| Roberto Martinez 21:38 - Jun 28 with 17845 views | SgorioFruit |
Turned Swansea City FC into one of the most attractive playing football clubs in the whole of the British isles. Massively influential in putting the foundations in for SCFC to become a model club that would rise from league 1 to Premier league in a matter of few years.
And he has also just beaten England in a World Cup game.
If you were told that was going to happen while he was playing for us down the vetch you would have thought you were dreaming.
I’d like to buy that man a pint.
Please discuss. |  |
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:45 - Jul 1 with 889 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:41 - Jul 1 by jack247 |
That’s nowhere near the point I’m making.
I’m saying that until they got greedy, which I don’t blame them for in itself, I just detest the way they sold to the people they did, behind the trusts back, rather than hold out for a deal that would have made them rich and progresses the club.
I’m playing devils advocate with Swancity in that if Martinez is a legend for what he did before he went to Wigan, the Jenkins is in the conversation for what he did before he sold out.
In reality, I don’t think either of them are, because of the way one left and the other sold. The way they went about it, not the fact it happened. |
What do you mean “the way one left”? He left.
So back to my original question. Did you think his comment which is akin to kissing the badge, bound him to this club forever then? What did he have to do in order to release himself from the verbal shackles you put on him? How on earth was he able to be afforded the freedom of every other player and manager in world football and have the ability to move on to a better job?
You don’t think he earned it for what he gave to us?
Making comparisons to other situations with other wildly different scenarios really isn’t doing much to answer that. |  |
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:45 - Jul 1 with 889 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:37 - Jul 1 by swancity |
I didn't say it was likely to have happened anyway? You're making things up again.
What we don't know and will never know is how things would have materialised. I'm not sure why you've brought Jenkins in to a debate about a young talented clever ambitious Manager who had an offer to go to another club that he couldn't turn down and that changed his immediate plans. |
If you can’t see why I’m asking why one who left in acrimonious circumstances and one who sold in acrimonious circumstances, after both were phenomenally successful, cant be compared, then I’m wasting my time talking to you.
And as an aside, we were always a stepping stone for Martinez, he just pretended we weren’t. |  | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:47 - Jul 1 with 881 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:45 - Jul 1 by E20Jack |
What do you mean “the way one left”? He left.
So back to my original question. Did you think his comment which is akin to kissing the badge, bound him to this club forever then? What did he have to do in order to release himself from the verbal shackles you put on him? How on earth was he able to be afforded the freedom of every other player and manager in world football and have the ability to move on to a better job?
You don’t think he earned it for what he gave to us?
Making comparisons to other situations with other wildly different scenarios really isn’t doing much to answer that. |
Your first question sums up this whole debate.
He left, that’s that. Same as any other manager leaving a club. No grey areas. Binary. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:52 - Jul 1 with 874 views | swancity |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:45 - Jul 1 by jack247 |
If you can’t see why I’m asking why one who left in acrimonious circumstances and one who sold in acrimonious circumstances, after both were phenomenally successful, cant be compared, then I’m wasting my time talking to you.
And as an aside, we were always a stepping stone for Martinez, he just pretended we weren’t. |
On the contrary I'm the one wasting my time. You win, I'm bored. Every job in football management is a stepping stone to the next one. One of two years at a Club is the average. Adios. | |
| Only an idiot would eat a turkey curry on Christmas day |
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:57 - Jul 1 with 867 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:47 - Jul 1 by jack247 |
Your first question sums up this whole debate.
He left, that’s that. Same as any other manager leaving a club. No grey areas. Binary. |
I have asked you.
I have noted he said he would have to be kicked out. So fully aware and inclusive of the scenario.
But then when I explored that with you, you said you never believed that and presumably saw it as normal rhetoric, yes? After all, it would be ludicrous to think after saying what he did, he would be bound here forever... yes?
So, if you did not take his comment as reality and did not expect him to stay for all eternity... at what point would he be afforded the right to leave tose verbal shackles? Its a simple question. [Post edited 1 Jul 2018 22:58]
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:10 - Jul 1 with 851 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:57 - Jul 1 by E20Jack |
I have asked you.
I have noted he said he would have to be kicked out. So fully aware and inclusive of the scenario.
