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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place 01:19 - Jan 1 with 11569 viewsMyFinalHeaven

1. DC United, which Levien owns and is the managing director of. They recently finished tied for last place in the 22 team MLS and scored the fewest number of goals. Last place, least amount of goals--talk about a parallel to us.

2. Memphis Grizzlies, which Kaplan owns and is the Vice Chairman of. Currently dead last in the Western Conference of the NBA.

3. And of course, us. Dead last in the EPL and like DC United, also dead last when it comes to goals scored.

This is a new low in sports ownership history. Never before has an individual or a group of individuals who owned 2 or more clubs ever had them all in last place like this. And these blokes own 3. Congrats on the accomplishment you stupid cvnts. It takes a special kind of incompetence and uselessness to achieve such a task, and somehow you two managed it.

What sticks out for me most is with the other football team they own besides ours, DC United, which has gone down a very similar path to SCFC since Levien took them over back in 2012. It's eerie almost in the similarities. In his first full season as owner in 2013 DC United finished dead last, and in every year of his ownership they've been in the bottom 4 of the league in terms of wage bills. And just like us, Levien has not put a cent into the club. Looking at DC United fans talk about their ownership on social media and on their message board, it's strikingly reminiscent of ours, with their supporters expressing utter hopelessness and frustration about how club brass don't give two fvcks about the club, how they only care about making money, and how even the bare minimum isn't being put in. Have a look at DC United's transfer spending sheet year by year, it's one of the most depressing things I have ever seen. In 6 years of ownership Levien has spent just £4.6m on players, and they had THREE SEASONS WHERE THEY DIDN'T EVEN SPEND A SINGLE DOLLAR ON PLAYERS:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/d-c-united/alletransfers/verein/2440

Levien has ran to the press and postured about how desperate he is to spend and win though. Check out what he said back in April 2013. The team would end up spending £0 on players that season:

“We are willing to spend what it takes to be competitive at the upper echelons of the league,” he said. “The revenue streams are still not there, but while we are mindful of that, we want to win. And we owe it to our fans and our own competitive nature to assemble a roster that can compete with anyone in the league.”

From: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soccer-insider/wp/2013/04/29/few-minutes-wit

Sound familiar? That's because it is. Remember what Levien said in his first conference after the takeover about how willing he was to spend, bragging endlessly about his "financial resources," how he wanted to "make a splash," and how we were no longer going to be a selling club or a club that players used as a stepping stone?:

"We will be relentless in our determination to continually improve this club - and we have the financial resources to do so. We will be competitive and we will outwork our opponents on the pitch and in the boardroom."

"We want to build a football club that is competitive...perhaps Swansea has been seen as a stepping-stone club for some players in the past, a chance to show what they can do in the Premier League before moving quickly on. Those days are over."

“I think Huw has a tremendous football mind and he’s proven that over more than a decade. We want to make sure Huw and the club have the resources to succeed. We want to make a splash."


But wait, it gets even worse. Let's not forget Levien also said the following:

"Steve and I have both said our first, second and third priority is what's going to help us on the pitch short and long-term."

"Our message to fans is we are very focused on winning and continued success."

"The biggest thing of all is that when we go out on that pitch we're competitive."

"It's something that I love, something that drives me to be involved in sports - you're in the game to win the game and that's why we're here."

We recognise this club means so much to so many people and we take the responsibility as owners very seriously. While we plan on being long-term owners we know the team belongs to the community. In essence, we see ourselves as guardians of the club but it belongs to the fans of Swansea City. One thing we want to be clear about is our priorities as owners. Priority number one, two and three is the performance of the team on the pitch. We will field a competitive team that will battle every week against the greatest teams and players in the world. We know there is always a sense of fear and trepidation when new owners arrive on the scene but we will do everything in our power to win your trust and ensure there is a long and bright future for Swansea City.


Given all this, and with Kaplan and Levien's utterly horrendous track record when it comes to sports ownership, it is absolutely appalling why Jenkins would sell to these two, especially when he's babbled so much over the years about how he wants to ensure Swansea City is in the right hands and continues to move forward when he eventually leaves. It's especially perplexing when you take into account that he had turned down John Jay Moores' attempt to purchase us, someone who actually has a somewhat successful history of owning a team with the San Diego Padres, which he owned from 1994 to 2008. How he could turn down Moores, or anyone really, for these two con men is absolutely incredible. My only guess is that Moores' offer did not include a guarantee he would stay on as chairman and remain in power like K&L's offer, and that Moores was looking to replace him with a proper DoF should he have taken over.
[Post edited 1 Jan 10:06]

Come on you Swans.

