| The lost black generation of football coaches 21:40 - May 20 with 1764 views | KeithHaynes |
Brilliant discussions on Talk Sport.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 22:21 - May 20 with 1232 views | hobo |
If you're good enough you'll get the job. That's it |  | | |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 02:50 - May 21 with 1186 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 22:21 - May 20 by hobo |
If you're good enough you'll get the job. That's it |
Correct.
Interesting subject, simply for the reason of hearing how far people go to dance around the facts to perpetuate yet more phantom racism. But it’s definitely a good thread for a discussion point and an excellent topic from the OP.
Of the thousands of players in this country, how many go on to do their badges? How many of those are black? Of those who went on to do their badges with a fair football pedigree to rely on, how many have gone on to find a job in management? Is it any higher % for each race? I have no idea personally.
Without those figures though, it’s very lazy to look at the situation and yet again attribute something to racism with zero evidence. It’s very tiresome, something talksport do often.
Of course what the suggestion is doing, is indirectly accusing the owners of clubs as racists, owners that ALL employ black players for the sole reason of them being good enough to improve their business. So it’s very difficult to make an accusation that employers (who employ black people regularly)... isn’t employing someone because they are black.
What people don’t tend to realise, is that many owners of clubs in the PL aren’t white, and is often the focus of such discussions.
It’s ludicrous to suggest that owners of clubs should be contacting black managers simply because they are black. Absolutely nobody should be hired or fired based on their skin colour, to hire someone because they are black means you are discriminating against someone else because they are a different race than your desired candidate for PR purposes. If it was the other way around it would be horrific.
Let’s go further than the lazy but currently fashionable “black” discussion.... If people were truly concerned about racism within clubs, then why isn’t anyone talking about a lack of Asian managers? I can name loads of black managers in football, don’t think I can name any Asian ones. Has there ever been an Asian manager in the Premier League? Are these owners, many of which Asian themselves, racist against Asian managers?
We live in a majority white country, most employment in this country will be Caucasians, just purely on a statistical inevitability. If we went to India, most employment would be Asian, football managers included.
Is anyone accusing the Indian football clubs of racism for a lack of white people managing their clubs? Of course not.
But why not?...would be my question. [Post edited 21 May 2021 3:01]
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 11:21 - May 21 with 1107 views | onehunglow |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 02:50 - May 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
Correct.
Interesting subject, simply for the reason of hearing how far people go to dance around the facts to perpetuate yet more phantom racism. But it’s definitely a good thread for a discussion point and an excellent topic from the OP.
Of the thousands of players in this country, how many go on to do their badges? How many of those are black? Of those who went on to do their badges with a fair football pedigree to rely on, how many have gone on to find a job in management? Is it any higher % for each race? I have no idea personally.
Without those figures though, it’s very lazy to look at the situation and yet again attribute something to racism with zero evidence. It’s very tiresome, something talksport do often.
Of course what the suggestion is doing, is indirectly accusing the owners of clubs as racists, owners that ALL employ black players for the sole reason of them being good enough to improve their business. So it’s very difficult to make an accusation that employers (who employ black people regularly)... isn’t employing someone because they are black.
What people don’t tend to realise, is that many owners of clubs in the PL aren’t white, and is often the focus of such discussions.
It’s ludicrous to suggest that owners of clubs should be contacting black managers simply because they are black. Absolutely nobody should be hired or fired based on their skin colour, to hire someone because they are black means you are discriminating against someone else because they are a different race than your desired candidate for PR purposes. If it was the other way around it would be horrific.
Let’s go further than the lazy but currently fashionable “black” discussion.... If people were truly concerned about racism within clubs, then why isn’t anyone talking about a lack of Asian managers? I can name loads of black managers in football, don’t think I can name any Asian ones. Has there ever been an Asian manager in the Premier League? Are these owners, many of which Asian themselves, racist against Asian managers?
