| Second Homes in Wales 21:58 - Sep 18 with 3597 views | onehunglow | Dim Myr dai Haf Come on. Been in Nefyn this week.Things are very tasty down there and not in a good way. Debate or not? |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 20:01 - Sep 19 with 948 views | 73__73 |
| Second Homes in Wales on 17:05 - Sep 19 by krunchykarrot | I have worked 12hrs a day for 6 days a week to buy myself a second house on the coast which i have had for a long time and is payed for. I pay all relevant local taxes and utilities. Why should i have to pay more tax. Its up to me if i use it for 4days or 4months rent it or allow family to occupy. If you are a dipso or junkie you end up spending said taxes on housing treatment or god knows what, how do you propose spending this tax in the community and who spends it? |
Well done ðŸ‘. There are people though who will hate the fact that you can buy something nice, even though no doubt you’ve work hard for. The word I’m looking for is jealously. |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 09:37 - Sep 20 with 901 views | onehunglow |
| Second Homes in Wales on 20:01 - Sep 19 by 73__73 | Well done ðŸ‘. There are people though who will hate the fact that you can buy something nice, even though no doubt you’ve work hard for. The word I’m looking for is jealously. |
Yep. Krinch seems a good sort. Why should he not buy a home in Wales |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 10:29 - Sep 20 with 886 views | johnlangy |
| Second Homes in Wales on 09:39 - Sep 19 by onehunglow | Morning Just spend a week on Penn Llyn where this is THE biggest issue. We walked much and saw the most isolated cottages imaginable .No gas,no net,nothing but isolated spare farm on a treeless landscape.Both beautiful and sad.No place to live permanently in 2021 for locals in all honesty as there are no jobs there outside farming AND TOURISM. Without tourism ,there would be no jobs at all to speak of .Fact. It is tourists who purchase food ,drink,fuel, etc in bulk and keep any pubs and restaurants open. Schools are sparse and to get a degree means travel,often to England where they stay as that is where the jobs are .JOBS. Llyn has natural beauty and no industry whatsoever. It was often the case local lads went to Liverpool to learn Maritime qualifications and join their ship. Girls went to work in the mansions of Liverpool and Wirral ,where they often eventually married .Depopulation is nothing new. What is the point of a local buying an isolated cottage if he has no job nor any hope of one. The language is safe as no local speaks to tourists from England unless they are taking money from them. If you speak south Welsh you are still seen as an outsider. It is all about the right to live locally -as they say. Problem is what can they live on. Taxing aint the answer as people will simply pay it. Ostracising them wont either. Ive always found rural areas nice to visit but a hell hole to live in but that is just me and wifey.Solitude,isolation lead to loneliness.If you were to need Cancer treatment you face bigger issues as is the case if you need specialist Brain /Heart problems. Thanks the replies given. There s no easy answer to this althogh wifey suggested banning of second homes unless the purchaser has lived there 5 years .It's an idea. As for city life,there are other issues we face. Neither is perfect. |
When I talk about issues like this I always say my complaint is not about the individual or where he/she comes from. He/she is simply doing what is best for his or her family with the money they have. My criticism is ALWAYS directed at the Westminster governments. Levelling up means spreading wealth around the UK including rural areas. They shouldn't have to rely on just farming and tourism for work, low paid and seasonal for the majority (tourism). No wonder they can't afford to buy their own home. Many IT jobs can be done remotely. We all know that. They don't have to be in big population centres. There was an HMRC office in Caernarfon I believe (maybe Bangor). When they decided to centralise in one location, Cardiff, they closed that office. So they moved 50 jobs (around that number) to the place in Wales that least needs those jobs from a place that desperately DOES need them. And well paid, secure jobs at that compared with tourism. So those people could well afford to buy a house. And they didn't have to go to Liverpool or wherever to get them. The HMRC office is just one example. There could be many more spread around Wales and the UK generally When decisions like that are made they are, imo, purely poltical. Nothing to do with people or their needs. Politicians are elected to do their best for the people that elect them. So when they do the opposite what's the correct word to describe their actions. Is corruption too strong ? |  | |  |
| Second Homes in Wales on 10:32 - Sep 20 with 882 views | onehunglow |