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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 01:23 - Jan 1 with 5769 viewsswan65split

Pity we cant tag a few people into this .
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 01:25 - Jan 1 with 5763 viewsFerrieBodde

Jason Levien is a total f ucking fraud. I've lived in the States for the better part of the last decade so I'm very familiar with the NBA and his time as an NBA agent, and it's not good. The guy was a flat out cancer and pretty much blacklisted from the league after falling out with team after team. The guy was an executive with the Kings, the 76ers, and the Grizzlies (in partnership with Kaplan), and he didn't last a year in any of those positions.

We're literally dealing with a man here who concocted a sob story in an effort to hurt and slander a rival agent. Back in 2004 Levien made one his clients (Mario Austin) go on television and cry crocodile tears about how his former agent (Bill Duffy) had forced him to sign with a team in Russia for his own financial gain. It turned out to be all lies. This is as scummy as it gets. You can read more about it here:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/grizzlies-ceo-jason-levien-fired-front-offi

As it says in that article, a league source described Levien as "just a bad guy." And that is exactly what he is. He is an absolute scumbag, and one of the most disingenuous, shameless, and deceitful liars I have ever seen.

From the time he worked in the NBA until he left, it was all about him. The nob is the quintessential rich kid, one that is sorely pretentious and arrogant--he grew up wealthy, never took responsibility or answered for any of his own mistakes, and was pretty much given the world. He was a power hungry control freak who thought he had all the answers and was always the smartest guy in the room. Every executive role he had ended up in flames with a power struggle, so he got fed up and decided to buy and manage his own teams. And just take look at how that's turned out. DC United and Swansea City have both been shambolic since he took over and are going down faster than a bloody lead balloon.

But you know what? Ultimately I blame Huw Jenkins in all of this. Levien and Kaplan are probably the two worst possible people to sell your sports team to, and somehow Jenkins did it. It literally would take just a 10, no 5 minute Google search to look up these two, look at their atrocious histories, and realize that they are bad news. Seriously. Any sort of hasty or even casual research of Jason Levien and Steve Kaplan would tell you full well the kind of fraudulent, swindler c unts they are. How Jenkins thought it was a good idea to sell to these two is beyond me.
[Post edited 1 Jan 10:14]
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 01:48 - Jan 1 with 5703 viewsChief

Not sport related, but we're lumbered with this charming fellow too:
https://www.denverpost.com/2007/12/21/robert-hernreich-part-sacramento-kings-own

Poll: Rate the ref's performance today

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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 01:51 - Jan 1 with 5694 viewsthereisnospoon

that press conference from levien saying how he was going to invest to make us competitive as possible and win is hysterical. i think i also recall him talking about how he was going to make us into a european qualifying team.

hard to qualify for europe when you're in the relegation spots isn't it mr. levien
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 01:51 - Jan 1 with 5694 viewsLord_Bony

All just venture capitalists.

Their only focus is on maximising profit.

They know nothing about our club or what we re about.

They are not investors.

PROUD RECIPIENT OF THE THIRD PLANET SWANS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD. "Per ardua ad astra"
Poll: iS tHERE lIFE aFTER dEATH

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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 01:52 - Jan 1 with 5686 viewsJoe_bradshaw

Can the Trust persuade them to buy Cardiff?

Planet Swans Prediction League Winner Season 2013-14. Runner up 2014_15.
Poll: How many points clear of relegation will we be on Saturday night?

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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 01:58 - Jan 1 with 5666 viewsFerrieBodde

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 01:48 - Jan 1 by Chief

Not sport related, but we're lumbered with this charming fellow too:
https://www.denverpost.com/2007/12/21/robert-hernreich-part-sacramento-kings-own


Scumbags like to associate with scumbags. This bloke was appointed as a director back in September of last year and according to the latest disclosure owns a stake in us that exceeds 5%. Nice to know that a wife beating felon is a part owner on the board of your football club.
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:06 - Jan 1 with 5637 viewsclloy2

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 01:25 - Jan 1 by FerrieBodde

Jason Levien is a total f ucking fraud. I've lived in the States for the better part of the last decade so I'm very familiar with the NBA and his time as an NBA agent, and it's not good. The guy was a flat out cancer and pretty much blacklisted from the league after falling out with team after team. The guy was an executive with the Kings, the 76ers, and the Grizzlies (in partnership with Kaplan), and he didn't last a year in any of those positions.

