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The Countdown begins. 23:28 - Nov 10 with 349060 viewspikeypaul



https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20190329T23&p0=1336&msg=Democr

1:19 pm today was the exact mid point from when the result that the Great British public had decided to leave the EU and the time 11pm March 29th 2019 that Democracy will be delivered.

Happy days.
[Post edited 25 Jun 17:01]

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The Countdown begins. on 18:41 - Sep 29 with 640 viewspeenemunde

The Countdown begins. on 18:18 - Sep 29 by trampie

Wales is a net exporter of energy and water.


No it is not. Ridiculous thing to say in regards to energy.
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The Countdown begins. on 18:47 - Sep 29 with 637 viewsjohnlangy

The Countdown begins. on 18:41 - Sep 29 by peenemunde

No it is not. Ridiculous thing to say in regards to energy.


Oh for God's sake peeny. Don't just say he's wrong. Check the facts. Wales already produces around twice the amount of energy we need.
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The Countdown begins. on 18:47 - Sep 29 with 636 viewsHumpty

The Countdown begins. on 18:41 - Sep 29 by peenemunde

No it is not. Ridiculous thing to say in regards to energy.


No it is not. Wales does export energy.
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The Countdown begins. on 18:53 - Sep 29 with 631 viewsHumpty

The Countdown begins. on 18:47 - Sep 29 by johnlangy

Oh for God's sake peeny. Don't just say he's wrong. Check the facts. Wales already produces around twice the amount of energy we need.


Correct.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29799716

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Wales#Energy_and_Utilities


"The average annual production of electricity in Wales is some 3,800 MW. Average annual electricity consumption is just over half of the annual production making Wales a net exporter of electricity"[b/]
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The Countdown begins. on 19:28 - Sep 29 with 605 viewspeenemunde

The Countdown begins. on 18:53 - Sep 29 by Humpty

Correct.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29799716

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Wales#Energy_and_Utilities


"The average annual production of electricity in Wales is some 3,800 MW. Average annual electricity consumption is just over half of the annual production making Wales a net exporter of electricity"[b/]


You need to check those facts and update them.
For example Abertbaw power station produces electricity for only part of the year.
Also mentions Wylfa.....do some research.
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The Countdown begins. on 20:04 - Sep 29 with 588 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 14:06 - Sep 29 by trampie

Argue against Brexit for Wales, English immigrants skewed the result.

When the home team won the referendum result in 1997, the majority of the electorate voted.


The majority of the electorate? Officially 40% voted, slightly more than 1.2 million with less than 560,000 voting yes.
Democratically speaking, I had to accept the result but 21 years later I am entitled to ask for another vote on it.
It still is a mystery to me how people can be solidly behind leaving the union but so pro EU. Take independence in one hand to sign it away with the other.
Should we go independent, how many government jobs could we lose overnight? M.O.D jobs, DVLA jobs, passport agency..... then what about the NHS and Police, how do we fund the public sector?
Wales is so far behind in infrastructure and investment we'd need to borrow hundreds of billions to get going and could we make a good job of it? Where is the will, the knowledge and the expertise?
I can find export figures to EU countries but I can't find any for England. How much does England buy from us and would that suffer if we left the Union AND joined the EU?

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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The Countdown begins. on 20:05 - Sep 29 with 588 viewsBytholWyn

Apart from the energy Wales currently produces it has a phenomenal resource in wind and tidal power. It wouldn't surprise me if the Tories refused to back the Tidal lagoon for fear of the impact (positive) it would have on the Welsh economy - with bigger schemes in the pipeline to the east and in north Wales. We also have stronger and more consistent winds and shallow waters - perfect for offshore wind farms (as off the north Wales coast already). If Denmark can produce half its electricity from an inferior resource what could Wales do? What was it Dylan Thomas said about ambition again? Said about Swansea - could well have said it about Wales as a whole.
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The Countdown begins. on 20:05 - Sep 29 with 586 viewsHumpty

The Countdown begins. on 19:28 - Sep 29 by peenemunde

You need to check those facts and update them.
For example Abertbaw power station produces electricity for only part of the year.
Also mentions Wylfa.....do some research.


Yes I know about Aberthaw and Wylfa. They did not generate half of the energy Wales produces.

Do you have evidence that Wales imports energy?
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The Countdown begins. on 20:14 - Sep 29 with 580 viewspeenemunde

The Countdown begins. on 20:05 - Sep 29 by Humpty

Yes I know about Aberthaw and Wylfa. They did not generate half of the energy Wales produces.