But then when I explored that with you, you said you never believed that and presumably saw it as normal rhetoric, yes? After all, it would be ludicrous to think after saying what he did, he would be bound here forever... yes?
So, if you did not take his comment as reality and did not expect him to stay for all eternity... at what point would he be afforded the right to leave tose verbal shackles? Its a simple question. [Post edited 1 Jul 2018 22:58]
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No it wasn’t normal rhetoric. It wasn’t normal badge kissing either. You either don’t remember, didn’t experience or are choosing to ignore the buzz in the city during his time here and the devastation and betrayal the vast majority of fans felt at the time.
He was never going to stay forever, deep down we all knew that, but there was a genuine feeling he would give PL promotion a real go and that he would only leave for a genuinely big club.
The fact you thought it was run of the mill badge kissing is the crux of where we disagree. Were you posting on here at the time? | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:13 - Jul 1 with 842 views | Darran |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:10 - Jul 1 by jack247 |
No it wasn’t normal rhetoric. It wasn’t normal badge kissing either. You either don’t remember, didn’t experience or are choosing to ignore the buzz in the city during his time here and the devastation and betrayal the vast majority of fans felt at the time.
He was never going to stay forever, deep down we all knew that, but there was a genuine feeling he would give PL promotion a real go and that he would only leave for a genuinely big club.
The fact you thought it was run of the mill badge kissing is the crux of where we disagree. Were you posting on here at the time? |
Strange mind seeing as he’s our biggest fan over the last 25 years eh?
(His words) |  |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:15 - Jul 1 with 838 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:13 - Jul 1 by Darran |
Strange mind seeing as he’s our biggest fan over the last 25 years eh?
(His words) |
He’s entitled to his opinion, but it was anything but a run of the mill managerial departure. | | | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:24 - Jul 1 with 820 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:10 - Jul 1 by jack247 |
No it wasn’t normal rhetoric. It wasn’t normal badge kissing either. You either don’t remember, didn’t experience or are choosing to ignore the buzz in the city during his time here and the devastation and betrayal the vast majority of fans felt at the time.
He was never going to stay forever, deep down we all knew that, but there was a genuine feeling he would give PL promotion a real go and that he would only leave for a genuinely big club.
The fact you thought it was run of the mill badge kissing is the crux of where we disagree. Were you posting on here at the time? |
I remember perfectly well. I took it as what it was, knew a manager wouldn't stay forever just like I knew players kissing the badge and claiming they are jacks forever doesn't mean they choose the club over their own career opportunities. Yes there was a buzz, that's because we had marched through the divisions, its normal.
What constitutes ''giving the PL a good crack''? Thats a very fluid measurement of what made it ok for him to leave.
If you don't think it was run of the mill loyalty to the club rhetoric that happens all the time, then again I ask - why did you think he had less right to further his career than other managers and players? | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:25 - Jul 1 with 819 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:13 - Jul 1 by Darran |
Strange mind seeing as he’s our biggest fan over the last 25 years eh?
(His words) |
Without question. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 06:00 - Jul 2 with 785 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:24 - Jul 1 by E20Jack |
I remember perfectly well. I took it as what it was, knew a manager wouldn't stay forever just like I knew players kissing the badge and claiming they are jacks forever doesn't mean they choose the club over their own career opportunities. Yes there was a buzz, that's because we had marched through the divisions, its normal.
What constitutes ''giving the PL a good crack''? Thats a very fluid measurement of what made it ok for him to leave.
If you don't think it was run of the mill loyalty to the club rhetoric that happens all the time, then again I ask - why did you think he had less right to further his career than other managers and players? |
I haven’t said he did. I’ve said we had every right to feel betrayed and aggrieved. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive. In fact I’ve made that point, quite concisely, more than once.
Just like Sol Campbell. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 06:01 - Jul 2 with 781 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:25 - Jul 1 by E20Jack |
Without question. |
And this is why he can never be wrong | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 06:03 - Jul 2 with 780 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 06:01 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
And this is why he can never be wrong |
Because I am one of the biggest Swans fans of the last 25 years? (21 to be exact). we had attendances of 2,500 in the 1990's - I was there week in week out, have been an avid fan ever since. I would say anybody alive that regularly went while at our lowest ebb and still remains an avid fan today - is one of the biggest we have. You disagree then?