| Second Homes in Wales on 10:29 - Sep 20 by johnlangy | When I talk about issues like this I always say my complaint is not about the individual or where he/she comes from. He/she is simply doing what is best for his or her family with the money they have. My criticism is ALWAYS directed at the Westminster governments. Levelling up means spreading wealth around the UK including rural areas. They shouldn't have to rely on just farming and tourism for work, low paid and seasonal for the majority (tourism). No wonder they can't afford to buy their own home. Many IT jobs can be done remotely. We all know that. They don't have to be in big population centres. There was an HMRC office in Caernarfon I believe (maybe Bangor). When they decided to centralise in one location, Cardiff, they closed that office. So they moved 50 jobs (around that number) to the place in Wales that least needs those jobs from a place that desperately DOES need them. And well paid, secure jobs at that compared with tourism. So those people could well afford to buy a house. And they didn't have to go to Liverpool or wherever to get them. The HMRC office is just one example. There could be many more spread around Wales and the UK generally When decisions like that are made they are, imo, purely poltical. Nothing to do with people or their needs. Politicians are elected to do their best for the people that elect them. So when they do the opposite what's the correct word to describe their actions. Is corruption too strong ? |
Fair comment. |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 11:02 - Sep 20 with 878 views | pencoedjack |
| Second Homes in Wales on 16:30 - Sep 19 by felixstowe_jack | You already have a modern tourist industry which makes up 9.9% of Welsh GDP. it also employs 130,000. Are you really suggesting you and your fanatics close down Wales biggest industry? |
I imagine in the near future people will holiday elsewhere other than in West Wales. I flew from Ibiza to Bristol (I had 3 flights cancelled out of Cardiff due to flights not being filled) quicker than it took me to get from Bristol to Bridgend due to the hold ups on the M4 around Newport. I guess the Welsh labour government manage to get over the bridge & look at all the new business units being built on the road leading into Bristol. Judging by the size of the new Amazon warehouse being built it wont be long before they use that to ship goods to South & West Wales resulting in the closure of the warehouse in Swansea. |  | |  |
| Second Homes in Wales on 12:30 - Sep 20 with 849 views | krunchykarrot |
| Second Homes in Wales on 11:02 - Sep 20 by pencoedjack | I imagine in the near future people will holiday elsewhere other than in West Wales. I flew from Ibiza to Bristol (I had 3 flights cancelled out of Cardiff due to flights not being filled) quicker than it took me to get from Bristol to Bridgend due to the hold ups on the M4 around Newport. I guess the Welsh labour government manage to get over the bridge & look at all the new business units being built on the road leading into Bristol. Judging by the size of the new Amazon warehouse being built it wont be long before they use that to ship goods to South & West Wales resulting in the closure of the warehouse in Swansea. |
Amazon warehouses stock different items, why would they close Swansea when as you say we have the infamous Bryn Glas tunnel and the compsany prides itself on delivery times and customer service. Just read some lazy headlines once again that Bojo is going to read the riot act to Bezos over tax and working conditions, seriously people need to know that full time Amazon contracts have a pension, critical illness insurance and access to private medical insurance. They are on more than the minimum wage and are attracting labour from low paid jobs in the area with a 1k signing on bonus as well. This is not bad considering you can be trained in less than a week and according to mates down the pub have as much O/time as they require. The question arising from your post is what the hell Corbyn lite is doing to our only airport and who does he think he is stopping us travelling due to his myopic testing policy we should have a first class airport instead it is dying on its feet which is par for the course following NHS Education etc. |  | |  |
| Second Homes in Wales on 14:51 - Sep 20 with 809 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Second Homes in Wales on 12:30 - Sep 20 by krunchykarrot | Amazon warehouses stock different items, why would they close Swansea when as you say we have the infamous Bryn Glas tunnel and the compsany prides itself on delivery times and customer service. Just read some lazy headlines once again that Bojo is going to read the riot act to Bezos over tax and working conditions, seriously people need to know that full time Amazon contracts have a pension, critical illness insurance and access to private medical insurance. They are on more than the minimum wage and are attracting labour from low paid jobs in the area with a 1k signing on bonus as well. This is not bad considering you can be trained in less than a week and according to mates down the pub have as much O/time as they require. The question arising from your post is what the hell Corbyn lite is doing to our only airport and who does he think he is stopping us travelling due to his myopic testing policy we should have a first class airport instead it is dying on its feet which is par for the course following NHS Education etc. |
