| More information on the Convertible Loan note 19:41 - Dec 3 with 12694 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
This is an extract from the Structured dialogue held early this month. (presented on Planetswans) . Given in parenthesis
[Julian stated that last year ownership invested, via a loan note, around £10-13 million. Jake Silverstein invested half, Jason Levien and Steve Kaplan matched that and some of our other shareholders contributed smaller amounts, into a convertible loan note. This club is a debt free club, apart from the convertible loan note, which is designed to leave the club debt free. We have capacity in the loan note to be able to do more and there will be a need this year for them to do more. We need to understand what we need from the January window and get through the beginning of the summer window. Our financial year is from August, so if a player is sold in July, then it would go into this year’s numbers.]
It seems some of the local shareholders may also have contributed. Interesting.
[Post edited 3 Dec 2021 19:44]
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 19:37 - Dec 11 with 810 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 11:04 - Dec 11 by Catullus |
Thing is Chief, I'm not attacking the American owners. I think they are doing OK. Its the fantasy ramblings that Terry Pratchett would have been proud of that get me.
Now that it's clear the trust weren't invited and didn't know anything until it was publicised maybe Res will give over.
I won't hold my breath though. |
My experience is with share buy backs. In this case all shareholders are invited to buy new shares as a method of raising capital. The new shares are at a discounted price. The obligation to include all shareholders is probably defined in UK business law. If it is over subscribed you get less shares than you applied for.
The CLN is however different as it is initially a loan as Chief keeps telling me. The company may therefore have no obligation to offer all shareholders the opportunity to loan money to the club at 5% interest rates. I have done some research and find no information on original shareholders having 'the right' to join the CLN. I stand to be corrected on this of course.
I suspect in this case the CLN was limited to Silverstein and the Levien group with all other shareholders left out. The loan was reported as £10m. I suspect at this point some other shareholders piped up and requested to join in order to protect their % holding. This request was agreed to and might explain the vague £10m -£13m reference. It could be that the SCST themselves can join if they make a request.
This option might be open to them in the second tranche which Winter alluded too. The SCST should drop legal cases and actually make money not waste it. Invest £500,000 and take £25,000 pa in interest. 5% is great than inflation therefore providing growth. | |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 19:52 - Dec 11 with 798 views | Chief |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 19:37 - Dec 11 by ReslovenSwan1 |
My experience is with share buy backs. In this case all shareholders are invited to buy new shares as a method of raising capital. The new shares are at a discounted price. The obligation to include all shareholders is probably defined in UK business law. If it is over subscribed you get less shares than you applied for.
The CLN is however different as it is initially a loan as Chief keeps telling me. The company may therefore have no obligation to offer all shareholders the opportunity to loan money to the club at 5% interest rates. I have done some research and find no information on original shareholders having 'the right' to join the CLN. I stand to be corrected on this of course.
I suspect in this case the CLN was limited to Silverstein and the Levien group with all other shareholders left out. The loan was reported as £10m. I suspect at this point some other shareholders piped up and requested to join in order to protect their % holding. This request was agreed to and might explain the vague £10m -£13m reference. It could be that the SCST themselves can join if they make a request.
This option might be open to them in the second tranche which Winter alluded too. The SCST should drop legal cases and actually make money not waste it. Invest £500,000 and take £25,000 pa in interest. 5% is great than inflation therefore providing growth. |
"as Chief keeps telling me" am incorrect then? It is a loan is it not?
Yes I've stated this myself. Until they convert this loan (and give up their 5% interest) there maybe no obligation to include anyone else.
You've stated many times that they should have. Not me. Are you admitting you were wrong?
Right, so after all this nonsense and bluster, you are finally actually agreeing with me-
The trust were not invited to part of the CLN
The trust were not informed of any other shareholders involvement
Do you concur that you were wrong?
The 2nd CLN potential CLN is completely hypothetical (and completely new information to the trust) so we'll park that for now....... |  |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 21:03 - Dec 11 with 772 views | BillyChong |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 19:37 - Dec 11 by ReslovenSwan1 |
My experience is with share buy backs. In this case all shareholders are invited to buy new shares as a method of raising capital. The new shares are at a discounted price. The obligation to include all shareholders is probably defined in UK business law. If it is over subscribed you get less shares than you applied for.
The CLN is however different as it is initially a loan as Chief keeps telling me. The company may therefore have no obligation to offer all shareholders the opportunity to loan money to the club at 5% interest rates. I have done some research and find no information on original shareholders having 'the right' to join the CLN. I stand to be corrected on this of course.
