| Colchester fans now 21:08 - Dec 7 with 5402 views | NotLoyal |
Being told if they boo the knee gesture they wont be welcome at the ground.
I wonder if we are not too far away from ejections from the ground for booing? |  |
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| Colchester fans now on 01:58 - Dec 8 with 551 views | KeithHaynes |
| Colchester fans now on 22:50 - Dec 7 by jasper_T |
The poppy is of course a political statement (just ask James McClean), and has been pushed more and more in recent years with the meaning of Remembrance twisted from the old "never again" concept to a strange worship of war the "blitz spirit" that you often see spouted from people who are a generation too young to have ever fought in a war. I forget which football club put out a commemorative kit this ear with a bomber on it ffs. |
I wear mine in memory of two friends I lost in the gulf war. No political reason Jasper. And maybe it’s only those that served and felt that fear in those times that would understand. James McLean is hated because he has no respect, he may think he has, but he kicks a ball about freely and has the freedom to say what he does thanks to others who enabled him to do so. |  |
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| Colchester fans now on 04:09 - Dec 8 with 505 views | Chief |
I'm shocked and embarrassed by some of the comments. All this nonsense about it being political& don't bring politics into football is frankly just mask because they are too cowardly to admit they are actually racist.
Football has plenty of non-footballing bodies / influences from war commemorations to even flags at games, religious connotations when we do a minutes silence, rainbow laces for LGBT laces etc etc.
Its a few seconds before kick off. Let the players do it if they want to, its not harming anyone and let us live harmoniously. Booing our own players before a game has kicked off is insane. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 4:27]
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| Colchester fans now on 04:49 - Dec 8 with 491 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Colchester fans now on 04:09 - Dec 8 by Chief |
I'm shocked and embarrassed by some of the comments. All this nonsense about it being political& don't bring politics into football is frankly just mask because they are too cowardly to admit they are actually racist.
Football has plenty of non-footballing bodies / influences from war commemorations to even flags at games, religious connotations when we do a minutes silence, rainbow laces for LGBT laces etc etc.
Its a few seconds before kick off. Let the players do it if they want to, its not harming anyone and let us live harmoniously. Booing our own players before a game has kicked off is insane. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 4:27]
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Dear me.
Can’t figure out whether you actually believe what you just typed or if you are just agitating. Either is very possible and both show a shocking level of understanding of the topic. Seems like people are desperate for others to be racist/fascist (delete as appropriate) in order to have something to continue to pretend to fight against, most don’t know the meaning of either word. There isn’t enough natural material... so they create their own. Really is quite sad. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 4:51]
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| Colchester fans now on 05:01 - Dec 8 with 490 views | angryjack |
| Colchester fans now on 04:09 - Dec 8 by Chief |
I'm shocked and embarrassed by some of the comments. All this nonsense about it being political& don't bring politics into football is frankly just mask because they are too cowardly to admit they are actually racist.
Football has plenty of non-footballing bodies / influences from war commemorations to even flags at games, religious connotations when we do a minutes silence, rainbow laces for LGBT laces etc etc.
Its a few seconds before kick off. Let the players do it if they want to, its not harming anyone and let us live harmoniously. Booing our own players before a game has kicked off is insane. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 4:27]
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Snowflake brigade |  | | |
| Colchester fans now on 07:23 - Dec 8 with 468 views | Chief |
| Colchester fans now on 05:01 - Dec 8 by angryjack |
Snowflake brigade |
Incorrect.
But thanks for your contribution. | |
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| Colchester fans now on 07:25 - Dec 8 with 467 views | Chief |
| Colchester fans now on 04:49 - Dec 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
Dear me.
Can’t figure out whether you actually believe what you just typed or if you are just agitating. Either is very possible and both show a shocking level of understanding of the topic. Seems like people are desperate for others to be racist/fascist (delete as appropriate) in order to have something to continue to pretend to fight against, most don’t know the meaning of either word. There isn’t enough natural material... so they create their own. Really is quite sad. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 4:51]
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Ok so can you actually point out which part of my post you disagree with and why?
