| Academy. on 08:40 - Sep 19 with 1571 views | Vincent_Vega |
| Academy. on 10:23 - Sep 18 by jasper_T |
I think a downgrade is inevitable unless we get promoted. Financially we won't be able to manage it. It won't be the end of our academy and ability to produce local players (which is mostly what we're using now anyway) and there are some silver linings.
The u23s play PSV tomorrow in the international cup. Another perk of Cat One status, but not a competition we've done especially well in in recent years. Semi-final in 16-17 (losing to eventual winners Porto) and out in the group stage since.
SWANS U23s: Gregor Zabret, Connor Roberts, Aaron Lewis (Tom Plezier, 75), Ryan Blair (Adnan Maric, 66), Keston Davies (Capt), Joe Rodon, Daniel James, Jay Fulton, Oli McBurnie, Adam King, Kenji Gorre (George Byers, 76)
UNUSED SUBS: Alex Lang, Jack Evans, Liam Cullen, Keiran Evans. |
I heard somewhere that dropping form Cat 1 to Cat 2 would not save that much. To get a real saving it would be more 'beneficial' to drop to Cat 3. I'm sure if that happened then massive alarm bells would be ringing. |  |
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| Academy. on 09:04 - Sep 19 with 1558 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Academy. on 08:40 - Sep 19 by Vincent_Vega |
I heard somewhere that dropping form Cat 1 to Cat 2 would not save that much. To get a real saving it would be more 'beneficial' to drop to Cat 3. I'm sure if that happened then massive alarm bells would be ringing. |
Any idea why Newport, Bristol Rovers, Plymouth, Exeter, Cheltenham, and Torquay don't have Cat1 academies ?
Clue :: Its the same reason we wont have one once the premiership parachute monies are gone.
As Jasper says having to work harder with local talent is no bad thing. |  |
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| Academy. on 09:21 - Sep 19 with 1540 views | jackrmee |
| Academy. on 09:04 - Sep 19 by Kilkennyjack |
Any idea why Newport, Bristol Rovers, Plymouth, Exeter, Cheltenham, and Torquay don't have Cat1 academies ?
Clue :: Its the same reason we wont have one once the premiership parachute monies are gone.
As Jasper says having to work harder with local talent is no bad thing. |
But what about clubs that do have cat 1 with no parachute payments, like:
Derby
Blackburn
Middlesbrough
Reading
Sunderland |  |
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| Academy. on 10:25 - Sep 19 with 1520 views | jasper_T |
| Academy. on 08:40 - Sep 19 by Vincent_Vega |
I heard somewhere that dropping form Cat 1 to Cat 2 would not save that much. To get a real saving it would be more 'beneficial' to drop to Cat 3. I'm sure if that happened then massive alarm bells would be ringing. |
I don't know what the specific costs are like now but the original 2011 specifications put the range of costs per year for Cat One between £2.3m and £4.9m (think it was Gareth Vincent that said he thought ours cost £4m the other day). Cat Two was £1m to £1.8m, and Cat Three £315-540k. Grants cover big portions of these, I believe.
The breakdown between high and low spend puts a lot of the extra cash in Cat One down for player wages and recruitment, which we're clearly not spending as much on any more. Until the redundancies in the summer we were overstaffed for the minimum requirements for Cat One, as most top level academies seem to be.
The biggest savings would be to close all the junior age groups and just run a professional phase Cat Four "academy" and sell off the non-essential facilities. Hopefully it doesn't come to that. Our catchment area is one of the few advantages we have over many clubs, who tend to have to compete with 3/4/5 academies for young players, or in the case of London clubs many more.
https://www.goalreports.com/EPLPlan.pdf |  | | |
| Academy. on 10:34 - Sep 19 with 1507 views | jasper_T |
| Academy. on 09:21 - Sep 19 by jackrmee |
But what about clubs that do have cat 1 with no parachute payments, like:
Derby
Blackburn
Middlesbrough
Reading
Sunderland |
Reading spent twice their turnover in wages last season. Made an accounts loss of £21m and are throttled by FFP regulations. Being investigated over selling their stadium to themselves (like Derby), and their majority owners' team in Belgium was just declared bankrupt.