I suspect in this case the CLN was limited to Silverstein and the Levien group with all other shareholders left out. The loan was reported as £10m. I suspect at this point some other shareholders piped up and requested to join in order to protect their % holding. This request was agreed to and might explain the vague £10m -£13m reference. It could be that the SCST themselves can join if they make a request.
This option might be open to them in the second tranche which Winter alluded too. The SCST should drop legal cases and actually make money not waste it. Invest £500,000 and take £25,000 pa in interest. 5% is great than inflation therefore providing growth. |
The Trust are not a bunch of hedge funders, charging 5% interest on a loan to a club they support is out of the question |  | | |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 21:54 - Dec 11 with 762 views | max936 |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 23:25 - Dec 10 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Swansea city represents itself as a Community club and is 21% owned by fans. The query will be a follow on from the Structured dialogue where Mr Winter explained a few things to the SCST representative and 7 invited fans. It was the CLUB that invited the fans. |
21% Fans owned which you are not a member of, so keep your beak out Agent Huw , |  | | |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 22:32 - Dec 11 with 739 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 21:03 - Dec 11 by BillyChong |
The Trust are not a bunch of hedge funders, charging 5% interest on a loan to a club they support is out of the question |
You have the mentality of a loser and support giving £7m to the English ruling elite of bankers lawyers and fixers through the legal case. Follow the cash. Your attitude confirms to me Swansea fans are not up to the job of being owners.
The SCST have a net balance of MINUS £400,000. They put in £200k in 2002 and took out £600k in 2014.
Like any organisation if they cannot raise money they will slowly wilt and die.
Inside the club they can
a) Buy and sell shares (messed it up in 2016)
b) Collect dividends (collected £600k 2014 or so)
c) Loan money to the club and collect interest. (not interested)
Outside the club
a) Subscriptions currently £5 or £6k per year.
With inflation at 4% their £15m by legal action will slowly wither. 3.85% per year sees a potential £15m reduce to £10.13m after 10 years and £6.8m after 20 years. In real terms.
After 20 years they will be forgotten. Lazy old men with no imagination and no sense. They may as well keep the cash in a cardboard box. Giving them £15m for their shares is bad business. If the SCST cannot do good business no one will touch them as partners.
The US people are currently subsidising the season tickets to the tune of £1.7m a season according to Winter.
Levien is not a hedge funder and neither is Silverstein. They are sports investors. | |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 22:43 - Dec 11 with 735 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 19:52 - Dec 11 by Chief |
"as Chief keeps telling me" am incorrect then? It is a loan is it not?
Yes I've stated this myself. Until they convert this loan (and give up their 5% interest) there maybe no obligation to include anyone else.
You've stated many times that they should have. Not me. Are you admitting you were wrong?
Right, so after all this nonsense and bluster, you are finally actually agreeing with me-
The trust were not invited to part of the CLN
The trust were not informed of any other shareholders involvement
Do you concur that you were wrong?
The 2nd CLN potential CLN is completely hypothetical (and completely new information to the trust) so we'll park that for now....... |
I have no idea whether they were invited or not. I have only your word for it and that is not good enough for me. I also do not know if they were informed of other shareholders. They speak to Winter every week or two. I encourage them to network effectively. Winter will answer their questions. I drew the forums attention to the "other shareholders" quote in the structured dialogue. (pleased to be of service)
Yes the SCST are not very sharp it seems. Winter has asked for more cash. If you are a smart person you will realise he would not ask for it unless he has already been 'tipped the wink' and told more money is coming. CLN mechanisms are nice because they can be supplemented easily. I am no expert but it was noted by general research. | |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 22:43 - Dec 11 with 735 views | BillyChong |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 22:32 - Dec 11 by ReslovenSwan1 |
You have the mentality of a loser and support giving £7m to the English ruling elite of bankers lawyers and fixers through the legal case. Follow the cash. Your attitude confirms to me Swansea fans are not up to the job of being owners.
The SCST have a net balance of MINUS £400,000. They put in £200k in 2002 and took out £600k in 2014.
Like any organisation if they cannot raise money they will slowly wilt and die.
Inside the club they can
a) Buy and sell shares (messed it up in 2016)
b) Collect dividends (collected £600k 2014 or so)
c) Loan money to the club and collect interest. (not interested)
Outside the club
a) Subscriptions currently £5 or £6k per year.
With inflation at 4% their £15m by legal action will slowly wither. 3.85% per year sees a potential £15m reduce to £10.13m after 10 years and £6.8m after 20 years. In real terms.