We live in a majority white country, most employment in this country will be Caucasians, just purely on a statistical inevitability. If we went to India, most employment would be Asian, football managers included.
Is anyone accusing the Indian football clubs of racism for a lack of white people managing their clubs? Of course not.
But why not?...would be my question. [Post edited 21 May 2021 3:01]
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That is simply a superb critique and how thing really are.
Racial issue for me have become topics over which I feel most uncomfortable and I'm a man very comfortable in his own skin. |  |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 12:29 - May 21 with 1078 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 02:50 - May 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
Correct.
Interesting subject, simply for the reason of hearing how far people go to dance around the facts to perpetuate yet more phantom racism. But it’s definitely a good thread for a discussion point and an excellent topic from the OP.
Of the thousands of players in this country, how many go on to do their badges? How many of those are black? Of those who went on to do their badges with a fair football pedigree to rely on, how many have gone on to find a job in management? Is it any higher % for each race? I have no idea personally.
Without those figures though, it’s very lazy to look at the situation and yet again attribute something to racism with zero evidence. It’s very tiresome, something talksport do often.
Of course what the suggestion is doing, is indirectly accusing the owners of clubs as racists, owners that ALL employ black players for the sole reason of them being good enough to improve their business. So it’s very difficult to make an accusation that employers (who employ black people regularly)... isn’t employing someone because they are black.
What people don’t tend to realise, is that many owners of clubs in the PL aren’t white, and is often the focus of such discussions.
It’s ludicrous to suggest that owners of clubs should be contacting black managers simply because they are black. Absolutely nobody should be hired or fired based on their skin colour, to hire someone because they are black means you are discriminating against someone else because they are a different race than your desired candidate for PR purposes. If it was the other way around it would be horrific.
Let’s go further than the lazy but currently fashionable “black” discussion.... If people were truly concerned about racism within clubs, then why isn’t anyone talking about a lack of Asian managers? I can name loads of black managers in football, don’t think I can name any Asian ones. Has there ever been an Asian manager in the Premier League? Are these owners, many of which Asian themselves, racist against Asian managers?
We live in a majority white country, most employment in this country will be Caucasians, just purely on a statistical inevitability. If we went to India, most employment would be Asian, football managers included.
Is anyone accusing the Indian football clubs of racism for a lack of white people managing their clubs? Of course not.
But why not?...would be my question. [Post edited 21 May 2021 3:01]
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A high perecentage of players in the professional game are black. Perhaps 15-25% at a guess. Asians are rare.
Data perhaps suggest that if say 15% of players are black based on a meritocracsy then on the same basis based on a meritocrasy 15% of coaches should be black too. I do not have the data but lets assume that only 1% of coaches are black then it is a reasonable question to invesigate this.
Why is the number notionally so low. Is it because Black people prefer not to do these jobs or is there a more subtle and sinister reason? Research into this is valid. |  |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 12:41 - May 21 with 1077 views | theloneranger |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 02:50 - May 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
Correct.
Interesting subject, simply for the reason of hearing how far people go to dance around the facts to perpetuate yet more phantom racism. But it’s definitely a good thread for a discussion point and an excellent topic from the OP.
Of the thousands of players in this country, how many go on to do their badges? How many of those are black? Of those who went on to do their badges with a fair football pedigree to rely on, how many have gone on to find a job in management? Is it any higher % for each race? I have no idea personally.
Without those figures though, it’s very lazy to look at the situation and yet again attribute something to racism with zero evidence. It’s very tiresome, something talksport do often.
Of course what the suggestion is doing, is indirectly accusing the owners of clubs as racists, owners that ALL employ black players for the sole reason of them being good enough to improve their business. So it’s very difficult to make an accusation that employers (who employ black people regularly)... isn’t employing someone because they are black.
What people don’t tend to realise, is that many owners of clubs in the PL aren’t white, and is often the focus of such discussions.