Your post could have just been said in two words - "i disagree" yet has no actual basis. Just (admittedly eloquent) ramble. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 7:28]
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| Colchester fans now on 07:29 - Dec 8 with 458 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Colchester fans now on 07:25 - Dec 8 by Chief |
Ok so can you actually point out which part of my post you disagree with and why?
Your post could have just been said in two words - "i disagree" yet has no actual basis. Just (admittedly eloquent) ramble. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 7:28]
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Absolutely.
Every single person has made the point they support the message but find the way it is conveyed through a highly divisive political method something they cannot abide. Not a single person has spoken out about Kick it Out campaign and many would prefer that to take center stage instead as it holds no divisive political links.
You have taken that and responded with ''it's because you are racists'', which is one of the most bizarre interpretations you could make given what has been said. | |
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| Colchester fans now on 07:39 - Dec 8 with 444 views | Chief |
| Colchester fans now on 07:29 - Dec 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
Absolutely.
Every single person has made the point they support the message but find the way it is conveyed through a highly divisive political method something they cannot abide. Not a single person has spoken out about Kick it Out campaign and many would prefer that to take center stage instead as it holds no divisive political links.
You have taken that and responded with ''it's because you are racists'', which is one of the most bizarre interpretations you could make given what has been said. |
Yes people can say that and claim that (haven't actually seen many doing that mind), that's part of the mask.
Why is kneeling before kick off divisive? All our players do it - our whole team is united behind it.
It is the most obvious deduction of taking the conscious action of booing during this demonstration. Its quite telling that Millwall are of the two sides that have done this. | |
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| Colchester fans now on 07:44 - Dec 8 with 437 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Colchester fans now on 07:39 - Dec 8 by Chief |
Yes people can say that and claim that (haven't actually seen many doing that mind), that's part of the mask.
Why is kneeling before kick off divisive? All our players do it - our whole team is united behind it.
It is the most obvious deduction of taking the conscious action of booing during this demonstration. Its quite telling that Millwall are of the two sides that have done this. |
You could say that about anything though couldn't you. You could say ''Ahhh but you saying you support them is a cunning plan and part of the disguise, you are really a dirty racist''. Right? And it would have just as much merit.
As for why is it political, the knee and the fist is synonymous with BLM. They have divisive racist and anti-semitic roots with a mandate and a political ideology to destroy capitalism and the western family unit (their own words).
So again, if all you want is an anti racism message and the goal for everyone to get on board with (which they would)... why don't we ditch the political connotations? It seems like people would prefer the political division so they can accuse people of racism as opposed to taking away the division and focusing on the issue, which everyone would do happily. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 7:47]
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| Colchester fans now on 07:51 - Dec 8 with 436 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Colchester fans now on 22:50 - Dec 7 by jasper_T |
The poppy is of course a political statement (just ask James McClean), and has been pushed more and more in recent years with the meaning of Remembrance twisted from the old "never again" concept to a strange worship of war the "blitz spirit" that you often see spouted from people who are a generation too young to have ever fought in a war. I forget which football club put out a commemorative kit this ear with a bomber on it ffs. |
I wear a poppy and donate to the RBL to honour those before us, who fought and died so people like yourself can hold the opinion you have and have the right to protest peacefully and freely.
James McClean gets the attention he gets because he publicly backs the IRA while playing football on these shores, posting pictures of himself in a balaclava etc talking to his kids. The guy loves the attention and that's a fact. |  | | |
| Colchester fans now on 07:56 - Dec 8 with 434 views | Chief |
| Colchester fans now on 07:44 - Dec 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
You could say that about anything though couldn't you. You could say ''Ahhh but you saying you support them is a cunning plan and part of the disguise, you are really a dirty racist''. Right? And it would have just as much merit.
As for why is it political, the knee and the fist is synonymous with BLM. They have divisive racist and anti-semitic roots with a mandate and a political ideology to destroy capitalism and the western family unit (their own words).
So again, if all you want is an anti racism message and the goal for everyone to get on board with (which they would)... why don't we ditch the political connotations? It seems like people would prefer the political division so they can accuse people of racism as opposed to taking away the division and focusing on the issue, which everyone would do happily. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 7:47]
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Yea that's my take on this actually. You can see it from the type of people opposing it.