Do you have evidence that Wales imports energy?


Aberthaw & Wylfa were the biggest energy producers in Wales for decades.
Wylfa is no more and Aberthaw is on its last legs, and only produces a fraction of what it did previously.

What other big energy producers are there in Wales ?
[Post edited 29 Sep 20:31]
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The Countdown begins. on 20:46 - Sep 29 with 557 viewstrampie

The Countdown begins. on 20:04 - Sep 29 by Catullus

The majority of the electorate? Officially 40% voted, slightly more than 1.2 million with less than 560,000 voting yes.
Democratically speaking, I had to accept the result but 21 years later I am entitled to ask for another vote on it.
It still is a mystery to me how people can be solidly behind leaving the union but so pro EU. Take independence in one hand to sign it away with the other.
Should we go independent, how many government jobs could we lose overnight? M.O.D jobs, DVLA jobs, passport agency..... then what about the NHS and Police, how do we fund the public sector?
Wales is so far behind in infrastructure and investment we'd need to borrow hundreds of billions to get going and could we make a good job of it? Where is the will, the knowledge and the expertise?
I can find export figures to EU countries but I can't find any for England. How much does England buy from us and would that suffer if we left the Union AND joined the EU?


The turnout out was 50.22% of registered voters.

Continually being banned by Planet Swans for Porthcawl and then being reinstated.
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The Countdown begins. on 20:49 - Sep 29 with 550 viewstrampie

The Countdown begins. on 18:41 - Sep 29 by peenemunde

No it is not. Ridiculous thing to say in regards to energy.


https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/wels

It says ''Wales is a net exporter of electricity, meaning that as well as generating electricity for homes and businesses in Wales, it also generates electricity which is distributed across Great Britain''.

Continually being banned by Planet Swans for Porthcawl and then being reinstated.
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The Countdown begins. on 21:02 - Sep 29 with 538 viewsBytholWyn

"The country generated an estimated 38.8 TWh of electricity in 2016 and consumed approximately 16.1 TWh*. Wales is, therefore, a net exporter of electricity". In other words Wales, in 2016, generated more than twice as much energy as it consumed.

https://gov.wales/docs/desh/publications/171207-energy-generation-in-wales-en.pd
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The Countdown begins. on 21:10 - Sep 29 with 532 viewsHumpty

The Countdown begins. on 20:14 - Sep 29 by peenemunde

Aberthaw & Wylfa were the biggest energy producers in Wales for decades.
Wylfa is no more and Aberthaw is on its last legs, and only produces a fraction of what it did previously.

What other big energy producers are there in Wales ?
[Post edited 29 Sep 20:31]


Pembroke 2000 MW.

Connah's Quay 1420 MW.

There are others.
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The Countdown begins. on 21:26 - Sep 29 with 519 viewsBytholWyn

Gwynt y MΓ΄r produces 576MW - not to be sniffed at for an offshore wind farm - 4th largest in the world.
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The Countdown begins. on 23:16 - Sep 29 with 484 viewsthomas17

all this talk about electricity got me all dazed and in wonder

what does it have to do with the promised day 29 march? I say. just distraction from main issue and straw clutcher as the man of old times used to say
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The Countdown begins. on 00:08 - Sep 30 with 466 viewsexiledclaseboy

The Countdown begins. on 14:17 - Sep 29 by Catullus

Why then have leavers constantly been cast as racists and xenophobes? Why was immigration something always thrown up by remainers as they tarred leavers with the same brush when you say there's no proof?
Taking back control of our borders, remember?

Switzerland also has acces to the single market through a series of bilateral deals the like of which they won't let the UK have because they don't want us to leave and be better off....remember that part...the no cherry picking?


You’re tying yourself up into all sorts of intellectual knots recently. Contradiction upon contradiction upon contradiction.

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The Countdown begins. on 09:47 - Sep 30 with 409 viewsjohnlangy

The Countdown begins. on 20:04 - Sep 29 by Catullus

The majority of the electorate? Officially 40% voted, slightly more than 1.2 million with less than 560,000 voting yes.
Democratically speaking, I had to accept the result but 21 years later I am entitled to ask for another vote on it.
It still is a mystery to me how people can be solidly behind leaving the union but so pro EU. Take independence in one hand to sign it away with the other.
Should we go independent, how many government jobs could we lose overnight? M.O.D jobs, DVLA jobs, passport agency..... then what about the NHS and Police, how do we fund the public sector?
Wales is so far behind in infrastructure and investment we'd need to borrow hundreds of billions to get going and could we make a good job of it? Where is the will, the knowledge and the expertise?
I can find export figures to EU countries but I can't find any for England. How much does England buy from us and would that suffer if we left the Union AND joined the EU?