It’s ludicrous to suggest that owners of clubs should be contacting black managers simply because they are black. Absolutely nobody should be hired or fired based on their skin colour, to hire someone because they are black means you are discriminating against someone else because they are a different race than your desired candidate for PR purposes. If it was the other way around it would be horrific.
Let’s go further than the lazy but currently fashionable “black” discussion.... If people were truly concerned about racism within clubs, then why isn’t anyone talking about a lack of Asian managers? I can name loads of black managers in football, don’t think I can name any Asian ones. Has there ever been an Asian manager in the Premier League? Are these owners, many of which Asian themselves, racist against Asian managers?
We live in a majority white country, most employment in this country will be Caucasians, just purely on a statistical inevitability. If we went to India, most employment would be Asian, football managers included.
Is anyone accusing the Indian football clubs of racism for a lack of white people managing their clubs? Of course not.
But why not?...would be my question. [Post edited 21 May 2021 3:01]
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"If we went to India, most employment would be Asian, "football managers included."
There are only 3 Indian managers in the ISL. The other 8 are European. |  |
| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 13:13 - May 21 with 1054 views | onehunglow |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 12:29 - May 21 by ReslovenSwan1 |
A high perecentage of players in the professional game are black. Perhaps 15-25% at a guess. Asians are rare.
Data perhaps suggest that if say 15% of players are black based on a meritocracsy then on the same basis based on a meritocrasy 15% of coaches should be black too. I do not have the data but lets assume that only 1% of coaches are black then it is a reasonable question to invesigate this.
Why is the number notionally so low. Is it because Black people prefer not to do these jobs or is there a more subtle and sinister reason? Research into this is valid. |
and virtually no Chinese,the most populous nation on earth by . | |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 13:18 - May 21 with 1054 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 12:29 - May 21 by ReslovenSwan1 |
A high perecentage of players in the professional game are black. Perhaps 15-25% at a guess. Asians are rare.
Data perhaps suggest that if say 15% of players are black based on a meritocracsy then on the same basis based on a meritocrasy 15% of coaches should be black too. I do not have the data but lets assume that only 1% of coaches are black then it is a reasonable question to invesigate this.
Why is the number notionally so low. Is it because Black people prefer not to do these jobs or is there a more subtle and sinister reason? Research into this is valid. |
It has nothing to do with the amount of players in the game, it is to do with how many take their coaching badges.
That is the pool you look at, because that tells us how many qualified coaches there are. If there is 25% of qualified coaches being black and majorly disproportionate amount not being employed then I would agree it requires a look as to why. But I am not sure that is the case.
Do we think 25% of people who are qualifying with their coaching badges each year are black? I highly doubt it.
People make different choices in life which is often shaped by culture. There is a rich history of football management in Britain for example which has a black male population of about 2%.
So while there may be 20% black players in the league, some may not hold the position in as high regard due to not growing up with football management being glorified like it is in our country, some may not speak the language and manage teams, but elsewhere - there are a multitude of reasons why people of different races and cultures choose different pathways in life. [Post edited 21 May 2021 13:31]
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 13:19 - May 21 with 1053 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 12:41 - May 21 by theloneranger |
"If we went to India, most employment would be Asian, "football managers included."
There are only 3 Indian managers in the ISL. The other 8 are European. |
Interesting actually. Although I was speaking broadly, not specifically looking at their top league. Most football managers in India will be Asian, without doubt. | |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 13:27 - May 21 with 1041 views | KeithHaynes |
Although the discussion was surrounding black footballers and their attempts to gain management positions and coaching positions after qualifying via licences to do so. | |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 13:40 - May 21 with 1021 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 13:18 - May 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
It has nothing to do with the amount of players in the game, it is to do with how many take their coaching badges.
That is the pool you look at, because that tells us how many qualified coaches there are. If there is 25% of qualified coaches being black and majorly disproportionate amount not being employed then I would agree it requires a look as to why. But I am not sure that is the case.
