| Russia invade Ukraine 14:17 - Dec 23 with 153346 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
Discuss.
Also why is Putin always described in the media as this rugged strongman? He’s barely five foot tall with his high heels on.
But that’s another debate.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |  |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 18:15 - Mar 29 with 962 views | Boundy |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:28 - Mar 29 by Lorax |
Not sure about that either. isn't it the case that Churchill used a German mistake to bomb German cities. A few German bombers hit the wrong target didn't they?
Anyway, it's off at a tangent. |
Not sure about a few bombers hitting the wrong target, 57 consecutive nights of targeting residential areas is more than a big mistake . And prior to that Guernica. | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 18:35 - Mar 29 with 946 views | Lorax |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:37 - Mar 29 by felixstowe_jack |
Not sure about that either you will find the Germans actually bombed UK Cities in WW1 using Zeppelins for which there was not defence at the time until incendiary bullets were used to which the hydrogen filled Zeppelins were very vulnerable too.
Germany also used massed bombing in the Spanish civil war as well as the WW2 as Rotterdam in May 1940 leading to the surrender of the Netherlands .
Churchill did indeed allow a very small raid on Berlin following a bombing on a UK city.
Anyway it is off at a tangent. |
Hold up now, you said Germany bombed British cities first in WW2, you can't change to another war and then another country to try and say your first post was right!
Hitler's Luftwaffe wasn't supposed to bomb London but on 24th August 1940 several German bombers dropped their load on the East end of London while looking for another target, that's how the story apparently goes, it was a mistake in the dark. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 18:47 - Mar 29 with 937 views | controversial_jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:35 - Mar 29 by Lorax |
The violent events you refer to, are they the ones in Luhansk and Donetsk? They were part of the reason for the people wanting Yanukovych out but it is my belief they weren't part of the coup, they were part of the Russian backed attempt to seize part of Ukraine.
It was those events that led to people protesting in the streets, those protestors were then shot at on Yanukovychs' orders.
Aren't you changing the timeline around to suit your argument?
The trouble you are referring to started in 2014 and it was the following year that Yanukovych was deposed.
Moscow backed the separatists in Luhansk and Donestk, Yanukovych went back on a deal with the EU and turned to Moscow instead and became a staunch Putin supporter and that's why the trouble started, isn't it? |
It's a confused mess and difficult to grasp the timelines. But the crux of the matter was, Outside agitation , by you know who. They have attempted regime changes in many countries since the early 50s. some have worked some haven't. They tried a few times with Cuba and failed. The latest was Venezuela, when they tried to dress it up as being a working class uprising against Chavez, when it reality, it was the middle classes and the big corporations. Chavez had the backing of the working classes and the army, so it failed. We do not have to look far to see the hand of the US behind many uprising, revolts, coups or whatever we wish to call them. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 19:02 - Mar 29 with 930 views | majorraglan |
In terms of Yanukovych, the protests started after he ignored a democratic decision made in parliament to open negotiations with the EU and pursued an agreement with Putin and Russia. Yanukovych’s was accused by an international organisation of being a top example of corruption. The protesters used violence as did Yanukovych’s police and internal agencies, who used it first I don’t know. Given the past state of affairs in Eastern Europe, Belarus, Hungary, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Russia I’m happy to subscribe to the view there were issues on both sides, but that Yanukovych was the main mover. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 19:09 - Mar 29 with 926 views | Lorax |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 18:47 - Mar 29 by controversial_jack |
It's a confused mess and difficult to grasp the timelines. But the crux of the matter was, Outside agitation , by you know who. They have attempted regime changes in many countries since the early 50s. some have worked some haven't. They tried a few times with Cuba and failed. The latest was Venezuela, when they tried to dress it up as being a working class uprising against Chavez, when it reality, it was the middle classes and the big corporations. Chavez had the backing of the working classes and the army, so it failed. We do not have to look far to see the hand of the US behind many uprising, revolts, coups or whatever we wish to call them. |
It's not at all difficult to grasp the timelines, it's all there. You don't want to grasp the timeline because it proves you wrong.
All you want to do is blame the USA for this and seemingly, you want to absolve Putin of any guilt and claim that Yanukovych was illegally removed.
The Americans try to get regime change by covert means, Putin has tried it by an invasion, a declaration of war, except that's not what he told his own people. The USA isn't the only country that tries to bring about regime change, that doesn't absolve Putin of blame, it doesn't make Zelenskyy wrong. Still though, regardless of the whataboutery, this invasion, what Putin has done, it's wrong. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 19:17 - Mar 29 with 914 views | felixstowe_jack |
Good to see four EU continues are going to expel 40 Russian spies, diplomats, from their embassies. They have give them 2 weeks to leave.