'Should we go independent, how many government jobs could we lose overnight? M.O.D jobs, DVLA jobs, passport agency.....

Catullus, just think about it. You're saying every single government job would disappear. to England presumably. So English Civil Servants would be administering our road tax, our passport needs, the English MOD would be administering all things to do with a new Welsh Defence organisation and so on ? Really ? If we had an Independent Welsh government do you not think we may also have a Welsh Civil Service ?

' then what about the NHS and Police, how do we fund the public sector? '

The REAL amount of Welsh taxes is around Β£30 billion (see a very recent post of mine). That's how we pay for these things. How else ?

'Wales is so far behind in infrastructure and investment we'd need to borrow hundreds of billions to get going and could we make a good job of it? Where is the will, the knowledge and the expertise?'

Correct. Welsh infrastructure is way behind where it should be. And it's only a few posts ago where I talked about all that Welsh Infrastructure spend happening in England not Wales. So, the 'will, the knowledge and the expertise' of Westminster governments has decided for decades to ignore Wales' needs and spend that money in England. Do you think they've made a good job of it ? And do you think they're suddenly going to change ?

I don't know how much England buys from us. I also don't know how much we buy from them.
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The Countdown begins. on 10:06 - Sep 30 with 399 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 09:47 - Sep 30 by johnlangy

'Should we go independent, how many government jobs could we lose overnight? M.O.D jobs, DVLA jobs, passport agency.....

Catullus, just think about it. You're saying every single government job would disappear. to England presumably. So English Civil Servants would be administering our road tax, our passport needs, the English MOD would be administering all things to do with a new Welsh Defence organisation and so on ? Really ? If we had an Independent Welsh government do you not think we may also have a Welsh Civil Service ?

' then what about the NHS and Police, how do we fund the public sector? '

The REAL amount of Welsh taxes is around Β£30 billion (see a very recent post of mine). That's how we pay for these things. How else ?

'Wales is so far behind in infrastructure and investment we'd need to borrow hundreds of billions to get going and could we make a good job of it? Where is the will, the knowledge and the expertise?'

Correct. Welsh infrastructure is way behind where it should be. And it's only a few posts ago where I talked about all that Welsh Infrastructure spend happening in England not Wales. So, the 'will, the knowledge and the expertise' of Westminster governments has decided for decades to ignore Wales' needs and spend that money in England. Do you think they've made a good job of it ? And do you think they're suddenly going to change ?

I don't know how much England buys from us. I also don't know how much we buy from them.


Firstly, apologies, I was wrong about the turnout but the fact remains just a smidge over 25% of the electorate voted for devolution and the gap between winning and losing was around 7000 votes, Clasie has an opinion about winning margins which would nullify the result.

John, yes we would have a Welsh civil service and many of the same people would be doing the same jobs, the question is always how do we pay for it? How much does Price and his masterplan think it will cost and can Wales afford it?
It always comes back to funding and as with Scotland, the IndyNats here always say we can pay for ourselves but our economy is accepted as being smaller than Scotlands. In fact this years figures say Scottish GDP is triple ours. Their IndyRef financial predictions were recently outed as massively overhyped on the back of an over estimation of oil revenue. If Scotland cannot fund itself, how can we?

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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The Countdown begins. on 10:14 - Sep 30 with 392 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 00:08 - Sep 30 by exiledclaseboy

You’re tying yourself up into all sorts of intellectual knots recently. Contradiction upon contradiction upon contradiction.


When it's the EU, there are nothing but knots but regardless, are you saying that taking back control wasn't a thing in the referendum? Again on the single market, other countries have deals that the EU won't give us, Norway has accepted free movement, we do not, the only way we can stay in the single market is if the EU agrees we do not have to accept free movement and it's a red line for them...that's ignoring the other red lines on both sides.
If we stay in the single market we effectively haven't left the EU because we will have accepted free movement, ECJ jurisdiction and we won't be able to negotiate trade deals with other countries outside the EU.
If the EU still has control over us, in any way, shape or form, how have we taken back control, how have we left?

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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The Countdown begins. on 10:24 - Sep 30 with 387 viewspikeypaul

180 AFLI

SIUYRL

1/4 million views give yourselves a pat on the back lads.

