| Cheating Saints? 08:33 - May 15 with 15662 views | frenzied |
Just wondered what your thoughts are on the issues re Southampton spying situation.
Should they be ejected from the play off final?
Im more concerned re the on field cheating that occurs with diving ,feigning injuries to have a player sent off etc.This goes completley unpunished,
Id expect a poss points deduction for Southampton at the start of next season but we will see
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| Cheating Saints? on 09:59 - May 15 with 9696 views | Daley_Lama |
Point deduction cannot be applied as EFL do not control Premiership. They can submit a request at best.
Saints have taken the Man City route and delayed things by asking for time to carry out internal investigation. Had EFL not granted, they would have sued EFL for improper conduct.
EFL have scheduled case before the final and if they find guilty and kick Saints out, appeal will follow and delay things even more.
EFL should have done case before the semifinal.
All a mess but for me, kick em out. Anything else and a Saints promotion to Prem sends the wrong message and precedent. |  |
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| Cheating Saints? on 10:06 - May 15 with 9676 views | Duckegg |
Let the match go a head and if they get promoted fine them and if they dont get promoted still fine them.. |  | | |
| Cheating Saints? on 10:12 - May 15 with 9669 views | dawlishdale |
| Cheating Saints? on 09:59 - May 15 by Daley_Lama |
Point deduction cannot be applied as EFL do not control Premiership. They can submit a request at best.
Saints have taken the Man City route and delayed things by asking for time to carry out internal investigation. Had EFL not granted, they would have sued EFL for improper conduct.
EFL have scheduled case before the final and if they find guilty and kick Saints out, appeal will follow and delay things even more.
EFL should have done case before the semifinal.
All a mess but for me, kick em out. Anything else and a Saints promotion to Prem sends the wrong message and precedent. |
If found guilty, (and it looks like they are guilty based on what's in the public domain so far); then they have to be kicked out to send a message to everyone else that cheating won't be tolerated. Highly unlikely that the junior member of the coaching staff undertook this on his own without the knowledge of more senior staff.
However; based on previous EFL decisions, Saints will probably get a fine and a slap on the wrist.
Feel sorry for the fans of both clubs. | | | |
| Cheating Saints? on 10:17 - May 15 with 9635 views | Trev |
I can't say I share the outrage of many on this to be honest. I accept it's not very sporting but every match I attend is littered with unsporting acts. I don't expect it to be any different off the pitch. | | | |
| Cheating Saints? on 10:17 - May 15 with 9631 views | D_Alien |
| Cheating Saints? on 09:59 - May 15 by Daley_Lama |
Point deduction cannot be applied as EFL do not control Premiership. They can submit a request at best.
Saints have taken the Man City route and delayed things by asking for time to carry out internal investigation. Had EFL not granted, they would have sued EFL for improper conduct.
EFL have scheduled case before the final and if they find guilty and kick Saints out, appeal will follow and delay things even more.
EFL should have done case before the semifinal.
All a mess but for me, kick em out. Anything else and a Saints promotion to Prem sends the wrong message and precedent. |
Perhaps a retrospective points deduction could be applied
Saints are a "yo-yo" club but the threat of a significant deduction (if promoted) on their return to the EFL would be a huge psychological Sword of Damocles over their heads
This would also allow time for an appeal without interfering with the date of the playoff final
Not even sure (if guilty) what they hoped to find out after a full season of video to watch and having played their opponents twice [Post edited 15 May 11:29]
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| Cheating Saints? on 12:24 - May 15 with 9450 views | EllDale |
Obviously wrong but two mitigating things strike me.
The Middlesbrough boss has been quoted as saying that the Southampton intern was apprehended early in the training session and so can’t have witnessed/recorded much.
And what I can gather Boro absolutely paralysed Saints for long periods of the first leg but couldn’t take their chances.
Punish Saints by all means but nothing too draconian under these circumstances.
Makes you wonder if this is commonplace yet undetected?
And how many clubs are now putting secure fencing around their training grounds? | | | |
| Cheating Saints? on 14:23 - May 15 with 9292 views | watford_dale |
| Cheating Saints? on 12:24 - May 15 by EllDale |
Obviously wrong but two mitigating things strike me.
