| The "Gay" Cake Case 10:25 - May 1 with 4982 views | westwalesed |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43955734
Really interesting case this. Whilst I don't agree with their views on Gay Marriage, I find myself sympathising with the bakers. I don't see why they should be legally forced to accept custom if it contravenes their religious views, especially as it is a Private business on their Private property.
Live and let live works both ways, is how I see it.
Thoughts? |  |
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| The "Gay" Cake Case on 10:38 - May 1 with 3106 views | Lohengrin |
You have to wonder what the attitude of the authorities would be had the bakery been Halal? How quick would they have been to prosecute? I don’t think anybody has to ponder that for too long, do they? |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| The "Gay" Cake Case on 10:46 - May 1 with 3099 views | westwalesed |
| The "Gay" Cake Case on 10:38 - May 1 by Lohengrin |
You have to wonder what the attitude of the authorities would be had the bakery been Halal? How quick would they have been to prosecute? I don’t think anybody has to ponder that for too long, do they? |
The principle should be the same across the board though - does the freedom to live to your religious views trump the right to not be discriminated against. think they key here is that it's on private property and is a private business. | |
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| The "Gay" Cake Case on 10:52 - May 1 with 3085 views | Lohengrin |
| The "Gay" Cake Case on 10:46 - May 1 by westwalesed |
The principle should be the same across the board though - does the freedom to live to your religious views trump the right to not be discriminated against. think they key here is that it's on private property and is a private business. |
The point I was making didn’t concern Moslems per se, it concerns the unequal application of the law. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| The "Gay" Cake Case on 10:58 - May 1 with 3072 views | omarjack |
Refusing making the cake is an act of discrimination imho.
It's like refusing service to blacks or asians etc.
If you oppose LGBT rights you have the right to express it. But you shouldn't intimidate people who happen to be a part of groups you don't like. Society cannot work that way because let's face it, most people hate a certain group of people. whether it's based on race/religion/sexuality/political party/gender etc which is unfortunate but true. It doesn't mean we're allowed to influence actual life decisions on your prejudices. If you want to spread hatred, go on Twitter.
So serve the damn cake and move on.. |  |
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| The "Gay" Cake Case on 11:34 - May 1 with 3048 views | Ambergambler |
Why didn't he make the cake himself, lazy beggar | | | |
| The on 14:07 - May 1 with 2971 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The "Gay" Cake Case on 10:46 - May 1 by westwalesed |
The principle should be the same across the board though - does the freedom to live to your religious views trump the right to not be discriminated against. think they key here is that it's on private property and is a private business. |
They key here is that they are a commercial operation, selling cakes for profit and have discriminated against someone on illegal grounds.
Is a pub allowed to ban black people? No. That's also private property and a private business.
Is a private faith school allowed to discriminate between girls and boys? No. Same thing.
Of course the freedom to live to your private religious views doesn't trump the right not to be discriminated against.
Not least because it's made up nonsense.
If there is any sort of higher being, the concept that the higher being gives a crap about gay marriage is laughable. These people use religion to hide ignorance and bigotry. With a bit of luck they'll be sent packing, have massive costs awarded against them for wasting everyone's time, and lose their business. [Post edited 1 May 2018 14:11]
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| The "Gay" Cake Case on 14:15 - May 1 with 2955 views | Highjack |
The stupid thing is they could have refused making the cake on the grounds that Bert and Ernie from the muppets are copyrighted. |  |
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| The "Gay" Cake Case on 14:20 - May 1 with 2949 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The "Gay" Cake Case on 14:15 - May 1 by Highjack |
The stupid thing is they could have refused making the cake on the grounds that Bert and Ernie from the muppets are copyrighted. |
It wouldn't have taken long to show examples of other cakes they had baked using copyrighted images I imagine. | | | |
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| The on 14:31 - May 1 with 2938 views | Lohengrin |
| The on 14:07 - May 1 by londonlisa2001 |
They key here is that they are a commercial operation, selling cakes for profit and have discriminated against someone on illegal grounds.
Is a pub allowed to ban black people? No. That's also private property and a private business.
