| US/Mexico Border on 20:51 - Aug 13 with 610 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| US/Mexico Border on 20:46 - Aug 13 by Gwyn737 |
Not questioning her beliefs or sincerity at all. She’s well within her right to state her case and act accordingly. As I keep saying, it’s not for me to question her motive.
I think the players will think they are being booed at. Hopefully we’ll win a few and won’t have to here to much of it.
England fans demonstrated this beautifully in the Euros - the more the team win the less Marxist they became. |
Don’t think it has anything to do with becoming “more Marxist”. It’s a perceived level of focus.
If you see a player on a night out when we are top of the league, people won’t say a word. If you see a player on a night out when we are bottom of the league, it irks people.
It has nothing to do with Marxism or race. That gesture will always be seen as political (regardless of non political reasoning), it’s not a sliding scale.
But some may tolerate the posturing if the team is doing well. But when it’s not doing well anything that seems to be taking the focus off the task in hand isn’t going to be met with a great response.
That’s just common sense. Especially when players are stating that is can certainly be a distraction within a camp, which Lloyd has clearly said it is.
Laughing and joking with the opposition is another one. When we are winning people tolerate it, if it happens and we are losing people rip into them. The perception is that their focus isn’t 100% on the task at hand, whether it is or not doesn’t matter. It’s perception. [Post edited 13 Aug 2021 20:55]
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| US/Mexico Border on 20:54 - Aug 13 with 602 views | Gwyn737 |
| US/Mexico Border on 20:51 - Aug 13 by Dr_Parnassus |
Don’t think it has anything to do with becoming “more Marxist”. It’s a perceived level of focus.
If you see a player on a night out when we are top of the league, people won’t say a word. If you see a player on a night out when we are bottom of the league, it irks people.
It has nothing to do with Marxism or race. That gesture will always be seen as political (regardless of non political reasoning), it’s not a sliding scale.
But some may tolerate the posturing if the team is doing well. But when it’s not doing well anything that seems to be taking the focus off the task in hand isn’t going to be met with a great response.
That’s just common sense. Especially when players are stating that is can certainly be a distraction within a camp, which Lloyd has clearly said it is.
Laughing and joking with the opposition is another one. When we are winning people tolerate it, if it happens and we are losing people rip into them. The perception is that their focus isn’t 100% on the task at hand, whether it is or not doesn’t matter. It’s perception. [Post edited 13 Aug 2021 20:55]
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Do you think we’re past that now?
There are enough players making the choice not to kneel to take the pressure of others who want to.
I’ll say again, I think it’s a waste of time but so is booing. |  | | |
| US/Mexico Border on 21:04 - Aug 13 with 600 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| US/Mexico Border on 20:54 - Aug 13 by Gwyn737 |
Do you think we’re past that now?
There are enough players making the choice not to kneel to take the pressure of others who want to.
I’ll say again, I think it’s a waste of time but so is booing. |
Do I think we are past what?
It’s all a complete waste of time Gwyn, a complete charade. From the kneeling to the booing. That’s why many people don’t like it, especially when losing.
But fans don’t get a platform, it’s their only form of showing they don’t like something. Sadly it clumsily gets interpreted however someone likes, it’s usually to suit their agenda and it all becomes one big cycle.
But let’s be honest here. If the players wanted to make an anti racism stance and not connect it to BLM, they wouldn’t do the knee. Whether you think people should make the connection is another argument all together, the fact is people are making the connection and the reasons why are pretty obvious.
There is some level of creating conflict to make the stance feel more needed. And I think many like the romance and image of being an activist. But you can only be an activist if there is an opposition.
I think, psychologically speaking, making everyone agree with a gesture takes away the importance of it. The conflict is what makes it feel like they are fighting for something. So taking away the political links will also take away the opposition to it… and I’m not convinced that’s what they want.
Does that make sense?
