| Loan system 22:06 - Aug 22 with 2681 views | WalterBoyd |
Brandon Cooper ( Newport) Benda ( Swindon) feels like 2 new signings for us.
Both have had a great start to the season and look like will be regulars in the starting 11 going forward.
Really great use of loan system or would they have improved us last year if we had kept them here ? |  | | |  |
| Loan system on 22:08 - Aug 22 with 1819 views | jasper_T |
Benda was here last season.
Brandon shouldn't have been recalled, back as emergency injury cover when he was one of the first names on the teamsheet there. Was cup tied for his first available game then got injured. | | | |
| Loan system on 22:10 - Aug 22 with 1815 views | KeithHaynes |
| Loan system on 22:08 - Aug 22 by jasper_T |
Benda was here last season.
Brandon shouldn't have been recalled, back as emergency injury cover when he was one of the first names on the teamsheet there. Was cup tied for his first available game then got injured. |
The ability to be aware we have talent that will develop massively utilising the loan system is the point, I think. |  |
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| Loan system on 22:11 - Aug 22 with 1811 views | Boundy |
IMO and in answer to your question , no they wouldn't have benefited staying here , it may well have benefited the U23's because I couldn't see either breaking into the 1st team last year . Playing regular at senior football level at their respective ages was vital for their development and I think we're now seeing that this season , still very much raw around the edges but they're both looking like more than decent | |
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| Loan system on 22:21 - Aug 22 with 1791 views | ItchySphincter |
This is not a negative post but it’s early days and I’m not sure about Cooper yet. He looks like he might be a player but he hasn’t really been tested yet. He can stroll out with the ball and organise a defence by the looks of it but not sure about his distribution or tackling ability. His long cross field passes look better than his short passing to me. Yet to see real proof of his defending. He looks promising but that’s all at the moment. |  |
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| Loan system on 22:49 - Aug 22 with 1764 views | WalterBoyd |
| Loan system on 22:10 - Aug 22 by KeithHaynes |
The ability to be aware we have talent that will develop massively utilising the loan system is the point, I think. |
Much better put.
I feel they are 2 great examples of players that have benefitted from loan system.
A few players could have / should have, been developed more by going on loan. I'd like to think its never too late although for some it probably is. | | | |
| Loan system on 23:18 - Aug 22 with 1723 views | jasper_T |
| Loan system on 22:49 - Aug 22 by WalterBoyd |
Much better put.
I feel they are 2 great examples of players that have benefitted from loan system.
A few players could have / should have, been developed more by going on loan. I'd like to think its never too late although for some it probably is. |
There's a good list of players who have been sent out in the last 3/4 years. Quite a few never returned, with the loan being almost a last roll of the dice before releasing them rather than a deliberate development strategy. Sink or swim over 6 months in a brand new environment. Some of them in a foreign country.
Can be difficult to find worthwhile offers. Last summer there were no takers for Oli Cooper outside the Welsh Prem. Dan James' time at Shrewsbury was detrimental, wasn't looked after in the short time he was there. Cam Toshack took Jack Evans to Cyprus and was then sacked the same night Jack played his first league game (even though they won).
But for early injuries to teammates Connor Roberts and Brandon Cooper likely wouldn't have played as much football as they did in their first loans. Lower league managers can just as conservative as those higher up and can be reluctant to put their trust in untested youth until forced to. Once the foot is in the door they'll be hard to shift if they're good players, but if they never get the nod (see Connor's second loan at Bristol Rovers) it can be a wasted half season training with worse coaches, worse teammates and worse facilities than if they'd stayed at home. | | | |
| Loan system on 23:34 - Aug 22 with 1696 views | WalterBoyd |
I totally agree it's a gamble and there is no guaranteed perfect scenario, but feel that for those players deemed not good enough for first team squad then a good loan experience in lower league CAN but not ALWAYS be a more rewarding experience than sticking with the under 23s.
Unfortunately no crystal ball and hindsight is easy...what works for some - stay with under 23s and what works better for others - loan, alot is down to the club to identify the correct club to loan to, the manager there, the players personality , what competition there is for their position, and so many more factors and a bit of luck always helps. Right time, right place. Same in most aspects of life really. | | | |
| Loan system on 23:35 - Aug 22 with 1691 views | Kilkennyjack |
Benda has looked pretty dodgy so far. |  |
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| Loan system on 00:25 - Aug 23 with 1650 views | Chief |
| Loan system on 23:35 - Aug 22 by Kilkennyjack |
Benda has looked pretty dodgy so far. |
His actual goalkeeping (in the literal sense) has been very good so far overall. Like how he comes for crosses confidently. His kicking is also decent.
His part in our gameplan of passing around the back as part of Martinball has been dodgy. Been at least 2 very near heart in mouth miss moments every game so far.
