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Just made this point on Clive and Antti's excellent reports.
A few years back I spoke with Fitz Hall (he was trying to get me to help on his A thing charity whatsit) when Gigi was in charge here. He told me that Gigi coached for about 20 minutes a session (through an interpreter) and then set up 11v11 60 minute games and told the players to take on board what he said and then sort themselves out during the practice games. He then made some observations on holding shape and that was it.
Fitz said that the running joke was that they coached themselves but he also said that the players bonded really quickly, the coach allowed them to play how they wanted to and in the positions they felt best in and as long as they did the basics they were allowed to get on with it on match day. Yes, we often shipped goals at the end of matches, that was a big problem but the policy under Gigi was to tell the players enough but not too much. We also played great football with a squad that before Gigi arrived looked like going down.
There does seem to be confusion on the pitch. Players out of natural positions. Unsure whether to hold a line or drop back or when to come inside. I am starting to think perhaps they are being asked to remember too much rather than just enough.
I have heard that Ramsey is a pretty intensive coach on training days. That makes me think perhaps in an effort to get them to do the right thing he is perhaps doing too much. Perhaps he need to say to players like Chery, ideally I want you wider left but if it's not happening then talk to Jet and others around you so that you all adapt if you see a hole in the middle to get into. There doesn't seem to be that reliance on players to sort themselves out.
So, what I am putting out there is... is Ramsey struggling sometimes because he is trying too hard?
I really enjoyed De Canio's time at QPR, but he had favourable circumstances when he had players like Akos Buzsaky and Rowan Vine bought for him, which favoured his counter attacking style.
He did well considering the language barrier issues, and perhaps had he overcome those over time, he'd have sorted the rest of the problems out too.
De Canio did a lot of shadow work on the players, particularly ensuring they understood their positions on the pitch for counter attacks, and they practised a number of set moves that helped them exploit the opposition on the break.
So in a sense, he gave those players a blue print that helped maximise their strengths, but he never really had a chance to work on their weaknesses. It was a short-term focused approach that worked and had a lot of potential at the time to grow into even better things, but we never got the opportunity to see that fulfilled.
There are also different approaches, some coaches are just that, they're coaches. They can coach from a syllabus or manual, and there's not a lot wrong with that. But then there are coaches who are also teachers, and Ramsey falls more into that mould. It takes time to develop players and make them understand what they need to do to fulfil their potential, and how to fill their potential. That could be a combination of working on strengths or adding bits and pieces to your arsenal, or working on weaknesses to round your skills. But each person and player is different.
The key question for Ramsey is whether he himself can develop the man management skills and play the politics to survive in football management, because that's what he lacks, and he has a self respect, pride and integrity that means he is unlikely to play those kind of games. It's admirable, but it may also be his downfall.
Fitz Hall is actually an excellent example. He is a player who had a long list of injury problems that was not managed correctly by any of his coaches. That needed specialist work to ensure he overcame those problems, particularly his hamstrings. He also had everything in his locker to be a top class defender, because he was tall, physical and still relatively quick. He looked intimidating and really should have bullied the Championship and become a decent Premier League player, but he fell well short of what he could have been.
For me, he needed some further tactical education defensively on positional awareness, that would have given him the extra edge and time and space to get on the ball. And then he needed some technical work on his basics, because his passing could and should have been so much better. Those two things combined would have also helped him with his clearances, because he often sliced or hooked balls out of play that he could have kept in possession or returned to a QPR player, but instead, was only ever in the main, able to put the ball out of play and retreat. But because nobody really worked on these things with him, he just stayed the same, and became more and more injured, and when that happens, it degrades the player if he doesn't have the other stuff to fall back on. Ramsey is the kind of man who would want to work on those things, because he is a coach and a teacher, whereas some coaches will simply work with what they have, or simply move the player on in a bid to spend money and try and find something better that sticks.
Charlie Austin and Matt Phillips both could have forced moves away from the club this summer, but they have seen the merit in getting another season of good quality education under their belt, as it would be more beneficial to their careers in the long run than picking up lots of money, potentially sitting on the bench elsewhere in the Premier League, and being in another relegation scrap. You could say the same about Leroy Fer, who after his move to Sunderland fell through, declared he was more than happy to stay.
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Are the players OVER coached? on 12:23 - Oct 26 with 1086 views
There is somebody who thinks that most training is not correctly tailored to football...
"If you want to improve as a player the most important thing is to improve the speed of your actions," Verheijen explained. "That proves football is an intensity sport and not an endurance sport. In endurance sports you need more and longer sessions and in intensity sports you focus on the quality of a session.
"If you want to increase your speed of actions, fatigue is your worst enemy. For every football session you need to be fresh and if you want to improve as a player you need to be fresh. In other words, 'less is more'. The only way a player can improve is with better training and not more training."
Are the players OVER coached? on 12:15 - Oct 26 by Neil_SI
No I don't think so personally.
I really enjoyed De Canio's time at QPR, but he had favourable circumstances when he had players like Akos Buzsaky and Rowan Vine bought for him, which favoured his counter attacking style.
He did well considering the language barrier issues, and perhaps had he overcome those over time, he'd have sorted the rest of the problems out too.
De Canio did a lot of shadow work on the players, particularly ensuring they understood their positions on the pitch for counter attacks, and they practised a number of set moves that helped them exploit the opposition on the break.
So in a sense, he gave those players a blue print that helped maximise their strengths, but he never really had a chance to work on their weaknesses. It was a short-term focused approach that worked and had a lot of potential at the time to grow into even better things, but we never got the opportunity to see that fulfilled.