Now back on topic. I am not wrong simply because facts cannot be wrong. I have not given an opinion on this thread, there is no need. The facts speak for themselves. I have simply said 2 things that you are doing your best to disagree with in your own confused and contradictory style, lets refresh everybodies memory:-
1) If accuracy is the goal of a debate, which it always should be by definition - then it is not ok to be biased, lie or be intentionally misleading due to a vendetta. This s just common sense, no?
2) You can be a passionate fan and still see things how they are and be honest about situations. We see this every single day. You have seen this on this thread with many saying how well he is doing and how well he did for us as well as the Arsenal fans that are famed for their passionate honesty on their TV channel.
How are any of those things even close to being wrong? Here is a clue - they aren't. They are facts. Yet you want me to cede territory to the counter argument of two facts or you will make barbed jibes at me? Sorry not happening, I say it as it is and facts are facts.
Feel free to actually respond to either 1) or 2), I have already requested that once so your posts aren't lost in 'round about nothingness'. [Post edited 2 Jul 2018 6:40]
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| Roberto Martinez on 06:08 - Jul 2 with 776 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 06:00 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
I haven’t said he did. I’ve said we had every right to feel betrayed and aggrieved. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive. In fact I’ve made that point, quite concisely, more than once.
Just like Sol Campbell. |
So you now say he had every right to leave to better his career and we had no right to expect him to be bound to the club due to those words? You admit to not believing those words, due to the ridiculous events that would have to unfold in order for them to be true... yet you still feel he betrayed us and it be perfectly normal to not have control over your emotions 10 years later to a point where you cannot be honest about him?
You aren't making sense. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 09:32 - Jul 2 with 714 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 06:03 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
Because I am one of the biggest Swans fans of the last 25 years? (21 to be exact). we had attendances of 2,500 in the 1990's - I was there week in week out, have been an avid fan ever since. I would say anybody alive that regularly went while at our lowest ebb and still remains an avid fan today - is one of the biggest we have. You disagree then?
Now back on topic. I am not wrong simply because facts cannot be wrong. I have not given an opinion on this thread, there is no need. The facts speak for themselves. I have simply said 2 things that you are doing your best to disagree with in your own confused and contradictory style, lets refresh everybodies memory:-
1) If accuracy is the goal of a debate, which it always should be by definition - then it is not ok to be biased, lie or be intentionally misleading due to a vendetta. This s just common sense, no?
2) You can be a passionate fan and still see things how they are and be honest about situations. We see this every single day. You have seen this on this thread with many saying how well he is doing and how well he did for us as well as the Arsenal fans that are famed for their passionate honesty on their TV channel.
How are any of those things even close to being wrong? Here is a clue - they aren't. They are facts. Yet you want me to cede territory to the counter argument of two facts or you will make barbed jibes at me? Sorry not happening, I say it as it is and facts are facts.
Feel free to actually respond to either 1) or 2), I have already requested that once so your posts aren't lost in 'round about nothingness'. [Post edited 2 Jul 2018 6:40]
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And in your mind, that makes you ‘without doubt’ our biggest fan over the last 21 years? | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 09:34 - Jul 2 with 711 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 09:32 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
And in your mind, that makes you ‘without doubt’ our biggest fan over the last 21 years? |
Well our friend misquoted me, I said I was ONE of our biggest fans of the past 25 years (21 years).
How, in your mind, do you disagree then?
And also there are two glaring points you are ignoring. If you could respond to them too that would be spiffing. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 09:38 - Jul 2 with 706 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 06:03 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
Because I am one of the biggest Swans fans of the last 25 years? (21 to be exact). we had attendances of 2,500 in the 1990's - I was there week in week out, have been an avid fan ever since. I would say anybody alive that regularly went while at our lowest ebb and still remains an avid fan today - is one of the biggest we have. You disagree then?
Now back on topic. I am not wrong simply because facts cannot be wrong. I have not given an opinion on this thread, there is no need. The facts speak for themselves. I have simply said 2 things that you are doing your best to disagree with in your own confused and contradictory style, lets refresh everybodies memory:-
1) If accuracy is the goal of a debate, which it always should be by definition - then it is not ok to be biased, lie or be intentionally misleading due to a vendetta. This s just common sense, no?