Guess the Russians will now expel 40 EU spies in retaliation. | |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 19:27 - Mar 29 with 904 views | Scotia |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 14:23 - Mar 29 by controversial_jack |
There's no element of truth at all, it's well understood the USA backed it
Civilians are always the casualties in war, this has basically happened since ww1 Collateral damage is the euphemism. We did it in WW2 deliberately and consistently bombing German cities. The Yanks bombed Tokyo, They bombed Hanoi during Vietnam, the list is endless. It's wrong of course, but it's not new |
As did other western countries. Morally and politically. The Russians gave the government of Ukraine at the time arms to kill those opposing them.
Civilians are tragically killed in war, but haven't been deliberately targeted since 1945.
That is the difference. Putin is deliberately targeting civilians in Ukraine today, it is his deliberate tactic.
How you can justify that based on something the USA has done previously is completely beyond me. | | | |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 08:41 - Mar 30 with 849 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 19:27 - Mar 29 by Scotia |
As did other western countries. Morally and politically. The Russians gave the government of Ukraine at the time arms to kill those opposing them.
Civilians are tragically killed in war, but haven't been deliberately targeted since 1945.
That is the difference. Putin is deliberately targeting civilians in Ukraine today, it is his deliberate tactic.
How you can justify that based on something the USA has done previously is completely beyond me. |
Correct it isca war crime to target civilians and it is beyond doubt that the Russian are deliberately doing it in Ukraine.
Unfortunately there are 1 or 2 posters on this site who support and try to justify the war crimes Putin and the Russian army are committing. | |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 09:12 - Mar 30 with 835 views | controversial_jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 19:09 - Mar 29 by Lorax |
It's not at all difficult to grasp the timelines, it's all there. You don't want to grasp the timeline because it proves you wrong.
All you want to do is blame the USA for this and seemingly, you want to absolve Putin of any guilt and claim that Yanukovych was illegally removed.
The Americans try to get regime change by covert means, Putin has tried it by an invasion, a declaration of war, except that's not what he told his own people. The USA isn't the only country that tries to bring about regime change, that doesn't absolve Putin of blame, it doesn't make Zelenskyy wrong. Still though, regardless of the whataboutery, this invasion, what Putin has done, it's wrong. |
Iraq , Afghanistan, Syria, Panama, etc were covert operations? You really need to study your history | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 09:44 - Mar 30 with 829 views | majorraglan |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 09:12 - Mar 30 by controversial_jack |
Iraq , Afghanistan, Syria, Panama, etc were covert operations? You really need to study your history |
The Russians are just as bad, what’s happening in the Ukraine now mirrored what happened in Georgia in 2008, invades country leaning toward the West, installs a government sympathetic to Moscow, puts power in the hands of a select few. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 10:41 - Mar 30 with 820 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 09:12 - Mar 30 by controversial_jack |
Iraq , Afghanistan, Syria, Panama, etc were covert operations? You really need to study your history |
You are still supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine then? | |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 10:59 - Mar 30 with 802 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 19:27 - Mar 29 by Scotia |
As did other western countries. Morally and politically. The Russians gave the government of Ukraine at the time arms to kill those opposing them.
Civilians are tragically killed in war, but haven't been deliberately targeted since 1945.
That is the difference. Putin is deliberately targeting civilians in Ukraine today, it is his deliberate tactic.
How you can justify that based on something the USA has done previously is completely beyond me. |
"That is the difference. Putin is deliberately targeting civilians in Ukraine today, it is his deliberate tactic."
How many civilians have been killed by this deliberate tactic, it must run in to the thousands right, more than it did during the Iraq Shock & Awe attacks? [Post edited 30 Mar 2022 11:15]
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 11:06 - Mar 30 with 801 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 08:41 - Mar 30 by felixstowe_jack |
Correct it isca war crime to target civilians and it is beyond doubt that the Russian are deliberately doing it in Ukraine.
Unfortunately there are 1 or 2 posters on this site who support and try to justify the war crimes Putin and the Russian army are committing. |
War crimes are meaningless. Putin can do whatever the hell he likes. He can commit atrocities with impunity and just deny it, label it western propaganda and carry on and most of his population will believe him. He’s not going to extradite himself to The Hague. The UN can’t do anything because he’s got a permanent veto. The only way he’d face trial is if you physically went into the Kremlin and dragged him out of there and that’s not going to happen.