Nobody opposed the Kick it Out campaign we had for years with the players bringing out the kick it out flag. That’s because there was nothing to disagree with, no blurred political lines. Yet due to it having no opposition, I don’t think people found it worthwhile. Funny things, human beings. [Post edited 13 Aug 2021 21:07]
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| US/Mexico Border on 21:10 - Aug 13 with 592 views | Gwyn737 |
| US/Mexico Border on 21:04 - Aug 13 by Dr_Parnassus |
Do I think we are past what?
It’s all a complete waste of time Gwyn, a complete charade. From the kneeling to the booing. That’s why many people don’t like it, especially when losing.
But fans don’t get a platform, it’s their only form of showing they don’t like something. Sadly it clumsily gets interpreted however someone likes, it’s usually to suit their agenda and it all becomes one big cycle.
But let’s be honest here. If the players wanted to make an anti racism stance and not connect it to BLM, they wouldn’t do the knee. Whether you think people should make the connection is another argument all together, the fact is people are making the connection and the reasons why are pretty obvious.
There is some level of creating conflict to make the stance feel more needed. And I think many like the romance and image of being an activist. But you can only be an activist if there is an opposition.
I think, psychologically speaking, making everyone agree with a gesture takes away the importance of it. The conflict is what makes it feel like they are fighting for something. So taking away the political links will also take away the opposition to it… and I’m not convinced that’s what they want.
Does that make sense?
Nobody opposed the Kick it Out campaign we had for years with the players bringing out the kick it out flag. That’s because there was nothing to disagree with, no blurred political lines. Yet due to it having no opposition, I don’t think people found it worthwhile. Funny things, human beings. [Post edited 13 Aug 2021 21:07]
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I know what you mean about consensus but I think we have to keep trying.
The Kick It Out campaign didn’t do it. UEFA are a joke when it comes to sanctions.
Perhaps it does need to be fan led. In the last 10 years I’ve heard very little racial abuse whilst following the Swans (seen some pathetic individuals, in other circumstances, mind).
If there is racial abuse then we all need to call it out. | | | |
| US/Mexico Border on 21:22 - Aug 13 with 584 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| US/Mexico Border on 21:10 - Aug 13 by Gwyn737 |
I know what you mean about consensus but I think we have to keep trying.
The Kick It Out campaign didn’t do it. UEFA are a joke when it comes to sanctions.
Perhaps it does need to be fan led. In the last 10 years I’ve heard very little racial abuse whilst following the Swans (seen some pathetic individuals, in other circumstances, mind).
If there is racial abuse then we all need to call it out. |
I think we generally do though don’t we. Society is generally pretty good. I’m approaching 40 now, lived in a fair few countries in a fair few environments and I can probably count some kind of racism on one hand and each time it was called out immediately. Actually, the one time it wasn’t was when the victim was white.
But if there is genuine desire to further this anti racism thing and get everyone one board, then the most obvious place to start would be the gesture itself. Millwall of all clubs booed the knee, then roundly applauded the show of unity when they linked arms. Society has moved on and racism is rare in every day life if you don’t count online trolls.
This gesture and the boos that it will inevitably bring is only making the problem worse as it paints anyone who disagrees as a racist and as a result falsely inflates the scale of the issue. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. It’s almost like Kick it Out was too accepted so they have to create some villains and making it politically linked to get the opposition and then pretending that opposition is opposition to the message itself, does that.
People know deep down what’s going on here. But we are in an age where everything is twisted to suit narratives, I’ve not witnessed anything like it before. The last few years is crazy for it, from politics to football, everyone is altering reality to paint a completely different picture. Whether they are convincing themselves in the process I haven’t quite worked out yet. | |
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| US/Mexico Border on 21:28 - Aug 13 with 583 views | Gwyn737 |
| US/Mexico Border on 21:22 - Aug 13 by Dr_Parnassus |
I think we generally do though don’t we. Society is generally pretty good. I’m approaching 40 now, lived in a fair few countries in a fair few environments and I can probably count some kind of racism on one hand and each time it was called out immediately. Actually, the one time it wasn’t was when the victim was white.