2) You can be a passionate fan and still see things how they are and be honest about situations. We see this every single day. You have seen this on this thread with many saying how well he is doing and how well he did for us as well as the Arsenal fans that are famed for their passionate honesty on their TV channel.
How are any of those things even close to being wrong? Here is a clue - they aren't. They are facts. Yet you want me to cede territory to the counter argument of two facts or you will make barbed jibes at me? Sorry not happening, I say it as it is and facts are facts.
Feel free to actually respond to either 1) or 2), I have already requested that once so your posts aren't lost in 'round about nothingness'. [Post edited 2 Jul 2018 6:40]
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1. Accuracy is the goal of a debate, it’s not the goal of a football fan, which is essentially what the debate is about. It’s absolutely fine for football fans to be biased towards their team.
2. That’s exactly what I’ve done. I’ve given him maximum credit for what he achieved as a player and manager here. I’ve also said I felt betrayed when he left (irrational I know, see Campbell. S) and that caused resentment. I’ve saud I’ve mellowed towards him over time, but was seriously hacked off when it happened?
Were you on this board under a different username at the time? | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 09:43 - Jul 2 with 700 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 09:38 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
1. Accuracy is the goal of a debate, it’s not the goal of a football fan, which is essentially what the debate is about. It’s absolutely fine for football fans to be biased towards their team.
2. That’s exactly what I’ve done. I’ve given him maximum credit for what he achieved as a player and manager here. I’ve also said I felt betrayed when he left (irrational I know, see Campbell. S) and that caused resentment. I’ve saud I’ve mellowed towards him over time, but was seriously hacked off when it happened?
Were you on this board under a different username at the time? |
1) then you have again completely misunderstood the thread. Take it back to post one of our exchange. I say “of course it is”... then went on to clarify that it is absolutely not okay to be biased in a debate as tee goal of a debate is accuracy.
2) right? So what are you arguing about? If you are being honest about your opinion on Martinez then that’s no problem is it, we are discussing the ones that aren’t. Have you seriously not understood any of this debate?
No idea, I’m a busy man, I doubt it. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 09:47 - Jul 2 with 695 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 09:34 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
Well our friend misquoted me, I said I was ONE of our biggest fans of the past 25 years (21 years).
How, in your mind, do you disagree then?
And also there are two glaring points you are ignoring. If you could respond to them too that would be spiffing. |
In which case, correcting him would have been a better option than replying ‘without doubt’.
You’re essentially up there with me, Darran and 2497 others. Well done.
I did respond to them, I just thought that comment was so spectacular it deserved a reply of its own. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 09:51 - Jul 2 with 693 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 09:47 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
In which case, correcting him would have been a better option than replying ‘without doubt’.
You’re essentially up there with me, Darran and 2497 others. Well done.
I did respond to them, I just thought that comment was so spectacular it deserved a reply of its own. |
I didn’t pick up the nuance of his language, I clarified it pretty clearly in the post after it. He said “his words” which threw me. No need to correct him, he always lies.
I do t need congratulations, I am responding to someone who brought it up, I don’t wear it as a badge. Although if I am up there with you and Darren then that also makes you a binary observer doesn’t it?
You thought my comment that I am one of Swansea’s biggest fans is spectacular? Can you tell me why I am not then? Considering I am one of 10% that used to go in the basement leagues and have remained an avid supporter ever since, common sense would suggest that is far from spectacular and more factual wouldn’t it?
You have an odd sense of where to start arguments, they are almost always against upmost factual sense. It’s bizarre.
Happy to hear the counter. Over to you. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 09:57 - Jul 2 with 691 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 09:43 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
1) then you have again completely misunderstood the thread. Take it back to post one of our exchange. I say “of course it is”... then went on to clarify that it is absolutely not okay to be biased in a debate as tee goal of a debate is accuracy.
2) right? So what are you arguing about? If you are being honest about your opinion on Martinez then that’s no problem is it, we are discussing the ones that aren’t. Have you seriously not understood any of this debate?
No idea, I’m a busy man, I doubt it. |
1. The debate wasn’t about whether you need to be factual in debates. With all due respect, if it had been, I wouldn’t have bothered arguing. The debate was about how people felt about Martinez - his legacy, what he achieved here, the way he left, whether he is a legend, whether he betrayed us. Those are all intangibles and it’s absolutely ok to have your own opinion on them, whether that’s formed by pure facts, personal feelings, bias or whatever else is down to the individual.