Is a private faith school allowed to discriminate between girls and boys? No. Same thing.
Of course the freedom to live to your private religious views doesn't trump the right not to be discriminated against.
Not least because it's made up nonsense.
If there is any sort of higher being, the concept that the higher being gives a crap about gay marriage is laughable. These people use religion to hide ignorance and bigotry. With a bit of luck they'll be sent packing, have massive costs awarded against them for wasting everyone's time, and lose their business. [Post edited 1 May 2018 14:11]
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Let me throw a hypothetical at you: suppose a Hindu went into a bakers to order a cake for a party he was helping to organise to celebrate Diwali. An elaborate three-tier confection he wanted adorned with swastikas.
Now we know that the symbol has radically different connotations on the sub-continent than it does in Europe, nonetheless the baker takes one look at the design and says not on your nelly, I’m not making that. The customer cries foul and accuses the baker of disrespecting his religion, of discrimination. The baker doesn’t care and tells him to bugger off somewhere else.
Is it really the business of the police and courts to prosecute the baker? | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| The "Gay" Cake Case on 15:07 - May 1 with 2897 views | SoberBaker |
| The "Gay" Cake Case on 11:34 - May 1 by Ambergambler |
Why didn't he make the cake himself, lazy beggar |
Too busy mincing around? |  |
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| The on 15:19 - May 1 with 2885 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The on 14:31 - May 1 by Lohengrin |
Let me throw a hypothetical at you: suppose a Hindu went into a bakers to order a cake for a party he was helping to organise to celebrate Diwali. An elaborate three-tier confection he wanted adorned with swastikas.
Now we know that the symbol has radically different connotations on the sub-continent than it does in Europe, nonetheless the baker takes one look at the design and says not on your nelly, I’m not making that. The customer cries foul and accuses the baker of disrespecting his religion, of discrimination. The baker doesn’t care and tells him to bugger off somewhere else.
Is it really the business of the police and courts to prosecute the baker? |
It's not quite the same thing though Is it.
The swastika could be seen as an offensive symbol in its own right. So there would possibly be an argument on grounds of public decency. Although context would be everything. Asking a Jewish bakery to make it would be clearly offensive and the bakery would be within their rights to refuse.
The equivalent would be if the man in question had asked for a cake that had a symbol or words that could in itself cause a public decency offence. You'd be hard pushed to argue that about Bert and Ernie.
If a baker refused to bake a cake that said Happy Diwali because he was a a Christian, or Jewish or whatever, that would be breaking the law. | | | |
| The "Gay" Cake Case on 15:21 - May 1 with 2881 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The "Gay" Cake Case on 15:07 - May 1 by SoberBaker |
Too busy mincing around? |
Hilarious. How witty of you. | | | |
| The on 16:04 - May 1 with 2839 views | westwalesed |
| The on 14:07 - May 1 by londonlisa2001 |
They key here is that they are a commercial operation, selling cakes for profit and have discriminated against someone on illegal grounds.
Is a pub allowed to ban black people? No. That's also private property and a private business.
Is a private faith school allowed to discriminate between girls and boys? No. Same thing.
Of course the freedom to live to your private religious views doesn't trump the right not to be discriminated against.
Not least because it's made up nonsense.
If there is any sort of higher being, the concept that the higher being gives a crap about gay marriage is laughable. These people use religion to hide ignorance and bigotry. With a bit of luck they'll be sent packing, have massive costs awarded against them for wasting everyone's time, and lose their business. [Post edited 1 May 2018 14:11]
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So, would a bakery be able to discriminate if it was (hypothetically) baking cakes for free? I don't see how the money side of things makes a difference.
I also *think* and as I aid in previous posts I'm not too sure about this........that there is a difference in the "if they were black it would be discrimination argument". Is it not the case that here, the couple have been refused a wedding cake specifically. In other words, if they'd gone in and asked for anything else they wouldn't have been refused?
Who knows.
What I'm suggesting is that the Christians own a bakery and they're happy to serve anyone anything. They can't discriminate against the couple because they are gay, but can they refuse to serve them on the wedding cake specifically? As in, no, I'm not comfortable with that, it's up to me if I make it? Because by making it are you not tacitly supporting gay marriage, and that completely contravenes their beliefs?