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The Countdown begins. on 10:27 - Sep 30 with 384 viewstrampie

The Countdown begins. on 10:06 - Sep 30 by Catullus

Firstly, apologies, I was wrong about the turnout but the fact remains just a smidge over 25% of the electorate voted for devolution and the gap between winning and losing was around 7000 votes, Clasie has an opinion about winning margins which would nullify the result.

John, yes we would have a Welsh civil service and many of the same people would be doing the same jobs, the question is always how do we pay for it? How much does Price and his masterplan think it will cost and can Wales afford it?
It always comes back to funding and as with Scotland, the IndyNats here always say we can pay for ourselves but our economy is accepted as being smaller than Scotlands. In fact this years figures say Scottish GDP is triple ours. Their IndyRef financial predictions were recently outed as massively overhyped on the back of an over estimation of oil revenue. If Scotland cannot fund itself, how can we?


The Welsh devolution result was 'bona fide', because the majority of the population that was eligible to vote voted for a Welsh Assembly, that's democracy it was a fair and just result.

You need to realise England is not a sovereign state, it does not own Government jobs in Wales [or Scotland for that matter].

GDP is not a measure of wealth, where I live in Wales it would be a very low GDP area, but there is no poverty only relative wealth, if Scotland went independent it would be one of the richest countries in the World, England does not own our currency or the Queen or Government institutions in Wales or Scotland, England is not an independent sovereign state.
Scotland would be a huge success as an independent nation that could easily fund itself.


In Wales lots of our businesses are registered in England so for admin tax purposes it would be registered as taxes raised in England, when its actually taxes raised in Wales.

Wales would be a huge success as an independent country, im surrounded by rich English people in my corner of Wales, they all want to live here, England has gone to the dogs.
[Post edited 30 Sep 10:35]

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The Countdown begins. on 10:32 - Sep 30 with 380 viewsHCMC

Repeat that 1st paragraph to the pro remain posters here please.

I take it you are happy for democracy run it’s course after the referendum result?
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The Countdown begins. on 10:49 - Sep 30 with 370 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 10:27 - Sep 30 by trampie

The Welsh devolution result was 'bona fide', because the majority of the population that was eligible to vote voted for a Welsh Assembly, that's democracy it was a fair and just result.

You need to realise England is not a sovereign state, it does not own Government jobs in Wales [or Scotland for that matter].

GDP is not a measure of wealth, where I live in Wales it would be a very low GDP area, but there is no poverty only relative wealth, if Scotland went independent it would be one of the richest countries in the World, England does not own our currency or the Queen or Government institutions in Wales or Scotland, England is not an independent sovereign state.
Scotland would be a huge success as an independent nation that could easily fund itself.


In Wales lots of our businesses are registered in England so for admin tax purposes it would be registered as taxes raised in England, when its actually taxes raised in Wales.

Wales would be a huge success as an independent country, im surrounded by rich English people in my corner of Wales, they all want to live here, England has gone to the dogs.
[Post edited 30 Sep 10:35]


I'm not arguing that the devo ref was a bona fide result, I am saying that I would like another vote on it as would very many people.
The cotradiction for me is very many remainers say the EU referendum was such a close result we should do it again, not that I've seen you claim that. But I believe you are pro EU and so is Price, very strongly so despite a bona fide result to leave.

England, Westminster, it is the employer of government jobs so effectively owns them. If it removed the DVLA from Wales all thiose jobs would stop. If we were independent we would have to start up our own version but it wouldn't emply as many and we would have to buy any and all eqipment needed once Westminster had removed all it owned, likewise for any other UK government jobs.
You say England is not a Sovereign state yet in the scenario Price envisages England would very much be Sovereign because the UK would cease to exist.
GDP is a measure of income, income to an independent Wales would be very much affected by independence and how many English people would still move to an indepedent Wales? Your claims about Scotland......even the SNP has gone quite on those since the lies about oil income surfaced.
You say you are surrounded by rich English people because England has gone to the dogs.....why has England gone to the dogs? That's an interesting point, would those Englsih people be here or stay here if Wales were independent of England but in the EU? Aren't those rich English people just pushing poor Weslh kids out of their homes, pushing up house prices?
As with Brexit all this debate throws up is more and nore questions and claims that neither of us can prove 100%. Only by doing it can we know for sure.
I believe we are better off staying in the union but outside of the EU, you would take the other route.
The exasperating thing for me is, despite a bona fide vote so may remainers don't accept brexit. In your case, you can push for independence and maybe one day there will be a vote on it and I will honour the result even if I disagree but I believe strongly that Wales is far more tied to England than we ever will be to the EU. I am British and Welsh and proud of it. One last thing, if the EU reformed properly and was just a trading bloc with no aspirations for "ever closer union" i would happily change my vote, on Welsh Independence I'm not sure there will ever be enough chance to alter my position.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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The Countdown begins. on 11:09 - Sep 30 with 366 viewstrampie