Do we think 25% of people who are qualifying with their coaching badges each year are black? I highly doubt it.
People make different choices in life which is often shaped by culture. There is a rich history of football management in Britain for example which has a black male population of about 2%.
So while there may be 20% black players in the league, some may not hold the position in as high regard due to not growing up with football management being glorified like it is in our country, some may not speak the language and manage teams, but elsewhere - there are a multitude of reasons why people of different races and cultures choose different pathways in life. [Post edited 21 May 2021 13:31]
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I have not idea the perecentatge of black people applying to be coaches.
Playing football has limits. Someone who is very keen cannot necessarilty become a footballer. Black people are disprortionally suited to the game from heritage and physical aspects of speed and physique. Therefore 25% make the grade which is ruthlessly
meritocratic unless you are sons of an agent.
Any educated person can be a coach with the right educational and organisational background. The same limits are wider and you do not necessarily have to be an ex footballer. For the 25% retired black footballers the competition is tougher. I think I read somewhere the population was around 5% Black. One would reasonably expect the number in coaching to be well above this 5% but not as high as 25% as there are more non
ex foootballer competition which is 95% non black.
This needs to be investigated to verify there is no natural bias to non black applicants. It is also important to verify this so that Black applicants do not decline going into coaching for fear that the process is not "rigged " against them and it is a genuine meritocrasy. [Post edited 21 May 2021 13:44]
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 13:50 - May 21 with 1010 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 13:40 - May 21 by ReslovenSwan1 |
I have not idea the perecentatge of black people applying to be coaches.
Playing football has limits. Someone who is very keen cannot necessarilty become a footballer. Black people are disprortionally suited to the game from heritage and physical aspects of speed and physique. Therefore 25% make the grade which is ruthlessly
meritocratic unless you are sons of an agent.
Any educated person can be a coach with the right educational and organisational background. The same limits are wider and you do not necessarily have to be an ex footballer. For the 25% retired black footballers the competition is tougher. I think I read somewhere the population was around 5% Black. One would reasonably expect the number in coaching to be well above this 5% but not as high as 25% as there are more non
ex foootballer competition which is 95% non black.
This needs to be investigated to verify there is no natural bias to non black applicants. It is also important to verify this so that Black applicants do not decline going into coaching for fear that the process is not "rigged " against them and it is a genuine meritocrasy. [Post edited 21 May 2021 13:44]
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The population is around 5% black, but of course half of which are women.
As I said, many black players in our game are not of British origin where football coaching may not be held in so high esteem in their own countries. Many may have no desire to go into coaching, in English football specifically the position is almost romanticised.
All clubs in Britain employ black players simply because they are deemed good enough and will improve the business. I don't understand why people think that is any different in other areas of their business.
Let's get a breakdown of those that qualify with their badges and then we can go from there. Not sure how to get that information though. | |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 14:21 - May 21 with 990 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 13:50 - May 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
The population is around 5% black, but of course half of which are women.
As I said, many black players in our game are not of British origin where football coaching may not be held in so high esteem in their own countries. Many may have no desire to go into coaching, in English football specifically the position is almost romanticised.
All clubs in Britain employ black players simply because they are deemed good enough and will improve the business. I don't understand why people think that is any different in other areas of their business.
Let's get a breakdown of those that qualify with their badges and then we can go from there. Not sure how to get that information though. |
If 5% of British people are Black then 5 % of coaches at least should be black male or female. This is a red herring. The bigger the data base the greater the statistical likelhood of this happenng. If it is less than 5% then there is something wrong in the system or in the culture of football. This is a reasonable assumptiom to make. You are right to say 25% is an unreasonable aspiration because you no not have to be a n ex footballer to be b a good coach. You would expect the figure to be greater than the notional 5% simply becuase of the experience gained on the field.