I'm not a Christian by the way and I share your thoughts on it all being mythical bollocks! | |
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| The on 16:14 - May 1 with 2822 views | Lohengrin |
| The on 15:19 - May 1 by londonlisa2001 |
It's not quite the same thing though Is it.
The swastika could be seen as an offensive symbol in its own right. So there would possibly be an argument on grounds of public decency. Although context would be everything. Asking a Jewish bakery to make it would be clearly offensive and the bakery would be within their rights to refuse.
The equivalent would be if the man in question had asked for a cake that had a symbol or words that could in itself cause a public decency offence. You'd be hard pushed to argue that about Bert and Ernie.
If a baker refused to bake a cake that said Happy Diwali because he was a a Christian, or Jewish or whatever, that would be breaking the law. |
I’m sure you know what’s happening now is a test case brought by activists, Lisa. This isn’t somebody just wandering in off the street. The fact this action is being brought in Northern Ireland is not by accident either, it rather smacks of Thatcher taking on the NUM to be honest. Break the line there and all resistance will crumble. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| The on 16:48 - May 1 with 2780 views | theloneranger |
| The on 14:07 - May 1 by londonlisa2001 |
They key here is that they are a commercial operation, selling cakes for profit and have discriminated against someone on illegal grounds.
Is a pub allowed to ban black people? No. That's also private property and a private business.
Is a private faith school allowed to discriminate between girls and boys? No. Same thing.
Of course the freedom to live to your private religious views doesn't trump the right not to be discriminated against.
Not least because it's made up nonsense.
If there is any sort of higher being, the concept that the higher being gives a crap about gay marriage is laughable. These people use religion to hide ignorance and bigotry. With a bit of luck they'll be sent packing, have massive costs awarded against them for wasting everyone's time, and lose their business. [Post edited 1 May 2018 14:11]
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In 2011 Wetherspoons refused entry to one of their pubs to a group of Travellers, which included a policeman, priest and barrister.
In 2015 Wetherspoons were ordered to pay £24K compensation to this group of Travellers who they denied entry to
"The judge found that the pub had discriminated against the Travellers under the Equality Act 2010."
It was also called a "blatant act of discrimination against members of the Gypsy and Traveller communities" |  |
| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| The on 17:28 - May 1 with 2746 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The on 16:14 - May 1 by Lohengrin |
I’m sure you know what’s happening now is a test case brought by activists, Lisa. This isn’t somebody just wandering in off the street. The fact this action is being brought in Northern Ireland is not by accident either, it rather smacks of Thatcher taking on the NUM to be honest. Break the line there and all resistance will crumble. |
And I'm sure you realise that this couple of bakers are not funding legal action through every level of court.
It's a test case, because our laws are interpreted through case law.
This will establish the law going forward. As is the case in all similar situations.
All people are entitled to be treated equally under the law, free from discrimination on grounds of their gender, race, ethnicity, sexuality etc. It's really very simple. | | | |
| The on 17:38 - May 1 with 2739 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The on 16:04 - May 1 by westwalesed |
So, would a bakery be able to discriminate if it was (hypothetically) baking cakes for free? I don't see how the money side of things makes a difference.
I also *think* and as I aid in previous posts I'm not too sure about this........that there is a difference in the "if they were black it would be discrimination argument". Is it not the case that here, the couple have been refused a wedding cake specifically. In other words, if they'd gone in and asked for anything else they wouldn't have been refused?
Who knows.
What I'm suggesting is that the Christians own a bakery and they're happy to serve anyone anything. They can't discriminate against the couple because they are gay, but can they refuse to serve them on the wedding cake specifically? As in, no, I'm not comfortable with that, it's up to me if I make it? Because by making it are you not tacitly supporting gay marriage, and that completely contravenes their beliefs?
I'm not a Christian by the way and I share your thoughts on it all being mythical bollocks! |
The money side of things makes this a business which is therefore subject to anti discrimination legislation as it applies to business.
