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Ever since my son was... never conceived, because I've never had consensual sex without money involved... I've always kind of looked at you as... a thing, that I could live next to... in accordance with state laws.
So if we crack down on jokes about gay people today...we will right the wrongs done to different gay people in history? You said it yourself, society has moved on.
Here's my point, if I am sat in the pub with a bald person, a ginger person or a gay person I don't care. He's bald...so what. He's ginger...so what. He's gay...so what. I treat them all the same...because I actually believe in treating people equally. Unfortunately, when I say this, some people hear "I go gay bashing every weekend". Now what some people seem to want to do is say, he's bald...so what. He's ginger...so what. He's gay...right, no jokes and be hyper aware of his feelings. I'm sorry to say, but I believe that this special treatment/kid gloves (whatever you want to call it) is adding to the stigma in peoples minds that you talk of. IMO, the sooner we have a 'so f*cking what' attitude to people being gay, the sooner we lose what's left of any stigma. I want to get to a time where being gay is not a horrendous insult...because I don't think it is.
BTW, I was going to ask you to reply without using the word historical. Wish I had now
Oh and just to add - I don't see a dressing room full of footballers or a pub full of people singling out a gay person to be the constant butt of the jokes as OK...I see that as abuse. I see that as bullying.
I think we're essentially on the same page but there are a couple of things I'd take issue with. Firstly, of course you can't right the wrongs of history. I never suggested such and you've created a straw man to knock down there. But gay people ARE still persecuted, beaten and discriminated against for being gay. It's clearly not on the scale of historical abuses but it does still happen and would probably happen even more if legal protections weren't in place.
The cosy pub scene you've outlined is exactly how everyone should act of course. The fact is though that you'd be able to tell a ginger man is ginger and a bald man is bald just by looking at him. You'd have no such visual cue with a gay man. He'd have to be comfortable enough with you and your company for him to reveal that facet of himself to you and it'd be his choice whether to do so. Conversely of course it'd also be his choice to not reveal that facet of himself, either because he sees it is irrelevant and his business only or because he doesn't feel comfortable doing so because he fears people's reactions. And some of the attitudes displayed on this thread illustrate nicely why not all gay people ate comfortable revealing it.
I think we're essentially on the same page but there are a couple of things I'd take issue with. Firstly, of course you can't right the wrongs of history. I never suggested such and you've created a straw man to knock down there. But gay people ARE still persecuted, beaten and discriminated against for being gay. It's clearly not on the scale of historical abuses but it does still happen and would probably happen even more if legal protections weren't in place.
The cosy pub scene you've outlined is exactly how everyone should act of course. The fact is though that you'd be able to tell a ginger man is ginger and a bald man is bald just by looking at him. You'd have no such visual cue with a gay man. He'd have to be comfortable enough with you and your company for him to reveal that facet of himself to you and it'd be his choice whether to do so. Conversely of course it'd also be his choice to not reveal that facet of himself, either because he sees it is irrelevant and his business only or because he doesn't feel comfortable doing so because he fears people's reactions. And some of the attitudes displayed on this thread illustrate nicely why not all gay people ate comfortable revealing it.
Yes, maybe it was a straw man. I apologise. I am all for legal protections that stop people being persecuted, beaten and discriminated against. And I do believe we have the same goals (people being accepted by society) we may just see different routes to get there.
Right, now, in the pub, did I see the gay fella walk in? coz they have a tendency to 'mince' and greet people with a 'cooee'...I think I'd know if I saw him walk in (disclaimer- that was a joke) Joking aside, I may be wrong, but I believe the easiest way to get to cosy pub scene is to have treat everyone the same. I believe jokes and humour are one of the best ways to break down walls between people. And yes I know jokes can be used to bully people, but it's the bullying that's the problem IMO, not the jokes.
You are easy to disagree with, ECB. (I don't mean you talk sh*t...I mean you don't get angry.)
[Post edited 30 Jul 2017 13:12]
Good luck, Mr Cooper
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Alfie Vs homophobia on 13:48 - Jul 30 with 2545 views
Yes, maybe it was a straw man. I apologise. I am all for legal protections that stop people being persecuted, beaten and discriminated against. And I do believe we have the same goals (people being accepted by society) we may just see different routes to get there.
Right, now, in the pub, did I see the gay fella walk in? coz they have a tendency to 'mince' and greet people with a 'cooee'...I think I'd know if I saw him walk in (disclaimer- that was a joke) Joking aside, I may be wrong, but I believe the easiest way to get to cosy pub scene is to have treat everyone the same. I believe jokes and humour are one of the best ways to break down walls between people. And yes I know jokes can be used to bully people, but it's the bullying that's the problem IMO, not the jokes.
You are easy to disagree with, ECB. (I don't mean you talk sh*t...I mean you don't get angry.)
[Post edited 30 Jul 2017 13:12]
I gave up getting angry at people on the internet years ago. Anyway, like you said, it seems we share the goal but not necessarily the method of achieving it. The only problem with the "treat everyone the same" mantra is that some use it to justify the bullying and worse that you so rightly condemn.