Good post. Infrastructure in Wales is third world standard 20 years of misrule by the Senedd to blame. |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 15:32 - Sep 20 with 785 views | krunchykarrot |
| Second Homes in Wales on 14:51 - Sep 20 by felixstowe_jack | Good post. Infrastructure in Wales is third world standard 20 years of misrule by the Senedd to blame. |
People should also know Amazon build warehouses in areas of high unemployment and take on a variety of qualified people from all over the world. As for people going home after Brexit i asked my mate who is a manager in Swansea and he said that's rubbish. In fact he said that last Xmas sthey were employing lots of Africans as well. You get these politicians spouting off about the minimum wage how many working for our loal councils and paying union dues are finishing and going to Amazon with all of their perks. Seriously though i ve said this before how can career politicians or C/Service expect to run our NHS Drakeford and Labour could have made a big difference in Wales but they are so short sighted inward looking second or third rate |  | |  | Login to get fewer ads
| Second Homes in Wales on 16:55 - Sep 20 with 753 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Second Homes in Wales on 12:30 - Sep 20 by krunchykarrot | Amazon warehouses stock different items, why would they close Swansea when as you say we have the infamous Bryn Glas tunnel and the compsany prides itself on delivery times and customer service. Just read some lazy headlines once again that Bojo is going to read the riot act to Bezos over tax and working conditions, seriously people need to know that full time Amazon contracts have a pension, critical illness insurance and access to private medical insurance. They are on more than the minimum wage and are attracting labour from low paid jobs in the area with a 1k signing on bonus as well. This is not bad considering you can be trained in less than a week and according to mates down the pub have as much O/time as they require. The question arising from your post is what the hell Corbyn lite is doing to our only airport and who does he think he is stopping us travelling due to his myopic testing policy we should have a first class airport instead it is dying on its feet which is par for the course following NHS Education etc. |
Good post. Infrastructure in Wales is third world standard 20 years of misrule by the Senedd to blame. |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 20:40 - Sep 20 with 716 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second Homes in Wales on 16:55 - Sep 20 by felixstowe_jack | Good post. Infrastructure in Wales is third world standard 20 years of misrule by the Senedd to blame. |
So Westminster underfunds Cymru via Barnett - and Cymru is to blame. Nonsense. The NothWales expressway and the M4 pre date the Senedd and reveal everything. West to East links, put in place to extract for benefit of London. Same mindsets in place today. Brenda and Keith from Stoke buying an ice cream and a newspaper everyday are not the future. Cymru will be far better sorting out our own affairs. Cymru is treated the way an abusive husband treats his wife. Things are going to change soon. Think on this - if retired people had not voted in 2019 then our prime minister would be Jezza Corbyn. Change is coming. |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 20:48 - Sep 20 with 703 views | onehunglow |
| Second Homes in Wales on 20:40 - Sep 20 by Kilkennyjack | So Westminster underfunds Cymru via Barnett - and Cymru is to blame. Nonsense. The NothWales expressway and the M4 pre date the Senedd and reveal everything. West to East links, put in place to extract for benefit of London. Same mindsets in place today. Brenda and Keith from Stoke buying an ice cream and a newspaper everyday are not the future. Cymru will be far better sorting out our own affairs. Cymru is treated the way an abusive husband treats his wife. Things are going to change soon. Think on this - if retired people had not voted in 2019 then our prime minister would be Jezza Corbyn. Change is coming. |
Brenda and Keith are buying up all the properties in Abersoch ,which is the point Im making. You have to set aside any anti English sentiment;locals are full of it there. It doesnt help. Slate Industry is not going to come back neither is the fishing fleet of Llyn. There is nothing there to employ apart from that which Brenda and Keith provide. Have a word with any farmer there about the caravans being charged for the privilege of dumping their van in his field. Electricians,Plumbers,brickies,tilers and labourers are all reliant on tourists. |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 20:48 - Sep 20 with 703 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second Homes in Wales on 17:05 - Sep 19 by krunchykarrot | I have worked 12hrs a day for 6 days a week to buy myself a second house on the coast which i have had for a long time and is payed for. I pay all relevant local taxes and utilities. Why should i have to pay more tax. Its up to me if i use it for 4days or 4months rent it or allow family to occupy. If you are a dipso or junkie you end up spending said taxes on housing treatment or god knows what, how do you propose spending this tax in the community and who spends it? |