But I don't blame him for that he's been told to play that way &being as inexperienced as he is I'm not surprised at the errors. Hopefully this will improve over time& when the whole team become more comfortable with the style. |  |
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| Loan system on 00:32 - Aug 23 with 1644 views | Badlands |
For many players a good loan for 20 - 22 year olds is far more use than academy games |  |
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| Loan system on 00:44 - Aug 23 with 1633 views | WalterBoyd |
| Loan system on 23:35 - Aug 22 by Kilkennyjack |
Benda has looked pretty dodgy so far. |
I think he has all the attributes to become a great keeper. He is still only 22 years old , very young in goal keeper terms at this level.
He has shown so many positives that many keepers with many more years experience just simply dont have.
All the best to him. | | | |
| Loan system on 00:54 - Aug 23 with 1629 views | jasper_T |
| Loan system on 00:32 - Aug 23 by Badlands |
For many players a good loan for 20 - 22 year olds is far more use than academy games |
The ideal pathway (imo) is for us to find opportunities for them in our own senior side before shipping them off. The transition to senior football can be made easier if occurs in a familiar environment, with coaches, teammates and tactics they're familiar with, and who are familiar with them. The standard of competition is higher but also the standard of help. It doesn't have to be a "tough love" style shove into the deep end of professional football.
Once the player has learned to tread water, and provided roving scouts a bit of senior footage to work with, then loan options will be better. If we show we have faith in a player, clubs that don't know them half as well might show some as well.
The obvious problem is that you have to make short-term sacrifices/risks for longer term development objectives (never what a manager wants given they're usually a couple of months of poor form from a potential sacking). And there's rarely enough minutes to go around every player the club has future hopes for. Ideally we'd see Dan Williams get half a dozen spells off the bench and a few more starts between now and December, looking ahead to potential loans in January, but we've got 5 ahead of him in midfield all of whom will be desperate to play. Some want us to bring in a loan player if Grimes goes, because an academy player as backup to Downes, Fulton, Walsh and Smith is too scary. He should be shipped off to League Two for some other club to take the risks instead. | | | |
| Loan system on 01:07 - Aug 23 with 1616 views | WalterBoyd |
I understand what you are saying but an academy / loan player of a Championship team should hopefully have a chance of more game time at a league 2 team, as the standard should be lower and they have more chance to impress/ be needed and improve the lower league team than they would at a team at higher level.
True, managers at all levels are a number of bad results away from possible sack, but if an academy player from a higher level team can improve the team performance then less risk and more reward for rhe team.
Same as when we have players on loan from Man Utd , Chelse etc they can improve us but would maybe not improve the Man Utd / Chelsea first team. | | | |
| Loan system on 01:28 - Aug 23 with 1602 views | Rock |
| Loan system on 23:34 - Aug 22 by WalterBoyd |
I totally agree it's a gamble and there is no guaranteed perfect scenario, but feel that for those players deemed not good enough for first team squad then a good loan experience in lower league CAN but not ALWAYS be a more rewarding experience than sticking with the under 23s.
Unfortunately no crystal ball and hindsight is easy...what works for some - stay with under 23s and what works better for others - loan, alot is down to the club to identify the correct club to loan to, the manager there, the players personality , what competition there is for their position, and so many more factors and a bit of luck always helps. Right time, right place. Same in most aspects of life really. |
Agreed, Walter, there is a complex answer here, there are valid points from different angles. The simple answer is that each individual player has a different developmental need and requires a different and specific plan for their development, as Martin has said.
Some players need to live on their own and mature as men, toughen up mentally and/or physically, some need to work on certain aspects of their game, some need to learn different styles of football and coaching, etc. All in all, I would say more than anything they all need to actually play games, and academy football serves a purpose, but doesn’t really prepare them fully for what lies ahead in their careers. As they get older they need to learn how to play against men, that is what awaits them in professional football, regardless of what other factors come into play.
I’m of the opinion that each player needs the right manager, club and situation, but ultimately they need to go out and see what being a professional footballer is really about. Washing your own kit, cleaning your own boots, training on a public pitch, competing with guys scrapping to pay their mortgage and put food on the table. These are invaluable lessons they need to see for themselves. Academies are sanitised environments, places where every kid genuinely thinks they are a star before they’ve played a game. Finding out that’s not the case is an early lesson in life, and a vital wake-up call they need to buckle down and get to work or they’ll have to get used to that lifestyle too.