Sunderland are being bought out again, and still have another year of payments don't they? Boro had parachute payments last season. Both clubs still adjusting. | | | |
| Academy. on 10:40 - Sep 19 with 1501 views | Vincent_Vega |
| Academy. on 10:34 - Sep 19 by jasper_T |
Reading spent twice their turnover in wages last season. Made an accounts loss of £21m and are throttled by FFP regulations. Being investigated over selling their stadium to themselves (like Derby), and their majority owners' team in Belgium was just declared bankrupt.
Sunderland are being bought out again, and still have another year of payments don't they? Boro had parachute payments last season. Both clubs still adjusting. |
And Blackburn?? They're run by the Venkys and are a batsh!t outfit. | |
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| Academy. on 10:56 - Sep 19 with 1492 views | jasper_T |
| Academy. on 10:40 - Sep 19 by Vincent_Vega |
And Blackburn?? They're run by the Venkys and are a batsh!t outfit. |
Blackburn had over £120m in debt to their owners on their last accounts (probably more now), and pay less than half a million in interest each year. | | | |
| Academy. on 13:10 - Sep 19 with 1441 views | Vincent_Vega |
| Academy. on 10:56 - Sep 19 by jasper_T |
Blackburn had over £120m in debt to their owners on their last accounts (probably more now), and pay less than half a million in interest each year. |
But still have a cat 1 academy. Long relegated from the prem and a crazy ownership model who care little for the club.
Like I said the evidence points to you either keep the cat 1 or have a token cat 3 if you want to save money. | |
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| Academy. on 13:16 - Sep 19 with 1437 views | jasper_T |
| Academy. on 13:10 - Sep 19 by Vincent_Vega |
But still have a cat 1 academy. Long relegated from the prem and a crazy ownership model who care little for the club.
Like I said the evidence points to you either keep the cat 1 or have a token cat 3 if you want to save money. |
Who have they produced lately? Ben Williams now at Barnsley. Ryan Nyambe. John Buckley maybe on the verge of breaking through. You'd think with a season in League One they would have been pumping them out. | | | |
| Academy. on 13:17 - Sep 19 with 1436 views | glanmORJa_k |
This is Sunderland's last season for parachute payments.
Obviously, finance will play a huge part come next season should we not be in a promotion chase with regards there are thoughts of down grading our academy. Balanced against poor results through the season for both the 18's and 23's there will always be the challenge of the club's academy players playing every week against top quality youngsters.
If, for some, results are a guideline of success, the last 3 seasons for the 18's have seen them finish last from bottom in two seasons(16/17 and 18/19) and a sixth place finish in 17/18. But from the 15/16 season, Cabango, Cooper B, Cullen, Evans J, Garrick J, James D while Lewis A, Lewis Joe, and Thomas L have sampled first team football elsewhere, either on loan or at other clubs.
Obviously, first team appearances have been made since relegation from the PL but in just 3 seasons what that extra finance has seen is a marked increase in quality coming through the age groups up to 18's and then 23's football.
On the other hand, should there be a down grading to Cat 2 or 3 there will no doubt be a question mark over competing with Cat 1 clubs for their signatures. This conundrum was seen every season in the Swans in the development or centre of excellence, but from the 15/16 season the following U18 youngsters have seen first team football with the Swans or elsewhere, Thomas L(Forest Green), Samuel A(Stevenage), Davies O(Kilmarnock), Shephard L(Swans), Roberts C(Swans), Sheehan J(Swans), Bray A(Rotherham), Gorre K(Swans), Hedges R(Barnsley), Zabret G(Oldham).