If after rsearch it is determined there is a subtle bias to towards whitte appointments then it is reesonable to take remedial measures with quotas to make it fair. No body wants quotas but nobody wants invisible maybe even involuntary discrimination either.
We know that Asian are less likey to get involved in football for cultural reasons. | |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 14:31 - May 21 with 989 views | Groo |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 14:21 - May 21 by ReslovenSwan1 |
If 5% of British people are Black then 5 % of coaches at least should be black male or female. This is a red herring. The bigger the data base the greater the statistical likelhood of this happenng. If it is less than 5% then there is something wrong in the system or in the culture of football. This is a reasonable assumptiom to make. You are right to say 25% is an unreasonable aspiration because you no not have to be a n ex footballer to be b a good coach. You would expect the figure to be greater than the notional 5% simply becuase of the experience gained on the field.
If after rsearch it is determined there is a subtle bias to towards whitte appointments then it is reesonable to take remedial measures with quotas to make it fair. No body wants quotas but nobody wants invisible maybe even involuntary discrimination either.
We know that Asian are less likey to get involved in football for cultural reasons. |
I believe 4% of the UK population is black and another 8% Asian (all Asian groups). |  |
| Groo does what Groo does best |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 14:51 - May 21 with 981 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 14:21 - May 21 by ReslovenSwan1 |
If 5% of British people are Black then 5 % of coaches at least should be black male or female. This is a red herring. The bigger the data base the greater the statistical likelhood of this happenng. If it is less than 5% then there is something wrong in the system or in the culture of football. This is a reasonable assumptiom to make. You are right to say 25% is an unreasonable aspiration because you no not have to be a n ex footballer to be b a good coach. You would expect the figure to be greater than the notional 5% simply becuase of the experience gained on the field.
If after rsearch it is determined there is a subtle bias to towards whitte appointments then it is reesonable to take remedial measures with quotas to make it fair. No body wants quotas but nobody wants invisible maybe even involuntary discrimination either.
We know that Asian are less likey to get involved in football for cultural reasons. |
But again that isn’t true is it.
51% of the population is female yet make up 69% of health professionals and 68% of teachers, are schools sexist? Unlikely.
You don’t get an even split in terms of population vs choice of careers. Again you would have to look at how many people are qualifying with their badges; then pose questions from that data.
I just had a quick look and a Google search says there is 6.5% black managers in the 92 league clubs. If that’s the sort of round about ratio that are acquiring their badges then there really is no issue.
As it goes, I would have guessed in that range. [Post edited 21 May 2021 14:58]
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 15:34 - May 21 with 960 views | onehunglow |
Glad I never said that | |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 15:45 - May 21 with 957 views | Whiterockin |
Would any ambitious club owner or manager really not give a coach, if he was the best for the job, the position just because he was black. Surly with all the money and prestige involved, the job would go to the person most suitable irrespective of race or colour. |  | | |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 16:40 - May 21 with 923 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 14:51 - May 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
But again that isn’t true is it.
51% of the population is female yet make up 69% of health professionals and 68% of teachers, are schools sexist? Unlikely.
You don’t get an even split in terms of population vs choice of careers. Again you would have to look at how many people are qualifying with their badges; then pose questions from that data.
I just had a quick look and a Google search says there is 6.5% black managers in the 92 league clubs. If that’s the sort of round about ratio that are acquiring their badges then there really is no issue.
As it goes, I would have guessed in that range. [Post edited 21 May 2021 14:58]
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The female angle is meaningless. It simple has no relevance. UK has 5% Black people. 95% non black people. Both are roughly 50% males. 99%+ of football coaches mangager in the professional game are male. Its a red herring.
Based on national proportions demography one would expect at least 5% of people going to coaching badges to be black. Given that 25% of all footballers are black one would expect this proportion to be bigger if not the 25% of players. There is also a percentage relating to the overall proportion of coaches who were ex players. From that it is a simple formula to determine the average expected proportion of black coaches. Ths will be somewhere between 5% and 25%.