The Middlesbrough boss has been quoted as saying that the Southampton intern was apprehended early in the training session and so can’t have witnessed/recorded much.
And what I can gather Boro absolutely paralysed Saints for long periods of the first leg but couldn’t take their chances.
Punish Saints by all means but nothing too draconian under these circumstances.
Makes you wonder if this is commonplace yet undetected?
And how many clubs are now putting secure fencing around their training grounds? |
Not the point, they specifically broke the no filming of opposition practices 72 hours before a match. Clearly broke the rules and must pay. They can put the play off final back until it is resolved and not rushed. | | | |
| Cheating Saints? on 14:37 - May 15 with 9265 views | D_Alien |
| Cheating Saints? on 14:23 - May 15 by watford_dale |
Not the point, they specifically broke the no filming of opposition practices 72 hours before a match. Clearly broke the rules and must pay. They can put the play off final back until it is resolved and not rushed. |
The logistics of putting back the playoff final are pretty unrealistic
The only possible reason for doing so would be to exclude Saints from playing, in which case, the options would be to either award promotion to Hull - which would be entirely unprecedented and draconian for a final and somehow against the spirit of the game - or have Middlesborough re-instated into the final, when their post-season arrangements may well not provide them with their best opportunity, i.e. players having left or not continuing to train
As per my post above, a retrospective fine and/or points deduction (should Saints win then imposed when they're next relegated) would solve the issue. The game goes ahead, even whilst an appeal by Saints can be made without any impact on the final itself | |
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| Cheating Saints? on 15:52 - May 15 with 9157 views | watford_dale |
| Cheating Saints? on 14:37 - May 15 by D_Alien |
The logistics of putting back the playoff final are pretty unrealistic
The only possible reason for doing so would be to exclude Saints from playing, in which case, the options would be to either award promotion to Hull - which would be entirely unprecedented and draconian for a final and somehow against the spirit of the game - or have Middlesborough re-instated into the final, when their post-season arrangements may well not provide them with their best opportunity, i.e. players having left or not continuing to train
As per my post above, a retrospective fine and/or points deduction (should Saints win then imposed when they're next relegated) would solve the issue. The game goes ahead, even whilst an appeal by Saints can be made without any impact on the final itself |
Hearing by independent disciplinary commission set for next tuesday. Efl stated that playoff final could be moved dependent upon results of hearing. Boro engaged services of nick de marco. | | | |
| Cheating Saints? on 16:04 - May 15 with 9141 views | D_Alien |
| Cheating Saints? on 15:52 - May 15 by watford_dale |
Hearing by independent disciplinary commission set for next tuesday. Efl stated that playoff final could be moved dependent upon results of hearing. Boro engaged services of nick de marco. |
Yes, aware of EFL statement, just seems the wrong option
The independent commission may adjudicate on culpability, but not the punishment if found guilty? The EFL could act more decisively (haha!!) by including the retrospective option, which lets the game go ahead and saves everyone a massive headache
Would this be unfair on Middlesborough? I very much doubt it, although some form of compo might be in order [Post edited 15 May 16:13]
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| Cheating Saints? on 17:10 - May 15 with 9072 views | judd |
Make Southampton go and live in Middlesbrough. |  |
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| Cheating Saints? on 17:40 - May 15 with 9031 views | watford_dale |
| Cheating Saints? on 16:04 - May 15 by D_Alien |
Yes, aware of EFL statement, just seems the wrong option
The independent commission may adjudicate on culpability, but not the punishment if found guilty? The EFL could act more decisively (haha!!) by including the retrospective option, which lets the game go ahead and saves everyone a massive headache
Would this be unfair on Middlesborough? I very much doubt it, although some form of compo might be in order [Post edited 15 May 16:13]
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Agreed the efl has to dish out the punishment and can do that on tuesday. Integrity should come before observing a timetable.
Leeds fined 200k for spying on derby, liverpool paid city 1m for hacking their database. | | | |
| Cheating Saints? on 18:33 - May 15 with 8984 views | D_Alien |
| Cheating Saints? on 17:40 - May 15 by watford_dale |
Agreed the efl has to dish out the punishment and can do that on tuesday. Integrity should come before observing a timetable.
