| Russia invade Ukraine 14:17 - Dec 23 with 152922 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
Discuss.
Also why is Putin always described in the media as this rugged strongman? He’s barely five foot tall with his high heels on.
But that’s another debate.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |  |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 15:28 - Mar 30 with 979 views | controversial_jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 14:57 - Mar 30 by Scotia |
We don't know that the Yanks killed 6000 during shock and awe - apparently that's one estimate by the anti war think tank "the Oxford research group". Others put the number at far fewer. The 6000 is as much propaganda as anything else, you elieve it becasue you want to. We don't know the true number.
It's not propaganda that Putin is targetting civilians, it's clear he is. The entire civilian population of Mariupol are being targeted by siege and bombardment, amongest other places. [Post edited 30 Mar 2022 15:00]
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This is just from airstrikes alone. 100K Us airstrikes since 9/11
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/sep/07/us-airstrikes-killed- | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 15:42 - Mar 30 with 959 views | Scotia |
Great. That's not what the question was.
Why does that make it ok for Putin to deliberately kill civillians? | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 15:54 - Mar 30 with 946 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 15:42 - Mar 30 by Scotia |
Great. That's not what the question was.
Why does that make it ok for Putin to deliberately kill civillians? |
Putin: “Nuke Kiev. Kill them all”
These fools: “But the British killed loads of Zulus at Rourkes Drift” | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:10 - Mar 30 with 942 views | Lorax |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 11:40 - Mar 30 by controversial_jack |
No! Trying to look at it in an unbiased way and trying to determine facts from propaganda is not supporting anything. Weren't you taught this at school or wherever you had your education? I was. |
There is nothing unbiased in saying things like "before we get too upset with Putin" and then embarking on a massive round of whataboutery (I hate that word but it's apt here)
You keep saying ah but.....so lets put a few more facts out there, the USA did not invade Iraq or Afghanistan alone, they were part of a coalition that was, at the time approved by most of the people in the countries involved.
Syria, Panama...how about my own whataboutery, what about Dagestan, Chechnya, Crimea...UKRAINE. What about Hungary, Czechoslovakia....
and why do any of those things the USA did make Putin's invasion of Ukraine OK? Why do you keep making excuses for him, there's nothing but bias in always spouting excuses for him.
Your not finding facts and decrying propaganda, you keep making excuses for Putin and keep saying ah, but what about!
PS< the USA has done a lot more covert work on regime change than actual invading. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:18 - Mar 30 with 930 views | Boundy |
There too many apologists & posters acting in desperation when looking for justification for Putin's actions on here for my liking .If Putin can be so wrong in trying to justify his countries actions then what ever they post has no bearing on reality today. In an hourlong speech recently, he made a factually inaccurate historical argument claiming that Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin invented Ukraine and that the country has no right to exist within its internationally recognised borders so wrong but in putins and too many others heads, a fact. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:51 - Mar 30 with 919 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 15:06 - Mar 30 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
You just don’t get it do you?
He doesn’t have to kill them to target them.
He’s destroying their homes, their work places, their shops, hospitals. Everything they’ve worked for and built. Because of him they’ve got very little food, water, medicine. They’re no doubt scared shitless. They may still be alive but their lives as they knew them have gone.
Stop supporting this horror. |
You completely misunderstand, I am not supporting him or his actions at all.
I am trying to make you realise that you cannnot believe everything that you read and photos you see in the MSM and what is shown on the TV.
You are using words and phrases that you do not appear to understand the real meaning of, because they get banded about by the press.
Early on when they showed Ukranian troops preparing for the arrival of the 40 mile column to reach Kiev, where were they setting up their defensive positions?
When they showed them trapping and destroying the small column of armoured vehicles , where did it take place?
It was not out in the countryside, it was in the suburbs, so what do you think happens when those positions get fired upon?
Destruction all around that area is what happens.
If Ukrainian or Russian troops use any building for cover it is likely to be destroyed by either side, it is what happens in every modern ground war there has been. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:57 - Mar 30 with 918 views | Lorax |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:51 - Mar 30 by A_Fans_Dad |
You completely misunderstand, I am not supporting him or his actions at all.
I am trying to make you realise that you cannnot believe everything that you read and photos you see in the MSM and what is shown on the TV.
You are using words and phrases that you do not appear to understand the real meaning of, because they get banded about by the press.
Early on when they showed Ukranian troops preparing for the arrival of the 40 mile column to reach Kiev, where were they setting up their defensive positions?
When they showed them trapping and destroying the small column of armoured vehicles , where did it take place?
It was not out in the countryside, it was in the suburbs, so what do you think happens when those positions get fired upon?
Destruction all around that area is what happens.