The 6.5% you quote is within the range but probably on the low side. (if a high proportion of Black players venture into coaching). | |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 17:45 - May 21 with 915 views | Gwyn737 |
I reckon there’s more to take into account in this discussion.
As a nation we still seem the think coaches from abroad are better. We should look at the holding back of British talent before we can properly look at any perceived race issues. What else does someone like Sean Dyche have to do?
There’s also the fact that due to the nature of the game Chairmen are so risk averse. How many young manager (of whatever colour) opportunities have Alladyce/Pulis/McCarthy etc. taken. | | | |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 20:28 - May 21 with 887 views | builthjack |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 12:29 - May 21 by ReslovenSwan1 |
A high perecentage of players in the professional game are black. Perhaps 15-25% at a guess. Asians are rare.
Data perhaps suggest that if say 15% of players are black based on a meritocracsy then on the same basis based on a meritocrasy 15% of coaches should be black too. I do not have the data but lets assume that only 1% of coaches are black then it is a reasonable question to invesigate this.
Why is the number notionally so low. Is it because Black people prefer not to do these jobs or is there a more subtle and sinister reason? Research into this is valid. |
But only 3-4% of the population are black. |  |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 20:53 - May 21 with 874 views | Dr_Winston |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 17:45 - May 21 by Gwyn737 |
I reckon there’s more to take into account in this discussion.
As a nation we still seem the think coaches from abroad are better. We should look at the holding back of British talent before we can properly look at any perceived race issues. What else does someone like Sean Dyche have to do?
There’s also the fact that due to the nature of the game Chairmen are so risk averse. How many young manager (of whatever colour) opportunities have Alladyce/Pulis/McCarthy etc. taken. |
Mostly because foreign coaches are better. It's not always been the case, but for the last 25 years or so very few British managers have come through remotely capable of managing at the top (ESL club) level. Brendan Rodgers is about the only one who looks like he could cut it. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:11 - May 21 with 862 views | Flashberryjack |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 20:28 - May 21 by builthjack |
But only 3-4% of the population are black. |
You wouldn't think so when you watch TV adverts. |  |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:32 - May 21 with 843 views | Gwyn737 |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 20:53 - May 21 by Dr_Winston |
Mostly because foreign coaches are better. It's not always been the case, but for the last 25 years or so very few British managers have come through remotely capable of managing at the top (ESL club) level. Brendan Rodgers is about the only one who looks like he could cut it. |
I don’t disagree. Maybe we should look at why that is? | | | |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:39 - May 21 with 833 views | Flashberryjack |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:32 - May 21 by Gwyn737 |
I don’t disagree. Maybe we should look at why that is? |
How would you suggest we go about that Gwyn ? | |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:44 - May 21 with 827 views | Dr_Winston |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:32 - May 21 by Gwyn737 |
I don’t disagree. Maybe we should look at why that is? |
The education of coaches in the UK doesn't seem to be up to much. Mostly the system seems to produce 4-4-2 dinosaurs obsessed with physicality, or Monny's fabled "clipboard coaches" who think that maintaining shape is the key to all success. Monk, Clement and Cooper fall into the latter category.
Personally I believe the whole idea of coaching licences is fundamentally flawed. You can't teach people how to manage. Either they can or they can't. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:47 - May 21 with 845 views | Gwyn737 |
| The lost black generation of football coaches on 21:39 - May 21 by Flashberryjack |
How would you suggest we go about that Gwyn ? |
I think in some ways we’re stuck in tradition, hence my comment about reliance on old school coaching when the going gets tough.
The UEFA licences should be the same wherever you are in Europe so ‘should’ be transferable. That doesn’t appear so with us.
In the UK It seems to be cultural thing. I’d like managers to have a proper hit with time to change the culture of a club.
That’s probably pie in the sky so not a proper solution! | | | |
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