Leeds fined 200k for spying on derby, liverpool paid city 1m for hacking their database. |
Oh i agree
It's just that "EFL" and "integrity" aren't familiar with each other, as we found to our cost [Post edited 15 May 18:44]
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| Cheating Saints? on 21:05 - May 15 with 8838 views | sxdale |
I would imagine that some sort of financial settlement will be agreed, I know it's different circumstances but Middlesbrough agreed approximately £2m with Derby County a few years back, don't know what the deal with Wycombe was.
I would suggest a fine of 25% of the increase in Premier League prize money. 50% chance of Boro beating Saints and 50% chance of them beating Hull. | | | |
| Cheating Saints? on 18:55 - May 19 with 8391 views | SaxonDale |
Thrown out of the Play-offs. Wow! |  | | |
| Cheating Saints? on 18:58 - May 19 with 8369 views | frenzied |
| Cheating Saints? on 18:55 - May 19 by SaxonDale |
Thrown out of the Play-offs. Wow! |
Multiple breeches..so not just spying on Mboro then…what a mess..and a 4 point deduction next season | | | |
| Cheating Saints? on 19:19 - May 19 with 8275 views | 442Dale |
| Cheating Saints? on 18:58 - May 19 by frenzied |
Multiple breeches..so not just spying on Mboro then…what a mess..and a 4 point deduction next season |
While agreeing with the requirement for a heavy punishment, the statement mentions additional breaches during the season.
Middlesbrough have benefitted from the most recent time it’s happened, will other clubs now ask why their results haven’t been overturned?
With no knowledge of what evidence there is of previous breaches, what if it happened before they played Millwall which ended in a 0-0 draw? Millwall dropping two points which would have seen them finish second above Ipswich (if Saints didn’t do it before they drew with Ipswich…)
Same with games that impact playoff places/relegation.
Edit: BBC report says games against Oxford and Ipswich - Oxford won! Point remains if further investigation reveals they’ve done it against other sides too. [Post edited 19 May 19:36]
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| Cheating Saints? on 19:19 - May 19 with 8271 views | dawlishdale |
Correct decision, if a somewhat surprising one. The EFL finally showing some balls in doing this.
Southampton admitting to doing this before during the season has probably cooked their goose. Imagine those behind the scheme will not be employed for long...potentially cost the club a fortune.
Now lets stop goalkeepers feigning injury during games. | | | |
| Cheating Saints? on 19:48 - May 19 with 8156 views | D_Alien |
| Cheating Saints? on 19:19 - May 19 by 442Dale |
While agreeing with the requirement for a heavy punishment, the statement mentions additional breaches during the season.
Middlesbrough have benefitted from the most recent time it’s happened, will other clubs now ask why their results haven’t been overturned?
With no knowledge of what evidence there is of previous breaches, what if it happened before they played Millwall which ended in a 0-0 draw? Millwall dropping two points which would have seen them finish second above Ipswich (if Saints didn’t do it before they drew with Ipswich…)
Same with games that impact playoff places/relegation.
Edit: BBC report says games against Oxford and Ipswich - Oxford won! Point remains if further investigation reveals they’ve done it against other sides too. [Post edited 19 May 19:36]
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This does indeed open up a multitude of worm-cans
As mentioned before in this thread, i disagree with the outcome, not least since it potentially skews several results which you allude to, but mainly due to the offence not really warranting the punishment. I've already set out what might've been the better punishment option
This is the EFL... unable to punish far more serious offenders whilst trying to look authoritative by going over the top with this one | |
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| Cheating Saints? on 20:04 - May 19 with 8106 views | blackdogblue |
| Cheating Saints? on 19:48 - May 19 by D_Alien |
This does indeed open up a multitude of worm-cans
As mentioned before in this thread, i disagree with the outcome, not least since it potentially skews several results which you allude to, but mainly due to the offence not really warranting the punishment. I've already set out what might've been the better punishment option
This is the EFL... unable to punish far more serious offenders whilst trying to look authoritative by going over the top with this one |
Contract Law…
Tickets are non refundable..