This is what Klopp said about young players getting games at Liverpool and I would apply it to us too, albeit slightly augmented for the difference in quality of the two divisions:
“We want to win, and to win football games the best players have to be on the pitch. If the young boys are part of these best players, then they will be on the pitch – but we won’t give them Premier League matches just for fun. They cannot be handed out like sweets.” |  | | |
| Loan system on 01:39 - Aug 23 with 1594 views | jasper_T |
| Loan system on 01:07 - Aug 23 by WalterBoyd |
I understand what you are saying but an academy / loan player of a Championship team should hopefully have a chance of more game time at a league 2 team, as the standard should be lower and they have more chance to impress/ be needed and improve the lower league team than they would at a team at higher level.
True, managers at all levels are a number of bad results away from possible sack, but if an academy player from a higher level team can improve the team performance then less risk and more reward for rhe team.
Same as when we have players on loan from Man Utd , Chelse etc they can improve us but would maybe not improve the Man Utd / Chelsea first team. |
The idea is to remove the "should hopefully" from the equation by giving a player exposure and experience in a more comfortable environment before tossing them down the pyramid to fight for a career. These are young men still developing as people as well as footballers. Conor Gallagher was leaving home for the first time when he came to us. Little wonder his Charlton form dropped off, as he was grappling with learning how to use a washing machine alongside Cooper's pressing instructions. | | | |
| Loan system on 01:43 - Aug 23 with 1591 views | WalterBoyd |
Something as simple but unsettling as moving a player away from the family unit where they need to grow up, socialise sensibly, stand on their own 2 feet can be just as important to a players development as time on pitch.
It really is survival of the fittest and who adapts best to the new challenges and environment progresses.
That's one of the reasons so few make it and the ones that do get paid so well. If it was easy, we would all be there knocking on the door. | | | |
| Loan system (n/t) on 01:46 - Aug 23 with 1590 views | jasper_T |
"It really is survival of the fittest and who adapts best to the new challenges and environment progresses."
From an individual perspective it is, but from the perspective of Swansea City these are assets. We have limited numbers and if we want to be successful (and justify the expense of the academy) it's in our interest to manage those challenges and pace them out along a player's development journey in a way that maximises the chance for success.
Good academies stack the deck in their favour. Klopp doesn't namedrop young Liverpool prospects by accident. [Post edited 23 Aug 2021 2:15]
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| Loan system on 08:12 - Aug 23 with 1494 views | Dr_Winston |
Funny how some of our players improved better elsewhere than the ones who stuck around under noted "developer of youth" Steve Cooper. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Loan system on 08:18 - Aug 23 with 1489 views | jack247 |
| Loan system on 23:35 - Aug 22 by Kilkennyjack |
Benda has looked pretty dodgy so far. |
There’s a tendency to see him as the new Neuer because he’s not Woodman.
He commands his area well. He’s brave and aggressive. His shot stopping is good too. He’s being asked to play a short passing game at the back and you can’t really afford any mistakes as a keeper doing that. He makes them. He plays some great long passes, he put one to a Bristol player half way inside our half on Friday. He certainly gets away with things Woodman would be hammered for. There’s a weird mix of absolute calmness and sheer panic about him.
Parallels with Russell Martin in some ways, I’m really happy overall, but he’s far from perfect. He’s going to win and lose us games this season. | | | |
| Loan system on 10:07 - Aug 23 with 1385 views | Dr_Winston |
| Loan system on 08:18 - Aug 23 by jack247 |
There’s a tendency to see him as the new Neuer because he’s not Woodman.
He commands his area well. He’s brave and aggressive. His shot stopping is good too. He’s being asked to play a short passing game at the back and you can’t really afford any mistakes as a keeper doing that. He makes them. He plays some great long passes, he put one to a Bristol player half way inside our half on Friday. He certainly gets away with things Woodman would be hammered for. There’s a weird mix of absolute calmness and sheer panic about him.
Parallels with Russell Martin in some ways, I’m really happy overall, but he’s far from perfect. He’s going to win and lose us games this season. |
Suspect the difference between the two is that Benda is iffy in areas that can be worked upon, whereas the biggest concerns about Woodman were more fundamental to goalkeeping. Both of them were/are decent shot stoppers, but that's the easy part.
For all the terror inducing aspects of his work on the ground, Benda can't be faulted otherwise. He's confident in his decision making and strong when coming for the ball. Knowing your keeper isn't going to be fixed to his line makes a difference to a defence.
There were far too many questions about Woodman in those areas, even with two full seasons under his belt. For all we know he could also have been just as iffy with the ball at his feet as much as Benda is being asked to be. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Loan system on 10:24 - Aug 23 with 1359 views | jack247 |
| Loan system on 10:07 - Aug 23 by Dr_Winston |
Suspect the difference between the two is that Benda is iffy in areas that can be worked upon, whereas the biggest concerns about Woodman were more fundamental to goalkeeping. Both of them were/are decent shot stoppers, but that's the easy part.