There was no doubt that prior to the redundancies there was a situation of excess staffing levels within the academy and it remains to be seen if there has been significant financial saving.
What can be seen however as far as youngsters signing for the U18's are concerned is that there have been very few who have gone on to make first team appearances with the Swans or elsewhere while the scouting and recruitment in South and West Wales have produced quality returns. | | | |
| Academy. on 13:27 - Sep 19 with 1428 views | jasper_T |
To nitpick, Zabret's only game for Oldham so far has been in the Leasing.com Trophy against Liverpool u21s. He played against senior sides for our u21s in previous seasons. Not sure it really counts. | | | |
| Academy. on 14:03 - Sep 19 with 1403 views | glanmORJa_k |
no doubt Zabret's agent will be touting him as a first team player.
Zabret was a non-used substitute in PL season 2013/14 in matches v Stoke, when Vorm was serving a suspension after being s/off, or a few matches later when Vorm was injured v Stoke(h), Hull(h), Everton(h), Chelsea(a), Aston Villa(a), Man City(h). Nit-picking!! | | | |
| Academy. on 14:14 - Sep 19 with 1394 views | Vincent_Vega |
| Academy. on 13:16 - Sep 19 by jasper_T |
Who have they produced lately? Ben Williams now at Barnsley. Ryan Nyambe. John Buckley maybe on the verge of breaking through. You'd think with a season in League One they would have been pumping them out. |
I would presume there's a lot of competition for players and coaches up north with the amount of league clubs they have based nearby. Beyond that I don't know. | |
| Boycott Shampoo......Demand Real Poo!!! |
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| Academy. on 18:05 - Sep 19 with 1357 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Academy. on 13:17 - Sep 19 by glanmORJa_k |
This is Sunderland's last season for parachute payments.
Obviously, finance will play a huge part come next season should we not be in a promotion chase with regards there are thoughts of down grading our academy. Balanced against poor results through the season for both the 18's and 23's there will always be the challenge of the club's academy players playing every week against top quality youngsters.
If, for some, results are a guideline of success, the last 3 seasons for the 18's have seen them finish last from bottom in two seasons(16/17 and 18/19) and a sixth place finish in 17/18. But from the 15/16 season, Cabango, Cooper B, Cullen, Evans J, Garrick J, James D while Lewis A, Lewis Joe, and Thomas L have sampled first team football elsewhere, either on loan or at other clubs.
Obviously, first team appearances have been made since relegation from the PL but in just 3 seasons what that extra finance has seen is a marked increase in quality coming through the age groups up to 18's and then 23's football.
On the other hand, should there be a down grading to Cat 2 or 3 there will no doubt be a question mark over competing with Cat 1 clubs for their signatures. This conundrum was seen every season in the Swans in the development or centre of excellence, but from the 15/16 season the following U18 youngsters have seen first team football with the Swans or elsewhere, Thomas L(Forest Green), Samuel A(Stevenage), Davies O(Kilmarnock), Shephard L(Swans), Roberts C(Swans), Sheehan J(Swans), Bray A(Rotherham), Gorre K(Swans), Hedges R(Barnsley), Zabret G(Oldham).
There was no doubt that prior to the redundancies there was a situation of excess staffing levels within the academy and it remains to be seen if there has been significant financial saving.
What can be seen however as far as youngsters signing for the U18's are concerned is that there have been very few who have gone on to make first team appearances with the Swans or elsewhere while the scouting and recruitment in South and West Wales have produced quality returns. |
Our club did not produce half the players you have listed. We just bought other coaches hard work.
And we should not be spending our money producing players for other (lower) pro clubs. Nothing to celebrate there ...save a hole in our pockets....
Let me help ... since Ben, the only meaningful Swans players we have actually produced are Rodon and Roberts.