If Ukrainian or Russian troops use any building for cover it is likely to be destroyed by either side, it is what happens in every modern ground war there has been. |
Ok then, what about the inner city, why have large parts of Mariupol been levelled?
The problem a lot of people have with you is while you won't believe the MSM you will believe websites without knowing who is behind them or those run by people who are clearly off their rocker OR have been proved to be untrustworthy.
Contro cited an RT journo and said he was independent, its Russian MSM if you like, would you trust an RT journo? | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:06 - Mar 30 with 913 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 14:52 - Mar 30 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
Ahh yes “casualties, not deaths”. That’s alright then. I’m sure those lying there with third degree burns over 98% of their skin, limbs ripped off and their eyes full of shrapnel feel really lucky to be alive. At least they can go to the office fancy dress party as Anakin Skywalker now.
40% of the buildings destroyed in a city of nearly half a million. Imagine your street but with pretty much every other house razed to the ground and nine out of ten showing damage. Then extrapolate that to an entire city. This is undoubtedly an indiscriminate and relentless assault. They are trying to flatten the city and they don’t care if silly little things like women and children get in the way. This is a scorched earth mentality. Just destroy everything until surrender.
You say you and your family has personal experience of being assaulted like this which resulted in your family home being destroyed and you having to grow up in a hut. Yet you are actively supporting and cheerleading for another aggressive army to do the same several decades later and create another generation of people having to suffer the horror of war, death, injury and destruction that afflicted your own family.
I simply cannot comprehend the mentality of people like you who will make excuses for the most evil people and regimes in history.
You genuinely make me sick. |
You have a very strange outlook on "debate".
I am not "supporting" or "cheerleading" anybody.
If I say Swansea had a bad game I am not supporting the opposition, if I say the opposition played better than us I am still not supporting the opposition.
I am saying it how it is.
I am trying to make you believers of everything you read that this is not unusual in a modern war.
I am not saying it is right as I did not say the invasion was right either.
What I am saying is that you and many others are using the wrong words to describe it.
Words that are being used by people trying to get other countries involved in this conflict by using lurid descriptions, especially Mr Zelezney. | | | |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:14 - Mar 30 with 911 views | Lorax |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:06 - Mar 30 by A_Fans_Dad |
You have a very strange outlook on "debate".
I am not "supporting" or "cheerleading" anybody.
If I say Swansea had a bad game I am not supporting the opposition, if I say the opposition played better than us I am still not supporting the opposition.
I am saying it how it is.
I am trying to make you believers of everything you read that this is not unusual in a modern war.
I am not saying it is right as I did not say the invasion was right either.
What I am saying is that you and many others are using the wrong words to describe it.
Words that are being used by people trying to get other countries involved in this conflict by using lurid descriptions, especially Mr Zelezney. |
Did you mean Zelenskyy?
Answer the question, why is the centre of Mariupol devastated when the Russian army is nowhere near it?
Why are other Ukrainian towns and cities also badly damaged in areas the Russkies haven't gotten anywhere near with ground forces? | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:17 - Mar 30 with 911 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:57 - Mar 30 by Lorax |
Ok then, what about the inner city, why have large parts of Mariupol been levelled?
The problem a lot of people have with you is while you won't believe the MSM you will believe websites without knowing who is behind them or those run by people who are clearly off their rocker OR have been proved to be untrustworthy.
Contro cited an RT journo and said he was independent, its Russian MSM if you like, would you trust an RT journo? |
Where do you think the Ukrainian Army and in particular the Azov Brigade set up their defences and as the Russians advanced where did they move to?
Have you watched the video of supposed Ukranian Mariupol escapees saying that it was Azov that destroyed a hospital and the Theatre with all the people under it?
How do you know what to believe? | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:36 - Mar 30 with 900 views | Scotia |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:17 - Mar 30 by A_Fans_Dad |
Where do you think the Ukrainian Army and in particular the Azov Brigade set up their defences and as the Russians advanced where did they move to?
Have you watched the video of supposed Ukranian Mariupol escapees saying that it was Azov that destroyed a hospital and the Theatre with all the people under it?
How do you know what to believe? |
Yes I've seen that film. I'm sure most of Russia has too.
The chances are that NATO intelligence know the plane that fired the missiles that destroyed both of those buildings. We're not likely to know the truth for many years if ever.
Why would the Azov destroy an entire city, or even help destroy a city? Especially a city that Russia surrounds and is denying humanitarian aid to? Particularly if that city that is crucial to linking Crimea with Donbas and therefore making Russian logistics far easier?
They'd be doing Russias job for them.
Why do you think Putin has declared he's concentrating on that area?