The Countdown begins. on 10:49 - Sep 30 by Catullus

I'm not arguing that the devo ref was a bona fide result, I am saying that I would like another vote on it as would very many people.
The cotradiction for me is very many remainers say the EU referendum was such a close result we should do it again, not that I've seen you claim that. But I believe you are pro EU and so is Price, very strongly so despite a bona fide result to leave.

England, Westminster, it is the employer of government jobs so effectively owns them. If it removed the DVLA from Wales all thiose jobs would stop. If we were independent we would have to start up our own version but it wouldn't emply as many and we would have to buy any and all eqipment needed once Westminster had removed all it owned, likewise for any other UK government jobs.
You say England is not a Sovereign state yet in the scenario Price envisages England would very much be Sovereign because the UK would cease to exist.
GDP is a measure of income, income to an independent Wales would be very much affected by independence and how many English people would still move to an indepedent Wales? Your claims about Scotland......even the SNP has gone quite on those since the lies about oil income surfaced.
You say you are surrounded by rich English people because England has gone to the dogs.....why has England gone to the dogs? That's an interesting point, would those Englsih people be here or stay here if Wales were independent of England but in the EU? Aren't those rich English people just pushing poor Weslh kids out of their homes, pushing up house prices?
As with Brexit all this debate throws up is more and nore questions and claims that neither of us can prove 100%. Only by doing it can we know for sure.
I believe we are better off staying in the union but outside of the EU, you would take the other route.
The exasperating thing for me is, despite a bona fide vote so may remainers don't accept brexit. In your case, you can push for independence and maybe one day there will be a vote on it and I will honour the result even if I disagree but I believe strongly that Wales is far more tied to England than we ever will be to the EU. I am British and Welsh and proud of it. One last thing, if the EU reformed properly and was just a trading bloc with no aspirations for "ever closer union" i would happily change my vote, on Welsh Independence I'm not sure there will ever be enough chance to alter my position.


There was another vote on the Welsh Assembly in 2011 to see if the Assembly should have law making powers in a range of different areas and the result was a overwhelming Yes, the people wanted the Assembly to have extra powers.

England would only be sovereign if it became an independent state, it would not be sovereign per se if just Wales broke away.


You believe we would be better off outside the EU but within the 'union', but what if the 'union' breaks up ?, lots of people in Wales and Scotland and quite a lot of people in N.Ireland don't want uber right wing policies but are forced to put up with uber right wing policies because of the way the English vote and the weight of numbers the English have forces Wales and Scotland to suffer such policies even though Wales and Scotland vote for different parties with different policies compared to the English, this could/even will lead to the breakup of the UK in time to come.

Continually being banned by Planet Swans for Porthcawl and then being reinstated.
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The Countdown begins. on 11:20 - Sep 30 with 357 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 11:09 - Sep 30 by trampie

There was another vote on the Welsh Assembly in 2011 to see if the Assembly should have law making powers in a range of different areas and the result was a overwhelming Yes, the people wanted the Assembly to have extra powers.

England would only be sovereign if it became an independent state, it would not be sovereign per se if just Wales broke away.


You believe we would be better off outside the EU but within the 'union', but what if the 'union' breaks up ?, lots of people in Wales and Scotland and quite a lot of people in N.Ireland don't want uber right wing policies but are forced to put up with uber right wing policies because of the way the English vote and the weight of numbers the English have forces Wales and Scotland to suffer such policies even though Wales and Scotland vote for different parties with different policies compared to the English, this could/even will lead to the breakup of the UK in time to come.


The 2011 vote only proved apathy with politics, a 35.63% turnout. The 63% in favour represents 517,113 people so roughly 1 in 7. I have to accept the result but you can't claim it proves the majority of Wales want Devo or independence.
Something I can agree with remainers on is the high turnout in the EU ref was partly a protest vote about politics but for the most part Welsh people have given up bothering with the WAG and just accept its being there as a fait accompli.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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