The rest reads like a list of excuses and even half truths. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Academy. on 22:31 - Sep 19 with 1291 views | BytholWyn |
| Academy. on 18:05 - Sep 19 by Kilkennyjack |
Our club did not produce half the players you have listed. We just bought other coaches hard work.
And we should not be spending our money producing players for other (lower) pro clubs. Nothing to celebrate there ...save a hole in our pockets....
Let me help ... since Ben, the only meaningful Swans players we have actually produced are Rodon and Roberts.
The rest reads like a list of excuses and even half truths. |
Forgotten McBurnie already then? |  | | |
| Academy. on 22:33 - Sep 19 with 1284 views | Dr_Winston |
| Academy. on 22:31 - Sep 19 by BytholWyn |
Forgotten McBurnie already then? |
Best to just ignore anything Kilks says on the subject of the Academy. If they're not Welsh down to the eighth generation they're not proper products according to him. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Academy. on 22:34 - Sep 19 with 1282 views | bonymine |
| Academy. on 22:31 - Sep 19 by BytholWyn |
Forgotten McBurnie already then? |
We signed him from Bradford you numpty 🙄 |  |
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| Academy. on 23:10 - Sep 19 with 1262 views | jasper_T |
Good performance and result tonight, could have won it in the end. Tactically spot on against a side that was technically very good.
Hopefully Jack Evans injury isn't too bad. He was feeling his groin at half time against Reading. Always a bit worrying when a player tries to play on, makes one challenge and hits the deck, game over. | | | |
| Academy. on 00:59 - Sep 20 with 1225 views | NotLoyal |
| Academy. on 18:05 - Sep 19 by Kilkennyjack |
Our club did not produce half the players you have listed. We just bought other coaches hard work.
And we should not be spending our money producing players for other (lower) pro clubs. Nothing to celebrate there ...save a hole in our pockets....
Let me help ... since Ben, the only meaningful Swans players we have actually produced are Rodon and Roberts.
The rest reads like a list of excuses and even half truths. |
Thing is the academy work with James, Garrick, McBurnnie etc has turned them into what they are today. Or maybe it's more preferable to not have them in a swans shirt due to their English heritage ? |  |
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| Academy. on 02:01 - Sep 20 with 1217 views | DJack |
| Academy. on 22:34 - Sep 19 by bonymine |
We signed him from Bradford you numpty 🙄 |
For our academy you numpty! |  |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Academy. on 10:09 - Sep 20 with 1107 views | jasper_T |
Buying an 18 year old with 30 senior games to his name for a six figure fee and finishing his development with a few seasons of u23s football and three loan spells isn't the best metric to judge the value of our Cat One u5-u21 EPPP academy by, especially as we are very unlikely to do the same thing in the near future. Unless we're promoted we don't have the spare cash.
Brentford do that sort of thing all the time and don't have an academy. They take in 18 year olds (like our goalkeeper Nathan Shepperd in the summer) and put them in a B team for a couple of years. Have had a lot of success doing it. | | | |
| Academy. on 12:07 - Sep 20 with 1061 views | BytholWyn |
| Academy. on 10:09 - Sep 20 by jasper_T |
Buying an 18 year old with 30 senior games to his name for a six figure fee and finishing his development with a few seasons of u23s football and three loan spells isn't the best metric to judge the value of our Cat One u5-u21 EPPP academy by, especially as we are very unlikely to do the same thing in the near future. Unless we're promoted we don't have the spare cash.
Brentford do that sort of thing all the time and don't have an academy. They take in 18 year olds (like our goalkeeper Nathan Shepperd in the summer) and put them in a B team for a couple of years. Have had a lot of success doing it. |
That's a tad disingenuous, given that several of the players that have earned them big bucks, including Mepham, were part of their academy before it was scrapped a few seasons ago.