You purchase a ticket.. what if 37k+ say No…
Another point |  |
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| Cheating Saints? on 20:09 - May 19 with 8092 views | 442Dale |
| Cheating Saints? on 20:04 - May 19 by blackdogblue |
Contract Law…
Tickets are non refundable..
You purchase a ticket.. what if 37k+ say No…
Another point |
Wembley will probably be like any other football ground when a game doesn’t take place. No different to a postponement, all those tickets will be cancelled. | |
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| Cheating Saints? on 20:13 - May 19 with 8082 views | blackdogblue |
| Cheating Saints? on 20:09 - May 19 by 442Dale |
Wembley will probably be like any other football ground when a game doesn’t take place. No different to a postponement, all those tickets will be cancelled. |
Wembley policy extract..
1. Postponement of Match before kick-off
In the event of the postponement of a Match before you have entered the Ground, the Ticket will be valid for the rearranged playing of the Match.
Where a Match is postponed after Ticket holder(s) have entered the Ground, but before the Match has kicked-off, entry to the or any substitute Ground for the rearranged playing of the Match shall only be permitted on presentation of the Ticket and subject to compliance with any other requirements announced by The FA at the time.
Ticket purchaser(s) unable to attend the rearranged playing of the Match shall be entitled to a refund of the face value of Ticket (including any booking fee and related transaction charge). The procedure for obtaining such a refund shall be announced by The FA and more information is set out in paragraph 8 below.
Full link..
https://www.wembleystadium.com
[Post edited 19 May 20:15]
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| Cheating Saints? on 20:27 - May 19 with 8037 views | D_Alien |
| Cheating Saints? on 20:13 - May 19 by blackdogblue |
Wembley policy extract..
1. Postponement of Match before kick-off
In the event of the postponement of a Match before you have entered the Ground, the Ticket will be valid for the rearranged playing of the Match.
Where a Match is postponed after Ticket holder(s) have entered the Ground, but before the Match has kicked-off, entry to the or any substitute Ground for the rearranged playing of the Match shall only be permitted on presentation of the Ticket and subject to compliance with any other requirements announced by The FA at the time.
Ticket purchaser(s) unable to attend the rearranged playing of the Match shall be entitled to a refund of the face value of Ticket (including any booking fee and related transaction charge). The procedure for obtaining such a refund shall be announced by The FA and more information is set out in paragraph 8 below.
Full link..
https://www.wembleystadium.com
[Post edited 19 May 20:15]
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Depends how you define "The Match"
In this case, "The Match" is not the match that was advertised... but i agree in terms of the extra hassle involved, and given Soton's appeal, still not certain if a match will take place as scheduled | |
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| Cheating Saints? on 20:41 - May 19 with 7988 views | 442Dale |
| Cheating Saints? on 20:13 - May 19 by blackdogblue |
Wembley policy extract..
1. Postponement of Match before kick-off
In the event of the postponement of a Match before you have entered the Ground, the Ticket will be valid for the rearranged playing of the Match.
Where a Match is postponed after Ticket holder(s) have entered the Ground, but before the Match has kicked-off, entry to the or any substitute Ground for the rearranged playing of the Match shall only be permitted on presentation of the Ticket and subject to compliance with any other requirements announced by The FA at the time.
Ticket purchaser(s) unable to attend the rearranged playing of the Match shall be entitled to a refund of the face value of Ticket (including any booking fee and related transaction charge). The procedure for obtaining such a refund shall be announced by The FA and more information is set out in paragraph 8 below.
Full link..
https://www.wembleystadium.com
[Post edited 19 May 20:15]
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There won’t be a rearranged match.
It’d be like buying a ticket to see Oasis there, them splitting up and everyone getting a ticket for Taylor Swift instead.
The big issue here is the size of the punishment and the knock on effects. Tomorrow will be interesting. | |
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| Cheating Saints? on 21:07 - May 19 with 7940 views | watford_dale |
| Cheating Saints? on 20:41 - May 19 by 442Dale |
There won’t be a rearranged match.
It’d be like buying a ticket to see Oasis there, them splitting up and everyone getting a ticket for Taylor Swift instead.
The big issue here is the size of the punishment and the knock on effects. Tomorrow will be interesting. |
Premier league take note, this is how you deal with cheating. | | | |
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