| The lost black generation of football coaches 21:40 - May 20 with 1763 views | KeithHaynes |
Brilliant discussions on Talk Sport.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  |
| |  |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:54 - May 21 with 481 views | Gwyn737 |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:44 - May 21 by Dr_Winston |
The education of coaches in the UK doesn't seem to be up to much. Mostly the system seems to produce 4-4-2 dinosaurs obsessed with physicality, or Monny's fabled "clipboard coaches" who think that maintaining shape is the key to all success. Monk, Clement and Cooper fall into the latter category.
Personally I believe the whole idea of coaching licences is fundamentally flawed. You can't teach people how to manage. Either they can or they can't. |
The coaching is important but I agree that the management is intrinsic.
I’ve had my eyes opened by my boys team over the past few years that it focused not only only on ability but on performance and not playing scared.
I may have been lucky but my 11 year old plays with both commitment and joy. That’s down to his coach. |  | | |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:58 - May 21 with 476 views | Flashberryjack |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:47 - May 21 by Gwyn737 |
I think in some ways we’re stuck in tradition, hence my comment about reliance on old school coaching when the going gets tough.
The UEFA licences should be the same wherever you are in Europe so ‘should’ be transferable. That doesn’t appear so with us.
In the UK It seems to be cultural thing. I’d like managers to have a proper hit with time to change the culture of a club.
That’s probably pie in the sky so not a proper solution! |
I agree with an earlier poster, if you're good enough you'll get your chance, skin colour should never be a consideration IMO, although, their numbers seem to be doing very well at TV punditry, would you say that's purely on ability ?
If we had a good manager I wouldn't a care about the colour of his skin, it's results and style of play that counts. |  |
| |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 22:05 - May 21 with 473 views | Dr_Winston |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:54 - May 21 by Gwyn737 |
The coaching is important but I agree that the management is intrinsic.
I’ve had my eyes opened by my boys team over the past few years that it focused not only only on ability but on performance and not playing scared.
I may have been lucky but my 11 year old plays with both commitment and joy. That’s down to his coach. |
At most age levels it should be about having fun. I do have a problem with players being affiliated with clubs from as young as six years old. Until they're 14/15 they're still learning, and any youth coach who understands that is a quality individual. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
| |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 22:08 - May 21 with 473 views | Gwyn737 |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:58 - May 21 by Flashberryjack |
I agree with an earlier poster, if you're good enough you'll get your chance, skin colour should never be a consideration IMO, although, their numbers seem to be doing very well at TV punditry, would you say that's purely on ability ?
If we had a good manager I wouldn't a care about the colour of his skin, it's results and style of play that counts. |
As I said before just looking at skin colour is overly simplifying things.
When it comes to punditry it does seem like there’s over representation but I can only speak personally- I like Ian Wright and Micah Richards but not so keen on Jermaine Jenas.
The fuss over Alex Scott is ridiculous. She’s got 140 caps and a degree in broadcasting so has more right to do the job than most. | | | |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 23:02 - May 21 with 449 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 16:40 - May 21 by ReslovenSwan1 |
The female angle is meaningless. It simple has no relevance. UK has 5% Black people. 95% non black people. Both are roughly 50% males. 99%+ of football coaches mangager in the professional game are male. Its a red herring.
Based on national proportions demography one would expect at least 5% of people going to coaching badges to be black. Given that 25% of all footballers are black one would expect this proportion to be bigger if not the 25% of players. There is also a percentage relating to the overall proportion of coaches who were ex players. From that it is a simple formula to determine the average expected proportion of black coaches. Ths will be somewhere between 5% and 25%.
The 6.5% you quote is within the range but probably on the low side. (if a high proportion of Black players venture into coaching). |
It’s absolutely relevant, it means that groups of people do not go into any profession in their exact population split, it’s crazy to think they would.
So using population split and comparing it to profession split in order to draw a conclusion is majorly flawed, as your base expectation level is not accurate. You are expecting the profession to churn out the same as the population split and using any deviance from that as a reason for concern... when in fact deviance is completely normal and expected.