Can you enlighten me as to how or BLM is divisive / anti semitic? And can you please get me the link for that quote please?
Do you honestly think these people have actually taken the time to research this and their stance is purely political? Come on that's absolute nonsense. Although because some more well read ones have come up with the narrative you have, it gives them a cover for doing it.
Politics aside - if our players want to do it why not let them? Should we ditch other quasi political noj footballing demonstrations too then? Will remembrance commemorations before games be booed? Should our players be allowed to wear rainbow laces?
Do you think Ayew, Guehi etc at would be happy by our fans booing their stand? What frame of mind would that put them in just before ko? | |
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| Colchester fans now on 08:05 - Dec 8 with 425 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Colchester fans now on 07:56 - Dec 8 by Chief |
Yea that's my take on this actually. You can see it from the type of people opposing it.
Can you enlighten me as to how or BLM is divisive / anti semitic? And can you please get me the link for that quote please?
Do you honestly think these people have actually taken the time to research this and their stance is purely political? Come on that's absolute nonsense. Although because some more well read ones have come up with the narrative you have, it gives them a cover for doing it.
Politics aside - if our players want to do it why not let them? Should we ditch other quasi political noj footballing demonstrations too then? Will remembrance commemorations before games be booed? Should our players be allowed to wear rainbow laces?
Do you think Ayew, Guehi etc at would be happy by our fans booing their stand? What frame of mind would that put them in just before ko? |
https://nypost.com/2020/09/24/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel
As for do I think the players are doing it for political reasons, of course not. Which is why people need to be educated on what it is they are doing and why it is so divisive.
Being well read is not a requirement, this movement is not an old one and the origins very clear. But people are lazy and don't look beyond the name, see ANTIFA for that one.
Nobody is going to stop the players doing anything. Some may show their displeasure but that will be for the reasons I just highlighted.
EVERYONE will be on board with an anti racism message and always have been since the Kick It Out campaign began being a part of football.
Whether Guehi or Ayew will be happy isn't the barometer for what is right, if there was a dialogue with the fans then they would understand it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with politics, then they would have no reason to be unhappy.
Take politics away, keep the anti-racism message - whats the issue with that? The only reason people don't like the suggestion (after they have been made aware of the political divisiveness) is because they want the political side pushed. There is literally no other realistic reason. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 8:20]
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| Colchester fans now on 08:19 - Dec 8 with 418 views | Badlands |
| Colchester fans now on 21:36 - Dec 7 by Andy1300 |
Totally different kettle of fish |
There we are then  |  |
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| Colchester fans now on 08:27 - Dec 8 with 411 views | Chief |
| Colchester fans now on 08:05 - Dec 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
https://nypost.com/2020/09/24/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel
As for do I think the players are doing it for political reasons, of course not. Which is why people need to be educated on what it is they are doing and why it is so divisive.
Being well read is not a requirement, this movement is not an old one and the origins very clear. But people are lazy and don't look beyond the name, see ANTIFA for that one.
Nobody is going to stop the players doing anything. Some may show their displeasure but that will be for the reasons I just highlighted.
EVERYONE will be on board with an anti racism message and always have been since the Kick It Out campaign began being a part of football.
Whether Guehi or Ayew will be happy isn't the barometer for what is right, if there was a dialogue with the fans then they would understand it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with politics, then they would have no reason to be unhappy.
Take politics away, keep the anti-racism message - whats the issue with that? The only reason people don't like the suggestion (after they have been made aware of the political divisiveness) is because they want the political side pushed. There is literally no other realistic reason. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 8:20]
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That first link says that they've taken action to eradicate things like you've described. And the 2nd is their very valid and accurate view on the way the state of Israel acts. Do they even make reference to religion when condemning the acts of the Israeli state?
So if you believe our players aren't doing it for political reasons, what's wrong with freely allowing them to do if they want to? Kneeling before a football match is not divisive one bit.
Aren't the origins the institutionalised racism Black people experience? That is certainly clear and doesn't need much research.
Is there need to show such outward opposition that our players are obviously not going to like? Its not harming anyone is it?