This is the issue with this RUBIS world we have created. The point I was making in the other thread about treaties and agreements. They mean diddly squat if one or more parties have absolutely no intention of following the rules. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 11:25 - Mar 30 with 791 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 10:59 - Mar 30 by A_Fans_Dad |
"That is the difference. Putin is deliberately targeting civilians in Ukraine today, it is his deliberate tactic."
How many civilians have been killed by this deliberate tactic, it must run in to the thousands right, more than it did during the Iraq Shock & Awe attacks? [Post edited 30 Mar 2022 11:15]
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The UN estimated a few days ago 3000 civilian casualties. Obviously the number is probably a lot higher than that. The true picture will become clear when all the rubble is cleared and the corpses can be recovered. In Mariupol alone 90% of buildings have been damaged, 40% completely destroyed. You don’t damage 90% of buildings when going after legitimate military targets. This is a scorched Earth tactic. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 11:40 - Mar 30 with 789 views | controversial_jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 10:41 - Mar 30 by felixstowe_jack |
You are still supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine then? |
No! Trying to look at it in an unbiased way and trying to determine facts from propaganda is not supporting anything. Weren't you taught this at school or wherever you had your education? I was. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 12:24 - Mar 30 with 774 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 11:25 - Mar 30 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
The UN estimated a few days ago 3000 civilian casualties. Obviously the number is probably a lot higher than that. The true picture will become clear when all the rubble is cleared and the corpses can be recovered. In Mariupol alone 90% of buildings have been damaged, 40% completely destroyed. You don’t damage 90% of buildings when going after legitimate military targets. This is a scorched Earth tactic. |
The Americans were not targeting civilians but managed to kill over 6000 civilians in 21 days.
The UN estimates are "casualties", not deaths.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/03/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-25-march-
If you think what is happening in Ukraine is "scorched earth" you are totally brainwashed by western propaganda.
What do they class as "damaged", blast debris travels a long way, as does the blast wave.
My family has personal experience of such destruction during WW2, they lost 2 houses with roofs, windows, doors and a wall gone.
Neither of them from direct hits by the bombs which casued it.
Which is why I grew up in a Nissen Hut until I was 7.
What do you class as a legitimate target?
A high rise block of flats with rockets on the roof?
A block of flats with snipers and RPG carrying soldiers?
A mall with rocket launchers in the base?
The Palistinians have been using those tactics to make Israel look bad for decades and you think the Uktainians are not above doing the same? | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 12:33 - Mar 30 with 761 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 12:24 - Mar 30 by A_Fans_Dad |
The Americans were not targeting civilians but managed to kill over 6000 civilians in 21 days.
The UN estimates are "casualties", not deaths.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/03/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-25-march-
If you think what is happening in Ukraine is "scorched earth" you are totally brainwashed by western propaganda.
What do they class as "damaged", blast debris travels a long way, as does the blast wave.
My family has personal experience of such destruction during WW2, they lost 2 houses with roofs, windows, doors and a wall gone.
Neither of them from direct hits by the bombs which casued it.
Which is why I grew up in a Nissen Hut until I was 7.
What do you class as a legitimate target?
A high rise block of flats with rockets on the roof?
A block of flats with snipers and RPG carrying soldiers?
A mall with rocket launchers in the base?
The Palistinians have been using those tactics to make Israel look bad for decades and you think the Uktainians are not above doing the same? |
They’re definitely hiding heavy weaponry in civilian areas. One of the hospitals in Mariopol had one in the car park close up to the building. |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 12:36 - Mar 30 with 762 views | Scotia |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 10:59 - Mar 30 by A_Fans_Dad |
"That is the difference. Putin is deliberately targeting civilians in Ukraine today, it is his deliberate tactic."
How many civilians have been killed by this deliberate tactic, it must run in to the thousands right, more than it did during the Iraq Shock & Awe attacks? [Post edited 30 Mar 2022 11:15]
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We don't really know do we? How many people have been put in to mass graves at at least two sites in Mariupol? How many women and children will die because the hospital they need has been destroyed? How many people will die due to dehydration and malnutrition?