25% of footballers being black is also not the formula to work out how many should be coaches, because again similar to population split, you are expecting the same exact results from racial split. There are many reasons different races choose different occupations.
For example, in the US 13% are black, most of the population has hair... yet 28% of hairdressers and barbers are black. Are hair salons racist against white people? Doubtful.
If you want to take that further and look at health professionals, 35% of nursing assistants, 37% of home health workers and 37% of medical technicians are black. Is the health industry racist against white people? Again, doubtful.
This is back to the equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome debate. Equality of opportunity is desirable, equality of outcome is not (which is what you seem to want to see).
I would say it would be a greater cause of alarm if all professions displayed their exact population demographic split, because it’s almost certain that the best people for the job are not being employed and indeed they are employing to fill quotas as opposed to talent.
In terms of equality of opportunity, which is the real issue - that can be measured by the amount of black players earning their licences and the amount of black managers in the game (population or amount of players is irrelevant).
As I said, 6.5% black managers currently in the game, I would say that sounds very plausible that it would also be around the mark in terms of the racial split of those that are earning their badges. So I’m not seeing the issue. [Post edited 21 May 2021 23:25]
|  |
| |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 23:15 - May 21 with 436 views | Gwyn737 |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 22:05 - May 21 by Dr_Winston |
At most age levels it should be about having fun. I do have a problem with players being affiliated with clubs from as young as six years old. Until they're 14/15 they're still learning, and any youth coach who understands that is a quality individual. |
It’s very rare unfortunately.
Kids think they’ve made it at 8 and are kicked out of clubs with no notice. | | | |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 23:28 - May 21 with 430 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 23:02 - May 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
It’s absolutely relevant, it means that groups of people do not go into any profession in their exact population split, it’s crazy to think they would.
So using population split and comparing it to profession split in order to draw a conclusion is majorly flawed, as your base expectation level is not accurate. You are expecting the profession to churn out the same as the population split and using any deviance from that as a reason for concern... when in fact deviance is completely normal and expected.
25% of footballers being black is also not the formula to work out how many should be coaches, because again similar to population split, you are expecting the same exact results from racial split. There are many reasons different races choose different occupations.
For example, in the US 13% are black, most of the population has hair... yet 28% of hairdressers and barbers are black. Are hair salons racist against white people? Doubtful.
If you want to take that further and look at health professionals, 35% of nursing assistants, 37% of home health workers and 37% of medical technicians are black. Is the health industry racist against white people? Again, doubtful.
This is back to the equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome debate. Equality of opportunity is desirable, equality of outcome is not (which is what you seem to want to see).
I would say it would be a greater cause of alarm if all professions displayed their exact population demographic split, because it’s almost certain that the best people for the job are not being employed and indeed they are employing to fill quotas as opposed to talent.
In terms of equality of opportunity, which is the real issue - that can be measured by the amount of black players earning their licences and the amount of black managers in the game (population or amount of players is irrelevant).
As I said, 6.5% black managers currently in the game, I would say that sounds very plausible that it would also be around the mark in terms of the racial split of those that are earning their badges. So I’m not seeing the issue. [Post edited 21 May 2021 23:25]
|
Bringing women into the argument is irrelevent. For both white and non white very few women become professional football coaches or managers.
It is obvious that people do not go into occupations in ther "exact " population split. I do not understand your repetetive use of the word "exact".
It seems to me, black footballers might be more likely to want to go into coaching and possible management not less all things beng equal. I gave a range of 5% to 25%. There is nothing exact about that. Your figure of 6.5% reinforces this but is at the lower end of expectation.
In coaching roles people who are not ex footballers get involved and compete with ex footballers for roles and on average only 5% of the non ex footballers would be black. People like Brendan Rodgers bring the 25% figure right down. Ex footballers do have an intrinsic advantage however from familiarity and friendship with the decsion makers. On that basis the 6.5% is little on the low side. |  |
| |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 00:39 - May 22 with 422 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 23:28 - May 21 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Bringing women into the argument is irrelevent. For both white and non white very few women become professional football coaches or managers.