No not everyone is onboard with the kick it out campaign. Are you trying to say racism doesn't exist amongst football fans?
Well people who intend to boo could always contact the club and explain this. If you have genuine concerns this is obviously the best way to air them rather than the more confusing and anonymous booing which if your intentions aren't racist could be misconstrued by the players.
I literally have no link to any political link, affiliation or inherent bias towards BLM or any political agenda they may or may not have so i have no desire to further their cause.
The kneeling is an anti racism message.
I just think its pure madness to boo our own players who want to do this. They are harming no one. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 8:29]
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| Colchester fans now on 08:36 - Dec 8 with 402 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Colchester fans now on 08:27 - Dec 8 by Chief |
That first link says that they've taken action to eradicate things like you've described. And the 2nd is their very valid and accurate view on the way the state of Israel acts. Do they even make reference to religion when condemning the acts of the Israeli state?
So if you believe our players aren't doing it for political reasons, what's wrong with freely allowing them to do if they want to? Kneeling before a football match is not divisive one bit.
Aren't the origins the institutionalised racism Black people experience? That is certainly clear and doesn't need much research.
Is there need to show such outward opposition that our players are obviously not going to like? Its not harming anyone is it?
No not everyone is onboard with the kick it out campaign. Are you trying to say racism doesn't exist amongst football fans?
Well people who intend to boo could always contact the club and explain this. If you have genuine concerns this is obviously the best way to air them rather than the more confusing and anonymous booing which if your intentions aren't racist could be misconstrued by the players.
I literally have no link to any political link, affiliation or inherent bias towards BLM or any political agenda they may or may not have so i have no desire to further their cause.
The kneeling is an anti racism message.
I just think its pure madness to boo our own players who want to do this. They are harming no one. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 8:29]
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They deleted their list of aims on their website about 6-8 weeks ago, because they were losing support with prominent figures, not because they had a revision of their insane aims. They have not altered their aims. As for the prominent Jewish groups taking mass offence against them - they are valid.
We are having a circular debate now and you are asking me the same question. If the players did a Hitler salute but didn't know what it represented, would that be OK?
Ignorance is not an excuse, everyone has had long enough now to look at what it is they are actually promoting. If it doesn't mean that to them then they need to realise that it does to many, so adapt it so it is not so divisive and politically charged. It really isn't hard.
They are making an anti-racism message not an anti capitalism and Marxist one, so why conflate the two when it is completely and utterly needless and not part of the message?
I have never heard a single dissenting voice against Kick It Out. Have you?
As I and others have said, I disagree with the booing because people will fall over themselves to pretend it's for sinister reasons. That's what they do in 2020, its a National sport. I would prefer them to chant ''Kick It Out'' to show they are on board with the message but not with the horrific politics. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 8:57]
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| Colchester fans now on 08:55 - Dec 8 with 383 views | Thornburyswan |
On the basis all the clubs will know exactly who has attended in these reduced fans areas & with wider in stadia camera coverage not sure it will be long before we start talking bans/revoking of season tickets. | | | |
| Colchester fans now on 09:05 - Dec 8 with 379 views | Glossolalia |
| Colchester fans now on 04:09 - Dec 8 by Chief |
I'm shocked and embarrassed by some of the comments. All this nonsense about it being political& don't bring politics into football is frankly just mask because they are too cowardly to admit they are actually racist.
Football has plenty of non-footballing bodies / influences from war commemorations to even flags at games, religious connotations when we do a minutes silence, rainbow laces for LGBT laces etc etc.
Its a few seconds before kick off. Let the players do it if they want to, its not harming anyone and let us live harmoniously. Booing our own players before a game has kicked off is insane. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 4:27]
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Can you truly not make the distinction between a politicised anti-racism message and an apolitical one?
Is it nonsense that BLM are political? And by extension, is it nonsense that using their method of protest is political too? Be serious man.
There is no doubt the BLM are left-wing extremists. They want to bring your child up in a communal environment; they want the end of the nuclear family. This has all been said months ago on this forum. Another poster, upon reading the manifesto on their official site, was too blinkered to realise it blatantly espoused extremist Marxism. It was truly laughable.