The effectiveness of their new setup can only really be properly evaluated in a few years time. At the moment a lot of their success in developing players and selling them on is down to savvy recruitment, e.g. Maupay, rather than their B team setup. I also wonder how much their B team costs them? Is the cost saving over a Cat 1 academy that great? Especially as they can't draw on the £1million or so that a Cat 1 academy gets from the Premier League. | | | |
| Academy. on 12:50 - Sep 20 with 1048 views | glanmORJa_k |
| Academy. on 18:05 - Sep 19 by Kilkennyjack |
Our club did not produce half the players you have listed. We just bought other coaches hard work.
And we should not be spending our money producing players for other (lower) pro clubs. Nothing to celebrate there ...save a hole in our pockets....
Let me help ... since Ben, the only meaningful Swans players we have actually produced are Rodon and Roberts.
The rest reads like a list of excuses and even half truths. |
Rodon J, Cabango B, Cooper B, Cullen L, Evans J, Lewis A, Lewis J, Thomas L, Davies O, Roberts C, Sheehan J, Shephard L.
All of the above are former scholars with the Swans and have all made their lge debuts, either with the Swans or at other clubs after being released.
James D, signed as 16 year old from Hull, £72k
Garrick J, signed as a 17 yr old from Huddersfield College, played for Ossett Albion
Samuel A, signed as scholar at the age of 16 for Swans from Aberystwyth
Bray A, released by Swindon at age of 15, signed as scholar for Swans in 2010
Gorre K, a year at Man United, he signed for Swans as a free agent at the age of 18 after a trial
Hedges R, former Everton academy player, released, signed for Swans as 17 yr old from Flint Town in July 2013
Zabret G, 17 year old arrived on trial in January 2013, Swans later paid a fee for him. He had made senior apps for Domzale prior to signing for Swans.
Of the two players Swans paid a fee for(James, Zabret) just 3 players(Bray, Gorre, Hedges) had been tied to a league club as a schoolboy. | | | |
| Academy. on 13:18 - Sep 20 with 1038 views | jasper_T |
| Academy. on 12:07 - Sep 20 by BytholWyn |
That's a tad disingenuous, given that several of the players that have earned them big bucks, including Mepham, were part of their academy before it was scrapped a few seasons ago.
The effectiveness of their new setup can only really be properly evaluated in a few years time. At the moment a lot of their success in developing players and selling them on is down to savvy recruitment, e.g. Maupay, rather than their B team setup. I also wonder how much their B team costs them? Is the cost saving over a Cat 1 academy that great? Especially as they can't draw on the £1million or so that a Cat 1 academy gets from the Premier League. |
Their own estimate of the cost of running the B team was "definitely less than half" of the £2m or so they were spending before on Cat Two. And one of the strengths of the method is that they can evaluate how things are going on 3 year cycles instead of waiting a decade to see it the full pathway is working.
Their turnover before player sales is only £12.7m so that's a significant saving for them. They run at a small loss despite regular big money exits. | | | |
| Academy. on 17:00 - Sep 20 with 981 views | Badlands |
| Academy. on 18:05 - Sep 19 by Kilkennyjack |
Our club did not produce half the players you have listed. We just bought other coaches hard work.
And we should not be spending our money producing players for other (lower) pro clubs. Nothing to celebrate there ...save a hole in our pockets....
Let me help ... since Ben, the only meaningful Swans players we have actually produced are Rodon and Roberts.
The rest reads like a list of excuses and even half truths. |
Have to say that is the saddest comment I have read on the academy.
Buying a player for the academy for a few hundred thousand who then plays for the U23s, raising their profile and advertising bite the academy and the club, possibly the first team, makes a profit for us or is just helped a youngster become a professional at a lower level is IMO exactly what academies do.
Nothing to celebrate there ...save a hole in our pockets...??? Really?
In the last two seasons the academy players coming through will have saved the club £10s of millions in transfer fees to buy in those positions. Add to that the money received from transfers and the academy has paid its dues and sets itself up for a few years in the future.
Very few academies take 5 year olds and turn them into world class players. Just doesn't happen. |  |
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