After 20 years they will be forgotten. Lazy old men with no imagination and no sense. They may as well keep the cash in a cardboard box. Giving them £15m for their shares is bad business. If the SCST cannot do good business no one will touch them as partners.
The US people are currently subsidising the season tickets to the tune of £1.7m a season according to Winter.
Levien is not a hedge funder and neither is Silverstein. They are sports investors. |
Where did you get that £7m figure from? | | | |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 22:56 - Dec 11 with 727 views | Chief |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 22:43 - Dec 11 by ReslovenSwan1 |
I have no idea whether they were invited or not. I have only your word for it and that is not good enough for me. I also do not know if they were informed of other shareholders. They speak to Winter every week or two. I encourage them to network effectively. Winter will answer their questions. I drew the forums attention to the "other shareholders" quote in the structured dialogue. (pleased to be of service)
Yes the SCST are not very sharp it seems. Winter has asked for more cash. If you are a smart person you will realise he would not ask for it unless he has already been 'tipped the wink' and told more money is coming. CLN mechanisms are nice because they can be supplemented easily. I am no expert but it was noted by general research. |
You do have an idea - the Trust have confirmed as such. And don't use the cop out that you don't believe me. I can't your bluff. You were hoping I wouldn't confirm my suspicions. Well I did.
The trust weren't invited.
The trust weren't Informed of other shareholders involvement.
Stop pretending otherwise.
Winter is the CEO. He deals with day to day operations I the running of the club. While I have no doubt the trust have asked him for clarification repeatedly, as a non shareholder himself, I wouldn't expect a definitive answer from him. He's certainly been a messenger for the Americans though.
Hahaha don't get ratty now because you've been completely and utterly exposed again! You were wrong. Grow up and admit you were wrong. Don't have a hissy fit now because your scenarios and fantasies have been proven to be inaccurate. | |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 23:10 - Dec 11 with 717 views | Chief |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 22:32 - Dec 11 by ReslovenSwan1 |
You have the mentality of a loser and support giving £7m to the English ruling elite of bankers lawyers and fixers through the legal case. Follow the cash. Your attitude confirms to me Swansea fans are not up to the job of being owners.
The SCST have a net balance of MINUS £400,000. They put in £200k in 2002 and took out £600k in 2014.
Like any organisation if they cannot raise money they will slowly wilt and die.
Inside the club they can
a) Buy and sell shares (messed it up in 2016)
b) Collect dividends (collected £600k 2014 or so)
c) Loan money to the club and collect interest. (not interested)
Outside the club
a) Subscriptions currently £5 or £6k per year.
With inflation at 4% their £15m by legal action will slowly wither. 3.85% per year sees a potential £15m reduce to £10.13m after 10 years and £6.8m after 20 years. In real terms.
After 20 years they will be forgotten. Lazy old men with no imagination and no sense. They may as well keep the cash in a cardboard box. Giving them £15m for their shares is bad business. If the SCST cannot do good business no one will touch them as partners.
The US people are currently subsidising the season tickets to the tune of £1.7m a season according to Winter.
Levien is not a hedge funder and neither is Silverstein. They are sports investors. |
Flat out generic copy and paste full of inaccuracies and assumptions.
Stop stalling.
You were wrong weren't you?
And the Americans / Winter have acted poorly in relation to the CLN haven't they? | |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 15:08 - Dec 12 with 687 views | Algorfajack |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 16:26 - Dec 9 by ReslovenSwan1 |
I opened this thread to investigate the application of the CLN. At first to was presented as an unspecified amount limited to the US owners and a new investor Jake Silverstein. It was thought to be for £5m with 5% interest pa if not converted. Posters quoted that 5% was excessive and an example of US owners taking money out of the club.
Winter has recently revealed it was not limited to the US but 'other shareholders' as well. This suggests the local owners and sellers that remained. If it was open to 'other shareholders' it was probably open to the SCST as well. Chief tell this board that they were excluded with out any corroborating evidence.
Why should the US people and seller be able to access potential the 5% returns but not the SCST? Why did the SCST not raise the subject in the structured dialogue?
I do not understand why they would decline a potential 5% while in their last accounts reporting a 0.15% on their Santander account? The SCST got £1320 interest from the Santander. At 5% they would get a potential £44,000 pa.
The SCST either were excluded or declined the offer. Which is it? |
It does not matter if the Trust were excluded or declined the offer, although in my opinion I think it was probably the former.
What is important to remember is that the Trust were not formed with the intention of taking money out of the club. Their sole reason for existing is to ensure that a professional football club remains in Swansea should the club face insolvency.