On a personal and political level, hardly anyone here would be on board with their ideas. Almost certainly yourself included, Chief.
That's embarrassing - the fact that so many thinking-intolerant indirectly support an ideology so far removed from their own, whilst at the same time attacking others as racist for noticing what is clear to see with a bit of thought.
You've flung some very serious accusations around and it comes from a clear lack of understanding. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 9:11]
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| Colchester fans now on 09:09 - Dec 8 with 373 views | Chief |
| Colchester fans now on 08:36 - Dec 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
They deleted their list of aims on their website about 6-8 weeks ago, because they were losing support with prominent figures, not because they had a revision of their insane aims. They have not altered their aims. As for the prominent Jewish groups taking mass offence against them - they are valid.
We are having a circular debate now and you are asking me the same question. If the players did a Hitler salute but didn't know what it represented, would that be OK?
Ignorance is not an excuse, everyone has had long enough now to look at what it is they are actually promoting. If it doesn't mean that to them then they need to realise that it does to many, so adapt it so it is not so divisive and politically charged. It really isn't hard.
They are making an anti-racism message not an anti capitalism and Marxist one, so why conflate the two when it is completely and utterly needless and not part of the message?
I have never heard a single dissenting voice against Kick It Out. Have you?
As I and others have said, I disagree with the booing because people will fall over themselves to pretend it's for sinister reasons. That's what they do in 2020, its a National sport. I would prefer them to chant ''Kick It Out'' to show they are on board with the message but not with the horrific politics. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 8:57]
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Ok, but they did. Well yes a lot of people including jews are renowned for sticking their head in the sand regarding the actions of the Israeli government. There is nothing anti semitic about highlighting Israels horrible treatment of the Palestinians.
No of course it wouldn't be ok. Fascism and NAZIism lead to the deaths of innocent people. Openly backing a cause such as that is unacceptable. What a pathetic comparison.
Yes the players are making an anti racism message - so you tell me why people are conflating it with Marxism or Anti Semitism or anything else they cook up to justify their actions.
No outward direct opposition, because that would be outing themselves. They can't tag opposing it with some tenuous link to an apparent political agenda so they just ignore the mantra instead. Because we both no racism still exists in the game so evidently not everyone agrees with that campaign. | |
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| Colchester fans now on 09:16 - Dec 8 with 370 views | Glossolalia |
| Colchester fans now on 09:09 - Dec 8 by Chief |
Ok, but they did. Well yes a lot of people including jews are renowned for sticking their head in the sand regarding the actions of the Israeli government. There is nothing anti semitic about highlighting Israels horrible treatment of the Palestinians.
No of course it wouldn't be ok. Fascism and NAZIism lead to the deaths of innocent people. Openly backing a cause such as that is unacceptable. What a pathetic comparison.
Yes the players are making an anti racism message - so you tell me why people are conflating it with Marxism or Anti Semitism or anything else they cook up to justify their actions.
No outward direct opposition, because that would be outing themselves. They can't tag opposing it with some tenuous link to an apparent political agenda so they just ignore the mantra instead. Because we both no racism still exists in the game so evidently not everyone agrees with that campaign. |
The link isn't tenuous. It's direct.
'And the players take the knee for Black Lives Matter'. BLM = Marxism. No conflation. | | | |
| Colchester fans now on 09:17 - Dec 8 with 369 views | Chief |
| Colchester fans now on 09:05 - Dec 8 by Glossolalia |
Can you truly not make the distinction between a politicised anti-racism message and an apolitical one?
Is it nonsense that BLM are political? And by extension, is it nonsense that using their method of protest is political too? Be serious man.
There is no doubt the BLM are left-wing extremists. They want to bring your child up in a communal environment; they want the end of the nuclear family. This has all been said months ago on this forum. Another poster, upon reading the manifesto on their official site, was too blinkered to realise it blatantly espoused extremist Marxism. It was truly laughable.
On a personal and political level, hardly anyone here would be on board with their ideas. Almost certainly yourself included, Chief.
That's embarrassing - the fact that so many thinking-intolerant indirectly support an ideology so far removed from their own, whilst at the same time attacking others as racist for noticing what is clear to see with a bit of thought.