We're literally dealing with a man here who concocted a sob story in an effort to hurt and slander a rival agent. Back in 2004 Levien made one his clients (Mario Austin) go on television and cry crocodile tears about how his former agent (Bill Duffy) had forced him to sign with a team in Russia for his own financial gain. It turned out to be all lies. This is as scummy as it gets. You can read more about it here:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/grizzlies-ceo-jason-levien-fired-front-offi

As it says in that article, a league source described Levien as "just a bad guy." And that is exactly what he is. He is an absolute scumbag, and one of the most disingenuous, shameless, and deceitful liars I have ever seen.

From the time he worked in the NBA until he left, it was all about him. The nob is the quintessential rich kid, one that is sorely pretentious and arrogant--he grew up wealthy, never took responsibility or answered for any of his own mistakes, and was pretty much given the world. He was a power hungry control freak who thought he had all the answers and was always the smartest guy in the room. Every executive role he had ended up in flames with a power struggle, so he got fed up and decided to buy and manage his own teams. And just take look at how that's turned out. DC United and Swansea City have both been shambolic since he took over and are going down faster than a bloody lead balloon.

But you know what? Ultimately I blame Huw Jenkins in all of this. Levien and Kaplan are probably the two worst possible people to sell your sports team to, and somehow Jenkins did it. It literally would take just a 10, no 5 minute Google search to look up these two, look at their atrocious histories, and realize that they are bad news. Seriously. Any sort of hasty or even casual research of Jason Levien and Steve Kaplan would tell you full well the kind of fraudulent, swindler c unts they are. How Jenkins thought it was a good idea to sell to these two is beyond me.
[Post edited 1 Jan 10:14]


Absolutely spot on. This post sums up why the sell outs have become public enemy No 1. They knew exactly who they were selling the club to. No way is a hedge fund going to invest in the Swans, it's all about maximising money out. For this reason the sell outs should hang their heads in shame. But with millions in their respective bank accounts I doubt that will happen.
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:15 - Jan 1 with 5608 viewsclloy2

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 01:23 - Jan 1 by swan65split

Pity we cant tag a few people into this .


I suspect HJ didn't turn down Moores offer, it was the trust. Presumably the trust can confirm this.
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:18 - Jan 1 with 5600 viewsSwanseaman

The biggest decision of Huw Jenkins life, the decision that would decide his legacy, and instead of being completely open about it and involving everyone, he just messed it all up.

The trouble with con men is that they can make everything sound so perfect. A real person there will be inconsistencies, they will need to think over things. But a con man will always have a good answer ready. He should have known from the Tony Petty era, to involve the fans because there are those who would have have worked them out..

They should sell us on now because unlike in America, if they mess their investment up with us, we go down the leagues and as we go down, their value will plummet. If they (with the help of Huw), decide to sell on and look for new owners, new owners who have a much better background and are willing to invest, that must be the way forward and the best for everyone imo.
[Post edited 1 Jan 2:26]
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:19 - Jan 1 with 5591 viewslonglostjack

I really hope that The Swansea Council wakes up before it's too late. FFS don't let these guys own / lease a square inch of the Liberty.

Poll: Have our US owners improved Swansea City Football Club?

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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:23 - Jan 1 with 5583 viewsMyFinalHeaven

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:19 - Jan 1 by longlostjack

I really hope that The Swansea Council wakes up before it's too late. FFS don't let these guys own / lease a square inch of the Liberty.


Yup. My biggest fear is that these vultures end up getting a hold of the Liberty. It's absolutely imperative that the council keeps the stadium from them by any means necessary.

Come on you Swans.

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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:35 - Jan 1 with 5545 viewsSwanseaman

Jenkins in his moment of madness, and blinded by the money, looks to have been conned by these American investors. He was duped by these people, where he probably honestly thought that he was safeguarding Swansea City and leaving the club in safe hands. that wasn't the case

My point is that while many people believe that Jenkins is the monster, it is now becoming clear that the Americas are the ones who will bring us down. Jenkins has come clean now and revealed fully what they are like.

I think the main focus should now change to trying to oust these American investors and making sure they don't get their hands on the Liberty stadium..
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:37 - Jan 1 with 5528 viewsHumpty

If anyone has any sense of sympathy for Jenkins and the rest of the sellers, read this thread.

They were so desperate to sell, and keep the trust from knowing about it, that they sold our club to this type of scum.

That's what they did. Sold our club to the worst type of owners possible. For their own personal greed.

Xmastree and his other chums can comment if they like.
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:38 - Jan 1 with 5519 viewsHumpty

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:35 - Jan 1 by Swanseaman

Jenkins in his moment of madness, and blinded by the money, looks to have been conned by these American investors. He was duped by these people, where he probably honestly thought that he was safeguarding Swansea City and leaving the club in safe hands. that wasn't the case

My point is that while many people believe that Jenkins is the monster, it is now becoming clear that the Americas are the ones who will bring us down. Jenkins has come clean now and revealed fully what they are like.