Taking money out would therefore be contradicting everything they stand for. |  |
| Prediction league winner 2016-2017 aka llanedeyrnjack |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 15:24 - Dec 12 with 677 views | max936 |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 15:08 - Dec 12 by Algorfajack |
It does not matter if the Trust were excluded or declined the offer, although in my opinion I think it was probably the former.
What is important to remember is that the Trust were not formed with the intention of taking money out of the club. Their sole reason for existing is to ensure that a professional football club remains in Swansea should the club face insolvency.
Taking money out would therefore be contradicting everything they stand for. |
"What is important to remember is that the Trust were not formed with the intention of taking money out of the club. Their sole reason for existing is to ensure that a professional football club remains in Swansea should the club face insolvency."
Yep its as simple as that to people who haven't got agendas. | | | |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 16:40 - Dec 12 with 665 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 15:08 - Dec 12 by Algorfajack |
It does not matter if the Trust were excluded or declined the offer, although in my opinion I think it was probably the former.
What is important to remember is that the Trust were not formed with the intention of taking money out of the club. Their sole reason for existing is to ensure that a professional football club remains in Swansea should the club face insolvency.
Taking money out would therefore be contradicting everything they stand for. |
Please get them therefore return the approximately £600,000 paid to them in dividends around 2014 -2015.
They have used roughly £250,000 of this dividend (according to accounts) to pay for legal advice. Some of this will relate to advice for leaving the club by forcing the other owners to buy their shares at an inflated price.
In my opinion they should re invest this dividend money in the next tranche of CLN loan and explain to Winter they want the interest payment.
They is no problem in taking dividends and interest to protect themselves against inflation as long as they reinvest the money back in the club. The moral problem comes when they pay third party interests with no interest in football big sums from their account.
You have a perfectly acceptable moral position but it is too simplistic and is already compromised. Pay back the dividends if you have such a pure moral position. It is about £600k. "Everything you stand for" costs £600k. A cheque will do fine. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:44]
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 16:48 - Dec 12 with 657 views | Chief |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 16:40 - Dec 12 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Please get them therefore return the approximately £600,000 paid to them in dividends around 2014 -2015.
They have used roughly £250,000 of this dividend (according to accounts) to pay for legal advice. Some of this will relate to advice for leaving the club by forcing the other owners to buy their shares at an inflated price.
In my opinion they should re invest this dividend money in the next tranche of CLN loan and explain to Winter they want the interest payment.
They is no problem in taking dividends and interest to protect themselves against inflation as long as they reinvest the money back in the club. The moral problem comes when they pay third party interests with no interest in football big sums from their account.
You have a perfectly acceptable moral position but it is too simplistic and is already compromised. Pay back the dividends if you have such a pure moral position. It is about £600k. "Everything you stand for" costs £600k. A cheque will do fine. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:44]
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Those dividends were taken when the club was a premier league team, not requiring loans and making money. So let not pretend the situation is the same.
Yes the trust have 'invested' some of their dividend towards potentially making a lot more money. Money whichs sole purpose will be for future use in the club.
The trust weren't invited into the current CLN nor informed of it in a timely fashion. So not sure why the next cln would be any different.
No moral problem at all with remedying legal issues that were not of their making. You should put the blame for needing legal action at the Americans and sellouts door
Will Huw and the otter dividend takers be repaying theirs too?
You're tripping yourself up on your crazy fantasies and scenarios again. Only the day you were banging about the trust taking dividends as a way of gaining funds. Now you're saying they should repay previous dividends? Bizarre. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:53]
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 17:20 - Dec 12 with 646 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 16:48 - Dec 12 by Chief |
Those dividends were taken when the club was a premier league team, not requiring loans and making money. So let not pretend the situation is the same.
Yes the trust have 'invested' some of their dividend towards potentially making a lot more money. Money whichs sole purpose will be for future use in the club.
The trust weren't invited into the current CLN nor informed of it in a timely fashion. So not sure why the next cln would be any different.
No moral problem at all with remedying legal issues that were not of their making. You should put the blame for needing legal action at the Americans and sellouts door
Will Huw and the otter dividend takers be repaying theirs too?
You're tripping yourself up on your crazy fantasies and scenarios again. Only the day you were banging about the trust taking dividends as a way of gaining funds. Now you're saying they should repay previous dividends? Bizarre. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 16:53]
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The poster stated that SCST taking money out of the club "goes against everything they stand for". Oh really. Give it back then. £600k.