You've flung some very serious accusations around and it comes from a clear lack of understanding. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 9:11]
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- Do we really need to. The players are doing a gesture against race. Just see it as that instead of trying to look dor some conspiracy.
- Are the players invested in these supposed BLM political aims? Highly unlikely. As above.
- Do you honestly think any of our players buy into that?
- Yes i probably wouldn't be, but that hasn't come into my thinking. There is no political party in the UK named BLM so i think all this political talk is a complete red herring.
- i dont necessarily support their ideology. I support our players rights to go to a knee for a few seconds before kick off.
- Should all other non footballing apolitical gestures be left out of football too then?
- its not really. Im exposing some unpalatable truths. | |
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| Colchester fans now on 09:19 - Dec 8 with 364 views | Chief |
| Colchester fans now on 09:16 - Dec 8 by Glossolalia |
The link isn't tenuous. It's direct.
'And the players take the knee for Black Lives Matter'. BLM = Marxism. No conflation. |
Its a complete conflation.
Players taking the knee = protest against racism.
Take your tin foil hat off and support the players. | |
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| Colchester fans now on 09:21 - Dec 8 with 361 views | Glossolalia |
| Colchester fans now on 09:17 - Dec 8 by Chief |
- Do we really need to. The players are doing a gesture against race. Just see it as that instead of trying to look dor some conspiracy.
- Are the players invested in these supposed BLM political aims? Highly unlikely. As above.
- Do you honestly think any of our players buy into that?
- Yes i probably wouldn't be, but that hasn't come into my thinking. There is no political party in the UK named BLM so i think all this political talk is a complete red herring.
- i dont necessarily support their ideology. I support our players rights to go to a knee for a few seconds before kick off.
- Should all other non footballing apolitical gestures be left out of football too then?
- its not really. Im exposing some unpalatable truths. |
'Doesn't come into my thinking'. Speaks volumes.
What a dangerous communist you are. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 9:22]
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| Colchester fans now on 09:22 - Dec 8 with 358 views | Chief |
| Colchester fans now on 09:21 - Dec 8 by Glossolalia |
'Doesn't come into my thinking'. Speaks volumes.
What a dangerous communist you are. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 9:22]
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Yea it does. Shows I'm prepared to back the players and not some mythical political rampage. | |
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| Colchester fans now on 09:25 - Dec 8 with 357 views | Chief |
| Colchester fans now on 09:21 - Dec 8 by Glossolalia |
'Doesn't come into my thinking'. Speaks volumes.
What a dangerous communist you are. [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 9:22]
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Haha is that meant to be an insult!?
Id much rather be a 'dangerous communist' (not sure how dangerous they can be in Britain in 2020!) than someone who boos our own players before kick off. | |
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| Colchester fans now on 09:25 - Dec 8 with 355 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Colchester fans now on 09:09 - Dec 8 by Chief |
Ok, but they did. Well yes a lot of people including jews are renowned for sticking their head in the sand regarding the actions of the Israeli government. There is nothing anti semitic about highlighting Israels horrible treatment of the Palestinians.
No of course it wouldn't be ok. Fascism and NAZIism lead to the deaths of innocent people. Openly backing a cause such as that is unacceptable. What a pathetic comparison.
Yes the players are making an anti racism message - so you tell me why people are conflating it with Marxism or Anti Semitism or anything else they cook up to justify their actions.
No outward direct opposition, because that would be outing themselves. They can't tag opposing it with some tenuous link to an apparent political agenda so they just ignore the mantra instead. Because we both no racism still exists in the game so evidently not everyone agrees with that campaign. |
I don't understand what you mean by conflating BLM with Marxism? They are openly Marxists. That isn't a tenuous link, their list of aims was to destroy capitalism and their founders have said they are trained Marxists. You do realise communism has killed millions and millions right?
So surely you agree now you realise the extremist political movement behind BLM then we should instead focus on the anti-racism message and move away from it? Whether you believe its political to you doesn't matter, it is to an awful lot of people - quite justifiably so.
So surely unity and the message is what is important right? [Post edited 8 Dec 2020 9:26]
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