There's no wedding cake. The cake ordered said 'support gay marriage' or similar.
They refused saying that they were Christians and didn't believe in gay marriage.
Their Christianity had not previously prevented them from making Halloween cakes. Since it is a fluid type of Christianity. Turned on and off as it suits their particular form of ignorant bigotry. As is almost always the case. | | | |
| The on 17:50 - May 1 with 2724 views | Ambergambler |
Do you know what? I am so sick of this.
People are dying in parts of the world from starvation, children are being abused all over the world and we're on here arguing over a bloody wedding cake.
No doubt people will say it's not just a cake, it's the principle, it's about discrimination, blah di blah. Even so, get a grip ffs. [Post edited 1 May 2018 17:53]
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| The on 17:58 - May 1 with 2710 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The on 17:50 - May 1 by Ambergambler |
Do you know what? I am so sick of this.
People are dying in parts of the world from starvation, children are being abused all over the world and we're on here arguing over a bloody wedding cake.
No doubt people will say it's not just a cake, it's the principle, it's about discrimination, blah di blah. Even so, get a grip ffs. [Post edited 1 May 2018 17:53]
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Yeah, and there's war all over the world and we spend ages working out how many points we need to finish above Stoke as well and who should play right back.
Such is life. Your point is well made, but it's time people realised it's 2018 and rules that applied to society almost 2000 years ago are no longer a relevant reason to treat people badly. | | | |
| The "Gay" Cake Case on 18:03 - May 1 with 2703 views | Taliesin |
Justmake a shit cake, already! |  | | |
| The on 18:03 - May 1 with 2703 views | Ambergambler |
| The on 17:58 - May 1 by londonlisa2001 |
Yeah, and there's war all over the world and we spend ages working out how many points we need to finish above Stoke as well and who should play right back.
Such is life. Your point is well made, but it's time people realised it's 2018 and rules that applied to society almost 2000 years ago are no longer a relevant reason to treat people badly. |
They're not 'treating them badly' though, Lisa. They just don't want to make them a cake. | | | |
| The on 18:10 - May 1 with 2689 views | Highjack |
| The on 18:03 - May 1 by Ambergambler |
They're not 'treating them badly' though, Lisa. They just don't want to make them a cake. |
Yeah they aren’t discriminating against the people for being gay, they are disagreeing with the message on the cake.
I imagine if someone refused to make a cake that says “ban gay marriage” there wouldn’t be any sort of fuss. | |
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| The on 18:14 - May 1 with 2684 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The on 18:03 - May 1 by Ambergambler |
They're not 'treating them badly' though, Lisa. They just don't want to make them a cake. |
Nah. They're saying they're 'less'. They're saying that they don't believe other people are entitled to be treated equally.
Can't treat anybody more badly than that. Wars have been fought over it for centuries. Including in Northern Ireland of course. | | | |
| The on 18:27 - May 1 with 2668 views | Ambergambler |
| The on 18:14 - May 1 by londonlisa2001 |
Nah. They're saying they're 'less'. They're saying that they don't believe other people are entitled to be treated equally.
Can't treat anybody more badly than that. Wars have been fought over it for centuries. Including in Northern Ireland of course. |
You could say the bakers are being treated badly as their beliefs are held to be 'less'.
Live and let live and don't go looking for confrontation in this life.
As I've said I'll save my anger and frustration for what I believe to be more deserving causes. | | | |
| The on 18:39 - May 1 with 2648 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The on 18:27 - May 1 by Ambergambler |
You could say the bakers are being treated badly as their beliefs are held to be 'less'.
Live and let live and don't go looking for confrontation in this life.
As I've said I'll save my anger and frustration for what I believe to be more deserving causes. |
No one is saying they can't have their beliefs. They're just saying they can't break the law and use them as an excuse.
If they don't want to treat people equally then they shouldn't open a business where the law asks them to do that.
The gay bloke wasn't asking them to take part in a gay marriage. Nor to support it. He was just asking them to do what they advertise - put a message on a cake in return for money. If he'd asked them to celebrate gay marriage thesmselves then you may have a point. | | | |
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