There are also different approaches, some coaches are just that, they're coaches. They can coach from a syllabus or manual, and there's not a lot wrong with that. But then there are coaches who are also teachers, and Ramsey falls more into that mould. It takes time to develop players and make them understand what they need to do to fulfil their potential, and how to fill their potential. That could be a combination of working on strengths or adding bits and pieces to your arsenal, or working on weaknesses to round your skills. But each person and player is different.
The key question for Ramsey is whether he himself can develop the man management skills and play the politics to survive in football management, because that's what he lacks, and he has a self respect, pride and integrity that means he is unlikely to play those kind of games. It's admirable, but it may also be his downfall.
Fitz Hall is actually an excellent example. He is a player who had a long list of injury problems that was not managed correctly by any of his coaches. That needed specialist work to ensure he overcame those problems, particularly his hamstrings. He also had everything in his locker to be a top class defender, because he was tall, physical and still relatively quick. He looked intimidating and really should have bullied the Championship and become a decent Premier League player, but he fell well short of what he could have been.
For me, he needed some further tactical education defensively on positional awareness, that would have given him the extra edge and time and space to get on the ball. And then he needed some technical work on his basics, because his passing could and should have been so much better. Those two things combined would have also helped him with his clearances, because he often sliced or hooked balls out of play that he could have kept in possession or returned to a QPR player, but instead, was only ever in the main, able to put the ball out of play and retreat. But because nobody really worked on these things with him, he just stayed the same, and became more and more injured, and when that happens, it degrades the player if he doesn't have the other stuff to fall back on. Ramsey is the kind of man who would want to work on those things, because he is a coach and a teacher, whereas some coaches will simply work with what they have, or simply move the player on in a bid to spend money and try and find something better that sticks.
Charlie Austin and Matt Phillips both could have forced moves away from the club this summer, but they have seen the merit in getting another season of good quality education under their belt, as it would be more beneficial to their careers in the long run than picking up lots of money, potentially sitting on the bench elsewhere in the Premier League, and being in another relegation scrap. You could say the same about Leroy Fer, who after his move to Sunderland fell through, declared he was more than happy to stay.
I read an excellent article on Eric Dier last week where he was talking about the difference in coaching here and in Portugal when he was coming through. He said the coaches at Sporting would not criticise or shout if a player made a mistake, instead letting the player learn from them and make sure not to repeat them. He said they would go mad at you if you were disrespectful, but if you mis-placed a pass - they would leave you to it. He said they judged a player with potential not on how well or badly they did, but if they learned to not make the same mistakes twice without having to be told - it makes players think for themselves and then have better 'in-game' management...
Basically there's an argument to be made about 'over coaching' but I think it's more a domestic and wider issue at academy level rather than a QPR one
ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead
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Are the players OVER coached? on 13:19 - Oct 26 with 999 views
Are the players OVER coached? on 13:14 - Oct 26 by simmo
I read an excellent article on Eric Dier last week where he was talking about the difference in coaching here and in Portugal when he was coming through. He said the coaches at Sporting would not criticise or shout if a player made a mistake, instead letting the player learn from them and make sure not to repeat them. He said they would go mad at you if you were disrespectful, but if you mis-placed a pass - they would leave you to it. He said they judged a player with potential not on how well or badly they did, but if they learned to not make the same mistakes twice without having to be told - it makes players think for themselves and then have better 'in-game' management...
Basically there's an argument to be made about 'over coaching' but I think it's more a domestic and wider issue at academy level rather than a QPR one
You know what you may have something there.I noticed a while back watching the Portuguese national side. C.Ronaldo was the only one moaning to his teammates about bad balls and passes going astray. I thought at the time he was just an arrogant prick but it might be down to his time spent at UTD..
To me, the performances of Luongo, Hall, Chery, JET, Philipps and Austin at various times during prove Ramsey and his team are doing a fine job of coaching the team. The question marks lie with the in-game management and, as Neil said, the political side of running a club.
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Are the players OVER coached? on 15:08 - Oct 26 with 862 views
There could well be something in that, Bosh, and I think it could actually tie in with what Neil is saying about Ramsey being an educator.
I noticed how blown away Andy Impey is by the apparent sophistication of Ramsey's methods - when he was interviewed on Access all Rs a few weeks ago. It did make me wonder though: Impey didn't sound intimidated but it seemed like Ramsey was giving the players a lot to think about. So it could be a situation where absorbing all of that will take time, and while that's happening there could be quite a few bad performances along the way.
That could be the case with whatever has been going on with the defence, and I strongly believe it's the case for never changing the formation. Ramsey has been around long enough to know how to switch formation shirley? I think he's doggedly sticking to the existing one because he wants it to be second nature and he stills sees an awful lot of progress to be made with how the players are handling it.
But of course IF all of that is true it would require time and patience from lots of people which is getting more and more unlikely.
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Are the players OVER coached? on 19:26 - Oct 26 with 772 views
A couple of points, I think as a manager two key elements are getting your message across in the most basic way possible (Gigi) was good at this, means you keep players focus and a bit of freedom rather than trying to remember 101 points, it then becomes very rigid. They also need to be able to read the game, like you said bosh about moving inside if there is a gap. Ramsey has done this a couple of times like Villa away but more often than not misses it or scared to change.
I can only base on seeing 1 session in Dubai which was probably very different to sessions back home but it was basic certainly no over coaching going on.
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