Because housing is a human right. You dont need 2 houses. Nobody does. Live in your new house and i have nothing to say. Live in it for 2 weeks a year then i have plenty to say about the impact that has on others. Dont be a selfish jerk or the locals will hate you. As you dont care then i would tax you to the highest level i can and give it all to the local schools, churches, amenities, and for the general benefit of the people of that area who have to put up with you. Dont be a billy big bollox, theres a good boy. Play nicely. |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 20:53 - Sep 20 with 697 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second Homes in Wales on 20:48 - Sep 20 by onehunglow | Brenda and Keith are buying up all the properties in Abersoch ,which is the point Im making. You have to set aside any anti English sentiment;locals are full of it there. It doesnt help. Slate Industry is not going to come back neither is the fishing fleet of Llyn. There is nothing there to employ apart from that which Brenda and Keith provide. Have a word with any farmer there about the caravans being charged for the privilege of dumping their van in his field. Electricians,Plumbers,brickies,tilers and labourers are all reliant on tourists. |
Sustainable touism is important, you are right. Its a model that Brenda and Keith will be part of, no doubt. Thats not tourism at any cost. Hundreds and hundreds of cars in Snowdon every day is not sustainable. Cymru is not a theme park. No future in thinking that way. Indy Wales will deliver an economy that works for Wales. Jobs for the local people outside of tourism is essential. John has covered this already. [Post edited 20 Sep 2021 20:56]
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| Second Homes in Wales on 20:55 - Sep 20 with 695 views | onehunglow |
| Second Homes in Wales on 20:48 - Sep 20 by Kilkennyjack | Because housing is a human right. You dont need 2 houses. Nobody does. Live in your new house and i have nothing to say. Live in it for 2 weeks a year then i have plenty to say about the impact that has on others. Dont be a selfish jerk or the locals will hate you. As you dont care then i would tax you to the highest level i can and give it all to the local schools, churches, amenities, and for the general benefit of the people of that area who have to put up with you. Dont be a billy big bollox, theres a good boy. Play nicely. |
It's called personal freedom. Plenty of signs about the right to live local. I do not believe that is a right. I had to basically move away and die on the vine. People have two cars .That ok. Sometimes 4 in a family because they are too idle. We all have too many clothes and Eat too much food. How about those who move to Llyn like my English chum did.Doesnt speak Welsh but provides House Security for locals who are living in isolation you wouldnt believe. He has a boat and a car too. He gives the fish he catches to a Care Home (for local people) |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 21:00 - Sep 20 with 695 views | majorraglan |
| Second Homes in Wales on 10:29 - Sep 20 by johnlangy | When I talk about issues like this I always say my complaint is not about the individual or where he/she comes from. He/she is simply doing what is best for his or her family with the money they have. My criticism is ALWAYS directed at the Westminster governments. Levelling up means spreading wealth around the UK including rural areas. They shouldn't have to rely on just farming and tourism for work, low paid and seasonal for the majority (tourism). No wonder they can't afford to buy their own home. Many IT jobs can be done remotely. We all know that. They don't have to be in big population centres. There was an HMRC office in Caernarfon I believe (maybe Bangor). When they decided to centralise in one location, Cardiff, they closed that office. So they moved 50 jobs (around that number) to the place in Wales that least needs those jobs from a place that desperately DOES need them. And well paid, secure jobs at that compared with tourism. So those people could well afford to buy a house. And they didn't have to go to Liverpool or wherever to get them. The HMRC office is just one example. There could be many more spread around Wales and the UK generally When decisions like that are made they are, imo, purely poltical. Nothing to do with people or their needs. Politicians are elected to do their best for the people that elect them. So when they do the opposite what's the correct word to describe their actions. Is corruption too strong ? |