I'll put money on it being because he knows he can achieve his objectives there and nowhere else. Mariupol is of huge geographical and strategic importance to Russia and not Ukraine. That's why they want it and don't care if they have to raze it to the ground to get it. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 18:19 - Mar 30 with 891 views | Lorax |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:17 - Mar 30 by A_Fans_Dad |
Where do you think the Ukrainian Army and in particular the Azov Brigade set up their defences and as the Russians advanced where did they move to?
Have you watched the video of supposed Ukranian Mariupol escapees saying that it was Azov that destroyed a hospital and the Theatre with all the people under it?
How do you know what to believe? |
Right, what I do not believe is that the Ukrainian military is bombarding it's own city, is firing missiles at its own city. If you choose to believe that then crack on.
Why do some people have such a hard time believing Russia would do these things, they poisoned Litvinenko in Salisbury and left a threat to anybody who came into contact with the substance, Putin's government, their military have committed atrocities before. They supplied chemical weapons to Syria and have made threats to escalate attacks on Ukraine beyond the conventional.
The Ukraine military didn't set up their defence at the theatre that was attacked, nor were they dug in around the maternity hospital.
Haven't you previously argued that all the collateral damage was around the defensive areas out on the edges of the city? Yet now you seem to be saying the defences were in the middle of the city?
Otherwise, what are you saying? | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 18:42 - Mar 30 with 880 views | controversial_jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 15:42 - Mar 30 by Scotia |
Great. That's not what the question was.
Why does that make it ok for Putin to deliberately kill civillians? |
I didn't say it is, and it isn't | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 19:10 - Mar 30 with 868 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 18:19 - Mar 30 by Lorax |
Right, what I do not believe is that the Ukrainian military is bombarding it's own city, is firing missiles at its own city. If you choose to believe that then crack on.
Why do some people have such a hard time believing Russia would do these things, they poisoned Litvinenko in Salisbury and left a threat to anybody who came into contact with the substance, Putin's government, their military have committed atrocities before. They supplied chemical weapons to Syria and have made threats to escalate attacks on Ukraine beyond the conventional.
The Ukraine military didn't set up their defence at the theatre that was attacked, nor were they dug in around the maternity hospital.
Haven't you previously argued that all the collateral damage was around the defensive areas out on the edges of the city? Yet now you seem to be saying the defences were in the middle of the city?
Otherwise, what are you saying? |
"The Ukraine military didn't set up their defence at the theatre that was attacked, nor were they dug in around the maternity hospital."
You know this how? | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 19:24 - Mar 30 with 862 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 18:19 - Mar 30 by Lorax |
Right, what I do not believe is that the Ukrainian military is bombarding it's own city, is firing missiles at its own city. If you choose to believe that then crack on.
Why do some people have such a hard time believing Russia would do these things, they poisoned Litvinenko in Salisbury and left a threat to anybody who came into contact with the substance, Putin's government, their military have committed atrocities before. They supplied chemical weapons to Syria and have made threats to escalate attacks on Ukraine beyond the conventional.
The Ukraine military didn't set up their defence at the theatre that was attacked, nor were they dug in around the maternity hospital.
Haven't you previously argued that all the collateral damage was around the defensive areas out on the edges of the city? Yet now you seem to be saying the defences were in the middle of the city?
Otherwise, what are you saying? |
Haven't you previously argued that all the collateral damage was around the defensive areas out on the edges of the city?
Try reading what I wrote, I was talking about the 40 mile convoy, which as far as I know was not going to Mariupol. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 19:25 - Mar 30 with 861 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:57 - Mar 30 by Lorax |
Ok then, what about the inner city, why have large parts of Mariupol been levelled?
The problem a lot of people have with you is while you won't believe the MSM you will believe websites without knowing who is behind them or those run by people who are clearly off their rocker OR have been proved to be untrustworthy.
Contro cited an RT journo and said he was independent, its Russian MSM if you like, would you trust an RT journo? |
"Ok then, what about the inner city, why have large parts of Mariupol been levelled?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60806973?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=K
Do you believe this?
Why would tanks be fighting in the city centre if there were no troops there? | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 19:29 - Mar 30 with 860 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:57 - Mar 30 by Lorax |
Ok then, what about the inner city, why have large parts of Mariupol been levelled?
The problem a lot of people have with you is while you won't believe the MSM you will believe websites without knowing who is behind them or those run by people who are clearly off their rocker OR have been proved to be untrustworthy.