But if there is genuine desire to further this anti racism thing and get everyone one board, then the most obvious place to start would be the gesture itself. Millwall of all clubs booed the knee, then roundly applauded the show of unity when they linked arms. Society has moved on and racism is rare in every day life if you don’t count online trolls.
This gesture and the boos that it will inevitably bring is only making the problem worse as it paints anyone who disagrees as a racist and as a result falsely inflates the scale of the issue. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. It’s almost like Kick it Out was too accepted so they have to create some villains and making it politically linked to get the opposition and then pretending that opposition is opposition to the message itself, does that.
People know deep down what’s going on here. But we are in an age where everything is twisted to suit narratives, I’ve not witnessed anything like it before. The last few years is crazy for it, from politics to football, everyone is altering reality to paint a completely different picture. Whether they are convincing themselves in the process I haven’t quite worked out yet. |
But I’d suggest that if you (people) can see through the emperor’s clothes, booing exacerbates the problem. It continues to make it political.
Positive opposition (such as I’ve just watched the Brentford fans clap Sakho on) would be fate more effective IMO. | | | |
| US/Mexico Border on 21:44 - Aug 13 with 574 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| US/Mexico Border on 21:28 - Aug 13 by Gwyn737 |
But I’d suggest that if you (people) can see through the emperor’s clothes, booing exacerbates the problem. It continues to make it political.
Positive opposition (such as I’ve just watched the Brentford fans clap Sakho on) would be fate more effective IMO. |
Well I think the problem is that it’s already a politically linked gesture, and football clubs are to blame for that as they pro actively made the link. So booing is a reaction to what people see as a political gesture. Even if the players have said it’s not, it’s still seen as promoting it visually. BLM really are an awful group.
Clapping Sako on is great in theory but again I feel it’s patronising. Not in intent, but in delivery, maybe he won’t think so, who knows. I think you just have to treat everyone the same. I personally think we need to stop giving such a fringe opinion so much air time and importance.
Online is a problem, but again I think that only explodes in reaction to how much attention it gets. If we were paying attention to people being called fat, online use of fat abuse would go through the roof. Anything that gets the most attention, online trolls use.
If there are incidents of racism then we can deal with the perpetrators on a case by case basis, no need to put society on trial where people seem to feel they have to show they aren’t racist as opposed to that being an assumption anyway.
The knee to me, even if we take away political links, seems to suggest there is some sort of systemic racism, which I wholeheartedly disagree with - as do many black people, and find the notion insulting and patronising, for good reason.
The insinuation that institutions are racist until proven otherwise with blame being put out into the ether without really pointing any fingers at anyone is a massive issue. Lack of black managers being a prime example, even though when you dig a bit you realise the amount of black managers is in proportion to the black managers in the pool of managers that are qualifying for their badges.
This attitude can get extrapolated to all walks of life right out to the police force that has been wrongfully typecast.
Call out individuals that are racist, absolutely. But let’s celebrate a fantastic society we are all fortunate enough to live in and stop pretending it’s some intolerant system of oppression. Because it’s most certainly isn’t. [Post edited 13 Aug 2021 21:52]
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| US/Mexico Border on 21:45 - Aug 13 with 573 views | Catullus |
| US/Mexico Border on 21:28 - Aug 13 by Gwyn737 |
But I’d suggest that if you (people) can see through the emperor’s clothes, booing exacerbates the problem. It continues to make it political.
Positive opposition (such as I’ve just watched the Brentford fans clap Sakho on) would be fate more effective IMO. |
Spurs fans clapped him on too,
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/fo
Attitudes and perceptions can be changed if people are willing to change. Intransigence is the enemy of change. | |
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| US/Mexico Border on 22:05 - Aug 13 with 559 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| US/Mexico Border on 21:45 - Aug 13 by Catullus |
Spurs fans clapped him on too,
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/fo
Attitudes and perceptions can be changed if people are willing to change. Intransigence is the enemy of change. |
Spurs fans are normal people, I’m sure they didn’t need to change in the first place. The overwhelming vast majority of the population felt awful for the kid that he missed that pen and some online trolls attacked him.
You would struggle to bump into someone who didnt. | |
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