Good point, it wasn’t only the North hat saw tax office closures, places like Aberystwyth, Carmarthen and Haverfordwest all saw their offices close. The lack of affordable housing in rural areas is a big issue and it’s not just Wales, the same is happening in Cornwall, Devon and places like Norfolk. I think it’s important to distinguish between places that operate as holiday lets or holiday cottages, quite often these properties are rented by visitors over an extended period, say 5 to 7 months and second homes which may only be occupied for 2 to 3 weeks a year and remain empty for the other 48 weeks. The former probably result in a lot more money being pumped in to the local community than the latter. Increased provision of affordable housing is something which has to be considered, but the government previously imposed caps on local authority capital building programmes which meant they couldn’t borrow to build more homes. Housing Associations have different rules and they have built houses and flats, but it’s not enough. |  | |  |
| Second Homes in Wales on 13:15 - Sep 21 with 641 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Second Homes in Wales on 20:40 - Sep 20 by Kilkennyjack | So Westminster underfunds Cymru via Barnett - and Cymru is to blame. Nonsense. The NothWales expressway and the M4 pre date the Senedd and reveal everything. West to East links, put in place to extract for benefit of London. Same mindsets in place today. Brenda and Keith from Stoke buying an ice cream and a newspaper everyday are not the future. Cymru will be far better sorting out our own affairs. Cymru is treated the way an abusive husband treats his wife. Things are going to change soon. Think on this - if retired people had not voted in 2019 then our prime minister would be Jezza Corbyn. Change is coming. |
Wales gets more under the Barnett formula than England how is that underfunding? How is an extra £3000 per person under? No doubt you will not explain or answer the question. |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 16:03 - Sep 21 with 604 views | krunchykarrot |
| Second Homes in Wales on 20:48 - Sep 20 by Kilkennyjack | Because housing is a human right. You dont need 2 houses. Nobody does. Live in your new house and i have nothing to say. Live in it for 2 weeks a year then i have plenty to say about the impact that has on others. Dont be a selfish jerk or the locals will hate you. As you dont care then i would tax you to the highest level i can and give it all to the local schools, churches, amenities, and for the general benefit of the people of that area who have to put up with you. Dont be a billy big bollox, theres a good boy. Play nicely. |
I have two houses because thats my human right and you dont know what circumstances and needs I or other people have. I can live anywhere i like as its a free country, what new house? You can stand outside with a megaphone if you like but id advise you to make sure one end has a lot of vaseline on it as the locals will shove it where the sun dont shine. I have paid tax at the highest level but shelterd it in my pensions when i had the oppurtunity. Drakeford and Politicians of all colours have been throwing money at education for years to no avail but i think you could be onto a winner as we need a good Grammar school. Churches i have a problem with as they have a very bad track record in abuse why you want to give them money i have no idea but people are free to worship whatever god they choose. Amenities its obvious that some of your neighbours must have broken your swing or pissed in your sandpit. As for the last sentence i never have. |  | |  |
| Second Homes in Wales on 17:59 - Sep 21 with 583 views | onehunglow |
| Second Homes in Wales on 16:03 - Sep 21 by krunchykarrot | I have two houses because thats my human right and you dont know what circumstances and needs I or other people have. I can live anywhere i like as its a free country, what new house? You can stand outside with a megaphone if you like but id advise you to make sure one end has a lot of vaseline on it as the locals will shove it where the sun dont shine. I have paid tax at the highest level but shelterd it in my pensions when i had the oppurtunity. Drakeford and Politicians of all colours have been throwing money at education for years to no avail but i think you could be onto a winner as we need a good Grammar school. Churches i have a problem with as they have a very bad track record in abuse why you want to give them money i have no idea but people are free to worship whatever god they choose. Amenities its obvious that some of your neighbours must have broken your swing or pissed in your sandpit. As for the last sentence i never have. |
It is a fact many families simply pyss away their money on transient shyte making no plan for the future at all. When it goes wrong,blame the State. I detest State interference. Either we are free or life is not worth living |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 20:53 - Sep 21 with 555 views | krunchykarrot |