Contro cited an RT journo and said he was independent, its Russian MSM if you like, would you trust an RT journo? |
How about an American view?
https://sonar21.com/dreizin-report-poland-prepares-to-intervene-ukraine-slides-i | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 20:10 - Mar 30 with 839 views | Scotia |
"Why do some people have such a hard time believing Russia would do these things"
Because they can't think for themselves, despite them thinking that's exactly what they are doing by not believing MSM. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 23:18 - Mar 30 with 814 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 20:10 - Mar 30 by Scotia |
"Why do some people have such a hard time believing Russia would do these things"
Because they can't think for themselves, despite them thinking that's exactly what they are doing by not believing MSM. |
Right on.
Here is MSM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/28/ukraine-kyiv-russia-civilians/
Ukraine military try to justify deliberately placing heavy weapons in civilian areas. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 07:26 - Mar 31 with 780 views | Scotia |
But that's completely different isn't it.
So will preventing humanitarian aid going in to Mariupol and evacuation of civilians from Mariupol do anything to prevent heavy weapons being stored there? Will starving and dehydrating civilians mean weapons don't work?
Is there any evidence that there are such weapons are stored all over Mariupol but none in Kyiv or Lyiv? To the point that Mariupol has been razed to the ground but Kyiv or Lyiv left relatively untouched.
Lyiv is a large city with lots of hiding places for weapons coming over the border from NATO which is close by. Surely this should be a key target, if Russia is trying to destroy arms hiding places?
If Kyiv and Lyiv are so lightly armed why are the Russians not attempting to take these cities?
It doesn't stack up. Think for yourself and not blindly believing alternative sources purely because they are telling a different story. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 07:27 - Mar 31 with 779 views | felixstowe_jack |
Why on earth cannot Ukraine place weapons in the cities that the Russians are attacking.
It is quite perverse to blame the Ukrainians for defending their country from invading Russians forces. The only only people to blame for deliberately targeting and killing civilians are the Russians. | |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 09:24 - Mar 31 with 755 views | Lorax |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 19:10 - Mar 30 by A_Fans_Dad |
"The Ukraine military didn't set up their defence at the theatre that was attacked, nor were they dug in around the maternity hospital."
You know this how? |
I have seen pictures and video from the theatre, there is no sign of any large scale miltary presence, no typical defensive structures, barriers, trenches, tank traps etc.
The next thing would be, why would they put a full scale defensive presence around a theatre when there are no Russian troops anywhere near it? What is the strategic value of this theatre?
The full scale defence will be around the outside of the city and probably then they have a plan of retreat with other defensive boundaries drawn up for if they have to retreat into the city.
Why would they put a large scale military defence around a hospital when the bombardment of a hospital is a war crime? That Russia is ignoring the rules and committing war crimes was something we all hoped wouldn't happen, but still, its happening. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 10:07 - Mar 31 with 742 views | controversial_jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 09:24 - Mar 31 by Lorax |
I have seen pictures and video from the theatre, there is no sign of any large scale miltary presence, no typical defensive structures, barriers, trenches, tank traps etc.
The next thing would be, why would they put a full scale defensive presence around a theatre when there are no Russian troops anywhere near it? What is the strategic value of this theatre?
The full scale defence will be around the outside of the city and probably then they have a plan of retreat with other defensive boundaries drawn up for if they have to retreat into the city.
Why would they put a large scale military defence around a hospital when the bombardment of a hospital is a war crime? That Russia is ignoring the rules and committing war crimes was something we all hoped wouldn't happen, but still, its happening. |
Would it be because the hospital was deserted and had no patients?
Defense wouldn't necessary be all around the perimeter they would have defense in depth
Russia doesn't recognize war crimes, neither does the US as it hasn't signed yup to the International courts. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 10:20 - Mar 31 with 735 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 10:07 - Mar 31 by controversial_jack |
Would it be because the hospital was deserted and had no patients?
Defense wouldn't necessary be all around the perimeter they would have defense in depth
Russia doesn't recognize war crimes, neither does the US as it hasn't signed yup to the International courts. |
They have signed up the the UN and Geneva Conventions though so they must recognise war crimes.
They must recognise war crimes because they’ve been accusing each other of them for years. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 10:24 - Mar 31 with 734 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 10:07 - Mar 31 by controversial_jack |
Would it be because the hospital was deserted and had no patients?
Defense wouldn't necessary be all around the perimeter they would have defense in depth
Russia doesn't recognize war crimes, neither does the US as it hasn't signed yup to the International courts. |
Strange how both those countries prosecuted German War criminals at the Nurembugh trials after WW2. They also jointly guarded convicted German War criminals at the Spandau Prison in West Berlin .
The Americans recognise War Crines and crimes against humanity in its Military courts so it is INCORRECT to say the US does not recognise War crimes.
I think you are confusing the fact that the US has not signed up to the International Criminals Court set up by the statute of Rome.
Russia has not signed up to the ICC.
Both Russia and USA have signed the Geneva convention. | |
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