It is obvious that people do not go into occupations in ther "exact " population split. I do not understand your repetetive use of the word "exact".
It seems to me, black footballers might be more likely to want to go into coaching and possible management not less all things beng equal. I gave a range of 5% to 25%. There is nothing exact about that. Your figure of 6.5% reinforces this but is at the lower end of expectation.
In coaching roles people who are not ex footballers get involved and compete with ex footballers for roles and on average only 5% of the non ex footballers would be black. People like Brendan Rodgers bring the 25% figure right down. Ex footballers do have an intrinsic advantage however from familiarity and friendship with the decsion makers. On that basis the 6.5% is little on the low side. |
Why is it irrelevant? It is showing that despite population splits, people choose different careers.
I am not talking about women in football, I’m talking about women in anything. Women make up 67% of the teachers in the U.K. that doesn’t mean schools are sexist against men. It’s a ridiculous notion.
You are looking at population split and expecting that to show in the sector you are looking at, but it isn’t expected to be representative of the population split as other occupations show, so your starting reference point is flawed.
If you believe up to 25% of black players wish to go into coaching then you will see 1 in 4 that qualify for their badges be black, yet I would be astonished if this was the case. If someone asked me what % of those that take and qualify for their coaching badges are black, I would have said between 5%-8%.
The figure being 6.5% in terms of managers in the system seems absolutely normal and expected to me.
But until we know the % of black people that are qualifying for their badges each year, we don’t really have anything to discuss. As I have shown, player participation and population split is not anywhere close to a reliable reference point. [Post edited 22 May 2021 1:27]
| |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 00:48 - May 22 with 420 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Here we go, I found a reference on players each year qualifying for their UEFA pro licence.
It has lists of many countries including the likes of Russia and Italy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik
I’ll go through England and work out in the last 20 years, how many A licences have been qualified for by race. May take a while so bear with me...
Stand by. | |
| |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 01:25 - May 22 with 416 views | Dr_Parnassus |
2002
13 qualified, 1 was black (Chris Hughton) - 7.67%
2003
17 qualified, 1 was black (Hope Powell, female) - 5.88%
2004
26 qualified, 0 were black - 0%
2005
18 qualified , 0 were black - 0%
2006
18 qualified, 2 were black - 11.11%
2007
20 qualified, 3 were black - 15%
2008
20 qualified, 1 was black - 5%
2009
5 qualified, 0 were black - 0%
(For some reason it skips to 2014)
2014
3 qualified, 1 was black - 33.33%
(Again skips a year to 2016)
2016
3 qualified, 0 were black - 0%
2017
4 qualified, 0 were black - 0%
(Skips to 2019)
2019
3 qualified, 0 were black - 0%
.............
So the above lists 150 people qualifying for their A licence in England. 9 were black.
This gives us a total of 6%.
If you go through those 9 black coaches, none stand out as anyone who has been overlooked by clubs. They are either very successful, have been given a chance and performed poorly or have no distinguished footballing background.
It’s always important to do research before making sweeping accusations/insinuations like talksport and other media outlets do. They are incredibly lazy and would rather push and discuss a divisive narrative for months and even years on end as opposed to actually looking at the data, it’s taken me 30 minutes.
It purports a false notion of racism and forms the bedrock for other finger pointing narratives that only end up causing friction and unease completely needlessly.
So going from the data we have, there is pretty much an exact correlation % wise between black coaches achieving their licence and black coaches in the Professional game. [Post edited 22 May 2021 1:29]
| |
| |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 14:23 - May 22 with 338 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 01:25 - May 22 by Dr_Parnassus |
2002
13 qualified, 1 was black (Chris Hughton) - 7.67%
2003
17 qualified, 1 was black (Hope Powell, female) - 5.88%
2004
26 qualified, 0 were black - 0%
2005
18 qualified , 0 were black - 0%
2006
18 qualified, 2 were black - 11.11%
2007
20 qualified, 3 were black - 15%
2008
20 qualified, 1 was black - 5%
2009
5 qualified, 0 were black - 0%
(For some reason it skips to 2014)
2014
3 qualified, 1 was black - 33.33%
(Again skips a year to 2016)
2016
3 qualified, 0 were black - 0%
2017
4 qualified, 0 were black - 0%
(Skips to 2019)
2019
3 qualified, 0 were black - 0%
.............