I gave up getting angry at people on the internet years ago. Anyway, like you said, it seems we share the goal but not necessarily the method of achieving it. The only problem with the "treat everyone the same" mantra is that some use it to justify the bullying and worse that you so rightly condemn.
[Post edited 30 Jul 2017 14:08]
Now the world don't move to the beat of just one drum, what might be right for you, may not be right for some. It takes different strokes, innit.
Good luck, Mr Cooper
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Alfie Vs homophobia on 14:49 - Jul 30 with 2470 views
prejudice against race, disability or sexuality wrong, end of, individuals have no say over this, and should not be discriminated against. sadly there is inherent, historical views that need to be challenged that are centuries old and have probably done more harm than they have against gingers.
however, separate point in terms of religion imo, that is a choice.
and even more separate point with regard to this programme/rugby. what alfie did all good and makes him a role model etc no problems with that .. what I am interested in knowing is in the 10 yrs since he came out how many rugby players at a professional level are openly gay?
maybe it's time to reassess whether rugby really has moved on hugely on the back of his story?
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Alfie Vs homophobia on 14:59 - Jul 30 with 2449 views
it seems fairly obvious to me. Bald people and ginger people haven't historically been persecuted, criminalised, beaten up and worse for being bald or ginger. Thankfully society has mostly moved on from those days ( apart from a few hardy refuseniks, most of whom seem to have posted on this thread). Also being bald and ginger isn't exactly easy to hide so there's no issue with "coming out" in the same way as there is being gay. There's also no stigma attached to such things, as there still is in some people's minds about homosexuality.
Alfie Vs homophobia on 14:49 - Jul 30 by jacksfullaces
prejudice against race, disability or sexuality wrong, end of, individuals have no say over this, and should not be discriminated against. sadly there is inherent, historical views that need to be challenged that are centuries old and have probably done more harm than they have against gingers.
however, separate point in terms of religion imo, that is a choice.
and even more separate point with regard to this programme/rugby. what alfie did all good and makes him a role model etc no problems with that .. what I am interested in knowing is in the 10 yrs since he came out how many rugby players at a professional level are openly gay?
maybe it's time to reassess whether rugby really has moved on hugely on the back of his story?
Of course prejudice is wrong. Who said it wasn't? I'm talking about jokes.
Good luck, Mr Cooper
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Alfie Vs homophobia on 22:14 - Jul 30 with 2256 views
Ever since my son was... never conceived, because I've never had consensual sex without money involved... I've always kind of looked at you as... a thing, that I could live next to... in accordance with state laws.
Ever since my son was... never conceived, because I've never had consensual sex without money involved... I've always kind of looked at you as... a thing, that I could live next to... in accordance with state laws.
Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back.
1
Alfie Vs homophobia on 21:35 - Jul 31 with 2052 views
Alfie Vs homophobia on 21:16 - Jul 31 by Dr_Winston
Thay be some prejudice in this thread Doc. Not from me though. My view is there are many icons in the LGTB community but this guy seems to be a media tart of the worst kind. He even used his sexuality to sell Guinness! The result for me is he is bigging himself up rather than the cause he claims to portray. Either that or I dislike him because he is a head slapping Cardiff twonk. I am sure that has a bearing as well ;-)
You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
1
Alfie Vs homophobia on 05:33 - Aug 1 with 2013 views
Alfie Vs homophobia on 21:35 - Jul 31 by Private_Partz
Thay be some prejudice in this thread Doc. Not from me though. My view is there are many icons in the LGTB community but this guy seems to be a media tart of the worst kind. He even used his sexuality to sell Guinness! The result for me is he is bigging himself up rather than the cause he claims to portray. Either that or I dislike him because he is a head slapping Cardiff twonk. I am sure that has a bearing as well ;-)
TBF, I don't think that's what the Doc was saying. To throw accusations of prejudice out and not directly accuse someone, so they can defend themselves, would be the actions of a passive aggressive coward. And as a long time reader of this board I don't think the Doc is that.
Good luck, Mr Cooper
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Alfie Vs homophobia on 06:44 - Aug 1 with 1997 views
And the only reason he's on our screens is because he's come out as guy.
9 pages and counting
"come out as guy"
Guy Fawkes?...Burn him!
BTW, if you have a problem with this thread or it's length, the best course of action may be to ignore it. What you have done is added to it...you have made it longer.
[Post edited 1 Aug 2017 7:33]
Good luck, Mr Cooper
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Alfie Vs homophobia on 08:26 - Aug 1 with 1954 views
TBF, I don't think that's what the Doc was saying. To throw accusations of prejudice out and not directly accuse someone, so they can defend themselves, would be the actions of a passive aggressive coward. And as a long time reader of this board I don't think the Doc is that.
Oh I agree. I like the Doc. As I bumped the thread up again I just thought I would comment as I recognise I could have been deemed homophobic by some.
You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
1
Alfie Vs homophobia on 08:43 - Aug 1 with 1941 views
BTW, if you have a problem with this thread or it's length, the best course of action may be to ignore it. What you have done is added to it...you have made it longer.
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Very good.