2. I haven’t changed that stance during this debate. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:00 - Jul 2 with 682 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 09:57 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
1. The debate wasn’t about whether you need to be factual in debates. With all due respect, if it had been, I wouldn’t have bothered arguing. The debate was about how people felt about Martinez - his legacy, what he achieved here, the way he left, whether he is a legend, whether he betrayed us. Those are all intangibles and it’s absolutely ok to have your own opinion on them, whether that’s formed by pure facts, personal feelings, bias or whatever else is down to the individual.
2. I haven’t changed that stance during this debate. |
Yes it was. You need to read it again. I have painfully explained to you time and time again what my point was for the past 5 pages now. You have not read them it seems and have carried on regardless. You changed the debate along the way and even made it about yourself which was a bizarre twist. My point was simple, that debates (such as the one that was under way) had to have accuracy and there was no place for bias. You disagreed and said it was part of being a passionate fan - I factually informed you that you were wrong.
5 pages later these facts still remain. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 10:01 - Jul 2 with 682 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 09:51 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
I didn’t pick up the nuance of his language, I clarified it pretty clearly in the post after it. He said “his words” which threw me. No need to correct him, he always lies.
I do t need congratulations, I am responding to someone who brought it up, I don’t wear it as a badge. Although if I am up there with you and Darren then that also makes you a binary observer doesn’t it?
You thought my comment that I am one of Swansea’s biggest fans is spectacular? Can you tell me why I am not then? Considering I am one of 10% that used to go in the basement leagues and have remained an avid supporter ever since, common sense would suggest that is far from spectacular and more factual wouldn’t it?
You have an odd sense of where to start arguments, they are almost always against upmost factual sense. It’s bizarre.
Happy to hear the counter. Over to you. |
Because you didn’t pick up the nuance of his language. It’s quite significant.
Paraphrased, he sarcastically said something along the lines of ‘E20 is our biggest fan of the last 25 years’ you replied with ‘without doubt’ and later clarified it to 21 years.
Being our biggest fan and in the top 2500 are quite different things. I can only go on what you write. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:12 - Jul 2 with 667 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:01 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
Because you didn’t pick up the nuance of his language. It’s quite significant.
Paraphrased, he sarcastically said something along the lines of ‘E20 is our biggest fan of the last 25 years’ you replied with ‘without doubt’ and later clarified it to 21 years.
Being our biggest fan and in the top 2500 are quite different things. I can only go on what you write. |
Yes he was referring to an exchange we had long ago when he was also losing a debate so ended up questioning my “fandom” the similarities were quite stark in fact. I knew what he was on about and responded to him - I didn’t know you would see it as an opportunity to pick up and run with.
I wrote quite clearly ONE OF in the post you responded to, it’s quite a significant change, strange of you not to pick it up.
I don’t know all 2500 fans. Some I imagine are dead. That’s a base minimum, I would certainly say I was in the conversation when discussing biggest fan. But it is something you will never be able to prove. Unless you can of course? Feel free.
But it could provide you a topic of respite I suppose as you are floundering in the actual debate now that it turns out you haven’t even understood it from post 1. [Post edited 2 Jul 2018 10:16]
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| Roberto Martinez on 10:24 - Jul 2 with 655 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:00 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
Yes it was. You need to read it again. I have painfully explained to you time and time again what my point was for the past 5 pages now. You have not read them it seems and have carried on regardless. You changed the debate along the way and even made it about yourself which was a bizarre twist. My point was simple, that debates (such as the one that was under way) had to have accuracy and there was no place for bias. You disagreed and said it was part of being a passionate fan - I factually informed you that you were wrong.
5 pages later these facts still remain. |
I haven’t misunderstood that at all. Debates need to be factually accurate yes. I couldn’t say ‘Martinez got us relegated’ or ‘he left and went to manage Cardiff’. They would be factually inaccurate statements.
It’s absolutely ok for me to say Martinez let us down, betrayed us, pissed on his legacy or whatever. Those are opinions, they are biased (I wouldn’t expect a casual observer to share them) but like all opinions, they aren’t facts and are down to the individual. Opinions are the essence of debates. | | | |
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