So the above lists 150 people qualifying for their A licence in England. 9 were black.
This gives us a total of 6%.
If you go through those 9 black coaches, none stand out as anyone who has been overlooked by clubs. They are either very successful, have been given a chance and performed poorly or have no distinguished footballing background.
It’s always important to do research before making sweeping accusations/insinuations like talksport and other media outlets do. They are incredibly lazy and would rather push and discuss a divisive narrative for months and even years on end as opposed to actually looking at the data, it’s taken me 30 minutes.
It purports a false notion of racism and forms the bedrock for other finger pointing narratives that only end up causing friction and unease completely needlessly.
So going from the data we have, there is pretty much an exact correlation % wise between black coaches achieving their licence and black coaches in the Professional game. [Post edited 22 May 2021 1:29]
|
Good work fair play. The proportion is close to or above the national breakdown. It possibly suggests that balck footballers do not go into coaching and prefer to do something else.
Talksport has become a home for these issues that is probably not a bad thing. | |
| |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 20:56 - May 22 with 290 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 14:23 - May 22 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Good work fair play. The proportion is close to or above the national breakdown. It possibly suggests that balck footballers do not go into coaching and prefer to do something else.
Talksport has become a home for these issues that is probably not a bad thing. |
Cheers for that.
Don’t you think it’s terrible though that not a single person in these TV and radio stations has bothered to even look at the facts? This discussion has been going on for years regarding the lack of black managers with the focus being on “the game having some way to go”. Yet it’s clear nobody has even bothered to check if that view is even accurate... or they have but decided it would ruin the angle?
This is the danger of modern society, anything they can’t immediately explain away or can’t be bothered to look into, immediately gets put under the bracket of “must be racism”. Exactly the same sort of thing as the police brutality in the States, as soon as you look at the actual calculation (not vs population but crime rate) then the notion falls apart instantly.
Shouldn’t be up to a bloke on a football forum to look into national ongoing media discussion to dismantle it in a lunch-break. It’s either very embarrassing by these organisations with researchers available to them.. or very sinister, ignoring reality to protect a talking point regardless of damage it does to society - and I genuinely don’t know which one it is. | |
| |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:25 - May 22 with 282 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 20:56 - May 22 by Dr_Parnassus |
Cheers for that.
Don’t you think it’s terrible though that not a single person in these TV and radio stations has bothered to even look at the facts? This discussion has been going on for years regarding the lack of black managers with the focus being on “the game having some way to go”. Yet it’s clear nobody has even bothered to check if that view is even accurate... or they have but decided it would ruin the angle?
This is the danger of modern society, anything they can’t immediately explain away or can’t be bothered to look into, immediately gets put under the bracket of “must be racism”. Exactly the same sort of thing as the police brutality in the States, as soon as you look at the actual calculation (not vs population but crime rate) then the notion falls apart instantly.
Shouldn’t be up to a bloke on a football forum to look into national ongoing media discussion to dismantle it in a lunch-break. It’s either very embarrassing by these organisations with researchers available to them.. or very sinister, ignoring reality to protect a talking point regardless of damage it does to society - and I genuinely don’t know which one it is. |
Bodies generally start with an agenda and work from there. If it does not fit they will find other reasons that do fit their agenda. We all of course have our own agendas which makes things diificult.
I used to go to see Comedy nights at the Hackney Empire back in the 1980. If Aurthur Smith was the compere it was a white crowd. One night they had Caribean comperes. I went anyway. I was one of only 3 whites in the 500 seat hall and the other two were selling icecream. I could then see thing from their persepctive. I was a little uncomfortable although for no reeason.
Footlball pundits are far better if they are not footballers. Quest TV demonstrates this. Highly informed non footballers on one side and dim footballers telling us what we already know. on the other. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.