We do know that there were civilian casualties in both, that is tragic in all cases. The crucial difference is Putin is deliberately killing and injuring them. They are the targets. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 12:40 - Mar 30 with 758 views | controversial_jack |
Hundreds of thousands of civilians died in Iraq alone. Die they die by accident? | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 12:41 - Mar 30 with 757 views | Scotia |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 11:40 - Mar 30 by controversial_jack |
No! Trying to look at it in an unbiased way and trying to determine facts from propaganda is not supporting anything. Weren't you taught this at school or wherever you had your education? I was. |
That isn't what you are doing though. You're swallowing propaganda hook, line and sinker. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 13:51 - Mar 30 with 738 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 12:36 - Mar 30 by Scotia |
We don't really know do we? How many people have been put in to mass graves at at least two sites in Mariupol? How many women and children will die because the hospital they need has been destroyed? How many people will die due to dehydration and malnutrition?
We do know that there were civilian casualties in both, that is tragic in all cases. The crucial difference is Putin is deliberately killing and injuring them. They are the targets. |
Well we now have some truth, we don't know.
Then we have the propaganda, Putin is deliberately targeting civilians.
If this is true all I can say is he is doing a really terrible job of it, if the Yanks can kill over 6000 in 3 weeks while not targeting civilains, Putin should be able to do more by deliberately targeting them. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 14:52 - Mar 30 with 725 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 12:24 - Mar 30 by A_Fans_Dad |
The Americans were not targeting civilians but managed to kill over 6000 civilians in 21 days.
The UN estimates are "casualties", not deaths.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2022/03/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-25-march-
If you think what is happening in Ukraine is "scorched earth" you are totally brainwashed by western propaganda.
What do they class as "damaged", blast debris travels a long way, as does the blast wave.
My family has personal experience of such destruction during WW2, they lost 2 houses with roofs, windows, doors and a wall gone.
Neither of them from direct hits by the bombs which casued it.
Which is why I grew up in a Nissen Hut until I was 7.
What do you class as a legitimate target?
A high rise block of flats with rockets on the roof?
A block of flats with snipers and RPG carrying soldiers?
A mall with rocket launchers in the base?
The Palistinians have been using those tactics to make Israel look bad for decades and you think the Uktainians are not above doing the same? |
Ahh yes “casualties, not deaths”. That’s alright then. I’m sure those lying there with third degree burns over 98% of their skin, limbs ripped off and their eyes full of shrapnel feel really lucky to be alive. At least they can go to the office fancy dress party as Anakin Skywalker now.
40% of the buildings destroyed in a city of nearly half a million. Imagine your street but with pretty much every other house razed to the ground and nine out of ten showing damage. Then extrapolate that to an entire city. This is undoubtedly an indiscriminate and relentless assault. They are trying to flatten the city and they don’t care if silly little things like women and children get in the way. This is a scorched earth mentality. Just destroy everything until surrender.
You say you and your family has personal experience of being assaulted like this which resulted in your family home being destroyed and you having to grow up in a hut. Yet you are actively supporting and cheerleading for another aggressive army to do the same several decades later and create another generation of people having to suffer the horror of war, death, injury and destruction that afflicted your own family.
I simply cannot comprehend the mentality of people like you who will make excuses for the most evil people and regimes in history.
You genuinely make me sick. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 14:57 - Mar 30 with 722 views | Scotia |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 13:51 - Mar 30 by A_Fans_Dad |
Well we now have some truth, we don't know.
Then we have the propaganda, Putin is deliberately targeting civilians.
If this is true all I can say is he is doing a really terrible job of it, if the Yanks can kill over 6000 in 3 weeks while not targeting civilains, Putin should be able to do more by deliberately targeting them. |
We don't know that the Yanks killed 6000 during shock and awe - apparently that's one estimate by the anti war think tank "the Oxford research group". Others put the number at far fewer. The 6000 is as much propaganda as anything else, you elieve it becasue you want to. We don't know the true number.
It's not propaganda that Putin is targetting civilians, it's clear he is. The entire civilian population of Mariupol are being targeted by siege and bombardment, amongest other places. [Post edited 30 Mar 2022 15:00]
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 15:06 - Mar 30 with 720 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 13:51 - Mar 30 by A_Fans_Dad |
Well we now have some truth, we don't know.
Then we have the propaganda, Putin is deliberately targeting civilians.
If this is true all I can say is he is doing a really terrible job of it, if the Yanks can kill over 6000 in 3 weeks while not targeting civilains, Putin should be able to do more by deliberately targeting them. |
You just don’t get it do you?
He doesn’t have to kill them to target them.
He’s destroying their homes, their work places, their shops, hospitals. Everything they’ve worked for and built. Because of him they’ve got very little food, water, medicine. They’re no doubt scared shitless. They may still be alive but their lives as they knew them have gone.
Stop supporting this horror. | | | |
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