For all the terror inducing aspects of his work on the ground, Benda can't be faulted otherwise. He's confident in his decision making and strong when coming for the ball. Knowing your keeper isn't going to be fixed to his line makes a difference to a defence.
There were far too many questions about Woodman in those areas, even with two full seasons under his belt. For all we know he could also have been just as iffy with the ball at his feet as much as Benda is being asked to be. |
That’s fair comment. I’m not trying to compare the two and if I was, I’d prefer Benda.
He does get away with stuff (on here) that Woodman wouldn’t and he’s going to cost us avoidable goals. I agree in last seasons set up that wouldn’t be an issue as he wouldn’t be asked to play short passes whilst being pressed.
It’s very early days and so far I’m impressed with him. You’re right, the fundamentals look good. It may just be a case of getting him to calm down a bit. | | | |
| Loan system on 10:28 - Aug 23 with 1355 views | Dr_Winston |
Agree.
Composure should come with experience. He had a good season with Swindon but for all we know he might have been under instructions to get shot of the ball asap there and this is the first time he's ever been a sweeper-keeper. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Loan system on 10:48 - Aug 23 with 1328 views | onehunglow |
| Loan system on 10:07 - Aug 23 by Dr_Winston |
Suspect the difference between the two is that Benda is iffy in areas that can be worked upon, whereas the biggest concerns about Woodman were more fundamental to goalkeeping. Both of them were/are decent shot stoppers, but that's the easy part.
For all the terror inducing aspects of his work on the ground, Benda can't be faulted otherwise. He's confident in his decision making and strong when coming for the ball. Knowing your keeper isn't going to be fixed to his line makes a difference to a defence.
There were far too many questions about Woodman in those areas, even with two full seasons under his belt. For all we know he could also have been just as iffy with the ball at his feet as much as Benda is being asked to be. |
Where Benda is not iffy is on basic courage,something Woody lacked.
Benda seems mentally strong as well as physically.
I think he is and will be infinitely stronger than Woody and will not be wanting in tight situations .
Let’s face it,we all dreaded balls coming into the box with Woody stuck like lock tight on his line . | |
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| Loan system on 12:07 - Aug 23 with 1265 views | vetchonian |
| Loan system on 08:12 - Aug 23 by Dr_Winston |
Funny how some of our players improved better elsewhere than the ones who stuck around under noted "developer of youth" Steve Cooper. |
Get over your Cooper hatred hes gone ...but again please tell us who?
Of course the likes of Geuhi and Brewster had no benefit of development under Cooper.
From Jaspers posts it seems we have strathegy of farming out players in a hope of getting them off the books.
SOmething has been wrong with our whole development system... we failed to develop a "Leon replacement" JAck Evans had promise yet was shipped out....there is a lot it be said for what Jasper is advocating....it is a huge change to leave a familiar environment and then be "thrown" in the deep end ....Brandon Cooper probaly did well at Newport as he was probably still at home in usual domestic envirionment...whihc helps | |
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| Loan system on 13:27 - Aug 23 with 1188 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Loan system on 12:07 - Aug 23 by vetchonian |
Get over your Cooper hatred hes gone ...but again please tell us who?
Of course the likes of Geuhi and Brewster had no benefit of development under Cooper.
From Jaspers posts it seems we have strathegy of farming out players in a hope of getting them off the books.
SOmething has been wrong with our whole development system... we failed to develop a "Leon replacement" JAck Evans had promise yet was shipped out....there is a lot it be said for what Jasper is advocating....it is a huge change to leave a familiar environment and then be "thrown" in the deep end ....Brandon Cooper probaly did well at Newport as he was probably still at home in usual domestic envirionment...whihc helps |
The real good prospects in league 2 at least get played. Brandon Cooper walked in to Newport's team and has a big future. Tyler Reid and Jack Evans struggled to get game time under the same coach and face a future in non league football. That is just the way it is. Its a process of discovery.
Grimes and Connor Roberts at 19-20 could not get game time at Championship level but did in Leagues 1 and 2. Northampton and Yeovil. Joe Lewis is established at Torquay but given his cards at Swansea. Garrick thrived in League 1 with Swindon and was wanted back there which tells me he has a future.
Martin mentioned the club was "stocked " with young prospects. Easy to buy promising -players but they need development. At least 12 around the club. Only haf can expect decent game time with Swansea. 6 should go out o loan. The best guarentee of game time is league 2 or National league. It is a toughing up process. Cullen as a goalscorer should be able to notch at least 15 in league 2. Ollie Cooper, Webb, Whittaker, Dan Williams, Butler Rushesha when fit, all now done with u23 football should go to Torquay, Yeovil, Wrexham Solihull or maybe Sweden if the club has contacts. Get 40 games under the belt. It did wonders for Grimes who was effectively forgotten about for 12 months. |  |
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