| Second Homes in Wales on 17:59 - Sep 21 by onehunglow | It is a fact many families simply pyss away their money on transient shyte making no plan for the future at all. When it goes wrong,blame the State. I detest State interference. Either we are free or life is not worth living |
Yeh i agree, people need to get of their butts and go and find work apparently there is no better time. People who want massive state intervention want to take a look at history. Tax is not the only answer to every problem unless you are a socialist which are heavily union biased IMHO. Our NHS in Wales is in bits and needs radical reforming im just hoping someone can put aside party politics and think outside the box and get someone who has the experience and nous to change. |  | |  |
| Second Homes in Wales on 20:57 - Sep 21 with 543 views | onehunglow |
| Second Homes in Wales on 20:53 - Sep 21 by krunchykarrot | Yeh i agree, people need to get of their butts and go and find work apparently there is no better time. People who want massive state intervention want to take a look at history. Tax is not the only answer to every problem unless you are a socialist which are heavily union biased IMHO. Our NHS in Wales is in bits and needs radical reforming im just hoping someone can put aside party politics and think outside the box and get someone who has the experience and nous to change. |
There are countless ways to avoid tax. Go self employed,although not sure socialism encourages that else people get wealthy. I was elf employed for a few years and my accountant opened my eyes wide. I was staggered. |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 21:06 - Sep 21 with 535 views | krunchykarrot |
| Second Homes in Wales on 20:57 - Sep 21 by onehunglow | There are countless ways to avoid tax. Go self employed,although not sure socialism encourages that else people get wealthy. I was elf employed for a few years and my accountant opened my eyes wide. I was staggered. |
The thing is all i see is people carping on wanting "Big State poiicies" why cant people just take responsibility. |  | |  |
| Second Homes in Wales on 17:06 - Sep 22 with 462 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Second Homes in Wales on 21:06 - Sep 21 by krunchykarrot | The thing is all i see is people carping on wanting "Big State poiicies" why cant people just take responsibility. |
Because we believe in the concept of society in Cymru. and its not just me, me, me ….. Look after those who need some help. Its that basic. One day it might be you or I …. The Welsh NHS is outstandingly good. Society in action and at its best. No to the Tory privatisation of our NHS by deliberate underfunding and stealth. |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 18:39 - Sep 22 with 436 views | krunchykarrot |
| Second Homes in Wales on 17:06 - Sep 22 by Kilkennyjack | Because we believe in the concept of society in Cymru. and its not just me, me, me ….. Look after those who need some help. Its that basic. One day it might be you or I …. The Welsh NHS is outstandingly good. Society in action and at its best. No to the Tory privatisation of our NHS by deliberate underfunding and stealth. |
You obviously have not used it lately. Goodbye. |  | |  |
| Second Homes in Wales on 18:57 - Sep 22 with 431 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Second Homes in Wales on 17:06 - Sep 22 by Kilkennyjack | Because we believe in the concept of society in Cymru. and its not just me, me, me ….. Look after those who need some help. Its that basic. One day it might be you or I …. The Welsh NHS is outstandingly good. Society in action and at its best. No to the Tory privatisation of our NHS by deliberate underfunding and stealth. |
My friend aged 50, is a regular runner, she developed an injury in her foot a few months ago and she now struggles to walk. Last week she got to see the specialist, he said it needed surgery and it would take 18 months to 2 years to get it done. She asked about paying for the surgery as she loves running. The specialist said it would cost about £3,000 and he could it next Wednesday!!!! That's the Welsh NHS. |  |
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| Second Homes in Wales on 19:46 - Sep 22 with 416 views | 73__73 |
| Second Homes in Wales on 20:40 - Sep 20 by Kilkennyjack | So Westminster underfunds Cymru via Barnett - and Cymru is to blame. Nonsense. The NothWales expressway and the M4 pre date the Senedd and reveal everything. West to East links, put in place to extract for benefit of London. Same mindsets in place today. Brenda and Keith from Stoke buying an ice cream and a newspaper everyday are not the future. Cymru will be far better sorting out our own affairs. Cymru is treated the way an abusive husband treats his wife. Things are going to change soon. Think on this - if retired people had not voted in 2019 then our prime minister would be Jezza Corbyn. Change is coming. |
Do you still think the U.K. will rejoin the Frankenstein project within 5 years |  |
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