The options are a
a) A gift
b) Consider buying new shares at discounted price
c) A simple loan the club the money as part of the CLN. (5% pa)
SCST seems to have no problem collecting dividends in the good days but when times are hard does not want to help with loans. At the same time it cannot make money outside the club it seems.
The CLN is ideal for them. They should ring Mr Winters and lodge £500,000 in the next CLN tranche. What tranche? The new money Mr Winter mentioned. Its called networking.
The Trust should definitely take dividends and take interest payments by contributing to the CLN. They should not wait for an invitation. Why does the club need to invite them to make a loan? They should work together with the US people and other shareholders to buy and sell their shares at opportune times. They do not need to take anyone to court to make good money or pay excessive fees to English third parties.
The sensible member need to take charge and reject "small town politics". The sensible members should investigate money making schemes in line with their constitution. The next CLN is one of these. The sensible members should reject bogus high moral positioning as outlined by Chong. The SCST is not the Women's institute. Making big money is allowed. | |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 17:50 - Dec 12 with 641 views | Chief |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 17:20 - Dec 12 by ReslovenSwan1 |
The poster stated that SCST taking money out of the club "goes against everything they stand for". Oh really. Give it back then. £600k.
The options are a
a) A gift
b) Consider buying new shares at discounted price
c) A simple loan the club the money as part of the CLN. (5% pa)
SCST seems to have no problem collecting dividends in the good days but when times are hard does not want to help with loans. At the same time it cannot make money outside the club it seems.
The CLN is ideal for them. They should ring Mr Winters and lodge £500,000 in the next CLN tranche. What tranche? The new money Mr Winter mentioned. Its called networking.
The Trust should definitely take dividends and take interest payments by contributing to the CLN. They should not wait for an invitation. Why does the club need to invite them to make a loan? They should work together with the US people and other shareholders to buy and sell their shares at opportune times. They do not need to take anyone to court to make good money or pay excessive fees to English third parties.
The sensible member need to take charge and reject "small town politics". The sensible members should investigate money making schemes in line with their constitution. The next CLN is one of these. The sensible members should reject bogus high moral positioning as outlined by Chong. The SCST is not the Women's institute. Making big money is allowed. |
The trust stands for safeguarding the future of the club. Taking a dividend alongside the other shareholders at a time when the club is on the up to use in a legal case to secure substantial funds in future. Taking an inflated interest out of the club in the championship when the club is supposedly needing loans to function is certainly not safeguarding the future of the club.
Irrelevant options, none are feasible in the slightest currently.
The trust were not asked to help out with loans. This has been told to you and proven to you.
Winter needs to learn networking then. A public fan forum is not the place for this. And anyway, as per the first CLN, the trust will probably be excluded.
So they should take dividends? But then pay them back!? Are you confused? I don't think a minority shareholder would have the power to loan the club money. How can the trust work together with the Americans when the Americans are still after all this time not bothering to engage? As we know they didn't inform the trust of the CLN nor invite them to join it. No they don't, but it's by the far the most realistic option that makes the most business sense.
It is allowed - they plan to do just that by selling their shares to the Americans.
I notice you've completely glossed over the fact that your assumptions earlier in the thread were completely false. Care to comment on that or are you going to continue to ignore it?
Did you contact the club? Or did laziness trump your curiosity? | |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:17 - Dec 12 with 632 views | shingle |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:42 - Dec 11 by Chief |
 whey |
Owned yet again i see Napoleon.  | | | |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:19 - Dec 12 with 630 views | Chief |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:17 - Dec 12 by shingle |
Owned yet again i see Napoleon. |
haha brilliant | |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:34 - Dec 12 with 622 views | shingle |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:19 - Dec 12 by Chief |
haha brilliant |
I Know.  | | | |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:39 - Dec 12 with 613 views | Chief |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:34 - Dec 12 by shingle |
I Know. |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:41 - Dec 12 with 613 views | Catullus |
Two more who need to get a room!
Groundhog thread warning  | |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:54 - Dec 12 with 602 views | shingle |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:39 - Dec 12 by Chief |
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You get constantly owned by Resloven and take it out on us, what have we done.  | | | |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:58 - Dec 12 with 599 views | Chief |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:54 - Dec 12 by shingle |
You get constantly owned by Resloven and take it out on us, what have we done. |
He he | |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 19:02 - Dec 12 with 593 views | shingle |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 18:58 - Dec 12 by Chief |
He he |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 19:04 - Dec 12 with 590 views | Chief |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 19:02 - Dec 12 by shingle |
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| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 19:09 - Dec 12 with 585 views | shingle |
| More information on the Convertible Loan note on 19:04 - Dec 12 by Chief |
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