I think the main focus should now change to trying to oust these American investors and making sure they don't get their hands on the Liberty stadium..


He wasn't f*cking duped.

He, and the others, didn't care. Bucks for Jenkins and the rest before we got relegated. Nothing mattered other than that.

Wake up.
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:48 - Jan 1 with 5507 viewsSwanseaman

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:38 - Jan 1 by Humpty

He wasn't f*cking duped.

He, and the others, didn't care. Bucks for Jenkins and the rest before we got relegated. Nothing mattered other than that.

Wake up.


I'm not sticking up for Jenkins, he is 100% to blame for selling to these people.
I'm saying that these Americans are the ones that we should be worried about, far more than Jenkins.
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:53 - Jan 1 with 5497 viewsFerrieBodde

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:35 - Jan 1 by Swanseaman

Jenkins in his moment of madness, and blinded by the money, looks to have been conned by these American investors. He was duped by these people, where he probably honestly thought that he was safeguarding Swansea City and leaving the club in safe hands. that wasn't the case

My point is that while many people believe that Jenkins is the monster, it is now becoming clear that the Americas are the ones who will bring us down. Jenkins has come clean now and revealed fully what they are like.

I think the main focus should now change to trying to oust these American investors and making sure they don't get their hands on the Liberty stadium..


"Jenkins has come clean now and revealed fully what they are like."

Not at all. Read what he said in the interview with WalesOnline. The prick STILL thinks the Yanks are the right people, 100%.

"Are you confident the club is in good hands with the Americans?

Jenkins: “Yes. 100 per cent. You have asked lots of questions, nobody can guarantee people are going to make the right decisions on our club every day of the week.

“When the pressure is on and people want instant success there is going to be a variety of things some are happy with some aren’t. We will see on the pitch whether it works or it doesn’t.

“But if we are truthful we haven’t got a clue whether it is going to work or not. That is what you learn in football: you can make as many decisions as you want. The fact is you have no idea if it is going to work. That is what experience brings you. You just have to sleep in the night and hope it works the following morning. That’s a fact. Anybody tells you any different they are not telling you the truth. That is where we are with that.

“But the question about them being safe and solid behind our club, yes, 100%. That’s all I can say.”


Figures given that they made him rich and are happily employing him on over half a mil a year. Scumbag.
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:58 - Jan 1 with 5492 viewsJack59

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:35 - Jan 1 by Swanseaman

Jenkins in his moment of madness, and blinded by the money, looks to have been conned by these American investors. He was duped by these people, where he probably honestly thought that he was safeguarding Swansea City and leaving the club in safe hands. that wasn't the case

My point is that while many people believe that Jenkins is the monster, it is now becoming clear that the Americas are the ones who will bring us down. Jenkins has come clean now and revealed fully what they are like.

I think the main focus should now change to trying to oust these American investors and making sure they don't get their hands on the Liberty stadium..


I've always felt that the real threat was from the Americans. What can we do about it?

Well, they could be ridiculed as much as possible, but only in a humorous way and it should be within the law. their personal credibility could be seriously damaged, and that would certainly be very unfortunate for them.
We also know all the individual investors who have given large sums to the fund, they may be far more sensitive to bad publicity than Kaplan and Levien.
I am certain that if decisive action is not taken in the coming months, to rid our club of these disgusting leeches, there will be little or nothing left of it two or three years.
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 03:00 - Jan 1 with 5485 viewsSwanseaman

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:53 - Jan 1 by FerrieBodde

"Jenkins has come clean now and revealed fully what they are like."

Not at all. Read what he said in the interview with WalesOnline. The prick STILL thinks the Yanks are the right people, 100%.

"Are you confident the club is in good hands with the Americans?

Jenkins: “Yes. 100 per cent. You have asked lots of questions, nobody can guarantee people are going to make the right decisions on our club every day of the week.

“When the pressure is on and people want instant success there is going to be a variety of things some are happy with some aren’t. We will see on the pitch whether it works or it doesn’t.

“But if we are truthful we haven’t got a clue whether it is going to work or not. That is what you learn in football: you can make as many decisions as you want. The fact is you have no idea if it is going to work. That is what experience brings you. You just have to sleep in the night and hope it works the following morning. That’s a fact. Anybody tells you any different they are not telling you the truth. That is where we are with that.

“But the question about them being safe and solid behind our club, yes, 100%. That’s all I can say.”


Figures given that they made him rich and are happily employing him on over half a mil a year. Scumbag.


But he has also said about all the things he wanted and obviously would have done if they weren't in charge, therefore he has revealed fully what they are really like.. that's how I see it.

He has revealed how pathetic they are..
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 03:04 - Jan 1 with 5466 viewsHumpty

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 02:48 - Jan 1 by Swanseaman

I'm not sticking up for Jenkins, he is 100% to blame for selling to these people.
I'm saying that these Americans are the ones that we should be worried about, far more than Jenkins.


I didn't say you were sticking up for him. I said he wasn't duped. He, and the other sellers, didn't give a f*ck. Selling before relegation was the only thing they were interested in.

I agree our present owners are now our major problem. Thing is there's not much we can do about that. Looking at the list of shit sports teams they own we're not going to be able to shame them out. They don't give a f*ck how hated they are.

The only thing we can do is pressure our trust to not give them any more control than than they already have. Do not sell anything to them.
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 03:09 - Jan 1 with 5453 viewsHumpty

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 03:00 - Jan 1 by Swanseaman

But he has also said about all the things he wanted and obviously would have done if they weren't in charge, therefore he has revealed fully what they are really like.. that's how I see it.

He has revealed how pathetic they are..


Do you not get it at all?

They didn't care. It's as simple as that. They were desperate for a big payday. Understandable but utterly wrong if you care two f*cks about the future of Swansea City.
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 03:12 - Jan 1 with 5458 viewsSwanseaman

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 03:04 - Jan 1 by Humpty

I didn't say you were sticking up for him. I said he wasn't duped. He, and the other sellers, didn't give a f*ck. Selling before relegation was the only thing they were interested in.

I agree our present owners are now our major problem. Thing is there's not much we can do about that. Looking at the list of shit sports teams they own we're not going to be able to shame them out. They don't give a f*ck how hated they are.

The only thing we can do is pressure our trust to not give them any more control than than they already have. Do not sell anything to them.


Sounds like we have to make sure they don't get their hands on the Liberty and that the trust keep as many shares as they can.

Our only hope is that with our club in the Premier, luckily we have the relegation system where clubs lose their value when relegated. that is our ace card with these unlike the American clubs they own?

I've read that their main interest is to get a hold of the Liberty stadium..
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 03:19 - Jan 1 with 5441 viewsSwanseaman

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 03:09 - Jan 1 by Humpty

Do you not get it at all?

They didn't care. It's as simple as that. They were desperate for a big payday. Understandable but utterly wrong if you care two f*cks about the future of Swansea City.


Uh?

I was saying that what Jenkins has revealed about the Americans in the last couple of days is how pathetic they really are.

Many posters here have said how badly the Americans are at running the club, well Jenkins has now given us the proof, that's all I'm trying to say..
[Post edited 1 Jan 3:23]
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 03:27 - Jan 1 with 5411 viewsHumpty

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 03:19 - Jan 1 by Swanseaman

Uh?

I was saying that what Jenkins has revealed about the Americans in the last couple of days is how pathetic they really are.

Many posters here have said how badly the Americans are at running the club, well Jenkins has now given us the proof, that's all I'm trying to say..
[Post edited 1 Jan 3:23]


We knew that the moment they sold the club to them. It was obvious. This was the worst type of owner you can have. Small time chancers hoping to make a quick buck. It really was obvious. And the sellers really didn't care. That's why they kept it all secret and did it on the sly.

I'm not having a go at you mate. Honestly. It just frustrates me when I see people saying Jenkins was duped. Just like it frustrates me when I heard people on the radio talking about 100M£ investment and taking us to the next level. It was never going to happen with people like this.

And the people who sold the club didn't care.
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Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 03:38 - Jan 1 with 5401 viewsSwanseaman

Kaplan and Levien now own 3 sports teams that are all in last place on 03:27 - Jan 1 by Humpty

We knew that the moment they sold the club to them. It was obvious. This was the worst type of owner you can have. Small time chancers hoping to make a quick buck. It really was obvious. And the sellers really didn't care. That's why they kept it all secret and did it on the sly.

I'm not having a go at you mate. Honestly. It just frustrates me when I see people saying Jenkins was duped. Just like it frustrates me when I heard people on the radio talking about 100M£ investment and taking us to the next level. It was never going to happen with people like this.

And the people who sold the club didn't care.


We didn't all just know. We didn't know for sure. We were all fed their bullshit, and most of us hoped they would turn out to be OK.

Now we know, now we know for 100% certain what they are like.

And I don't think Jenkins sold to them thinking they would turn out this bad. I'm not sticking up for him at all by saying that. He was wrong in what he did, but he would have been hoping they would have been a lot better than they have.

Do you think that Jenkins really knew how bad the Americas would turnout to be?
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