| Why Vegans are wrong 11:33 - Jan 28 with 2751 views | Catullus |
One of the biggest arguments I hear Vegans make is eating meat is cruelty to the animals but consider this, what if plants are intelligent and feel distress? Well wake up folks because they are and they do.
Just watch the Green planet, Trees communicate and some are called "Mother trees" and its been shown they recognise their offspring and send food to them,
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+wood+wide+web+video&view=detail&
Many people like the smell of cut grass but that smell is actually a warning that it's under attack, a distress call if you will,
https://www.scienceabc.com/nature/what-causes-the-fresh-cut-grass-smell.html#:~:
So the plants all around us communicate, they give warnings of attack and they help their 'chldren' which proves a level of intelligence so eating only plant based food can be seen as cruel to.
We are all part of the food chain, like it or not. |  |
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 12:17 - Jan 28 with 1484 views | felixstowe_jack |
Also insecticides and pesticides are sprayed onto crops all the time killing insects .
Vast areas of rain forests are cleared to grow crops. Then the food products are shipped halfway across the world.
No easy answer but it makes sense to to use our grassland to feed animals. | |
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 12:24 - Jan 28 with 1472 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
Veganism is another of these first world issues that a lot of the world scratches their head at. In many of these places being given a basket of eggs and a bottle of milk would feel like winning the lottery. It’s very easy to be able to pick and choose what is right or wrong to eat when you have a full belly every day. | | | |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 12:25 - Jan 28 with 1468 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
I have noticed an increase in the availability of highly processed vegan food, this looks like moving the issue of processed food sideways. Cutting down on meat in favour of growing crops will reduce the use of resources, but fertilizers, pesticides and monocultures all pose a significant risk. Organic mixed farming can be managed on a carbon neutral basis and of course there is not much you can grow up a mountain but sheep and goats. [Post edited 28 Jan 2022 12:27]
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 12:25 - Jan 28 with 1466 views | Catullus |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 12:17 - Jan 28 by felixstowe_jack |
Also insecticides and pesticides are sprayed onto crops all the time killing insects .
Vast areas of rain forests are cleared to grow crops. Then the food products are shipped halfway across the world.
No easy answer but it makes sense to to use our grassland to feed animals. |
We should be more concerned with sustainable, eco friendly farming in my opinion. Pesticide and insecticide wash off is causing massive damage to the seas. We are creating and enlarging dead zones in our seas, it's a global disaster that is coming and will one day hit hard and the whole world will feel it,
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 12:30 - Jan 28 with 1453 views | Dr_Parnassus |
They don’t have a central nervous system or nociceptors, meaning they can’t feel pain. Plants have chemical reactions and react to stimulants. It’s not the same thing.
The main argument for veganism is that eating meat is needless in most parts of the world, so needlessly inflicting pain on sentient beings for pleasure is not really something people should willingly be doing.
You wouldn’t kick a dog for pleasure so shouldn’t be slitting the throat of an animal for pleasure either.
You then move on to the health side and the environmental side. But I don’t think saying plants feel pain is a very good retort because they don’t.
I’m not one to preach though, people can do what they like if they can live with their own choices, then that’s on them. |  |
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 12:54 - Jan 28 with 1423 views | Catullus |
Pleasure? I eat food to survive, I take no pleasure in killing animals. If I saw a farmer mistreating his animals I would ring the RSPCA.
Anybody who tortures or kills animals for pleasure is a sick person who needs locking up. All farmed animals should be killed as painlessly as is possible.
Plants don't feel pain you say,
https://www.lifeadvancer.com/plants-feel-pain-research-emotions/#:~:text=Scienti
If somebody has congenital analgesia does that mean we can treat the inhumanely? Obviously no but if a thing is considered to be alive and feels distress, cares for its offspring, feels pain and communicates with others do we have the right to cause it distress, to cut it up and eat it? | |
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 13:50 - Jan 28 with 1395 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 12:54 - Jan 28 by Catullus |
Pleasure? I eat food to survive, I take no pleasure in killing animals. If I saw a farmer mistreating his animals I would ring the RSPCA.
Anybody who tortures or kills animals for pleasure is a sick person who needs locking up. All farmed animals should be killed as painlessly as is possible.
Plants don't feel pain you say,
https://www.lifeadvancer.com/plants-feel-pain-research-emotions/#:~:text=Scienti
If somebody has congenital analgesia does that mean we can treat the inhumanely? Obviously no but if a thing is considered to be alive and feels distress, cares for its offspring, feels pain and communicates with others do we have the right to cause it distress, to cut it up and eat it? |
Yep taste, it’s sensory pleasure.
You don’t need to eat animals to survive. If I and countless other people survive without harming animals then I am sure you can do it too.
You wouldn’t because you don’t want to. You don’t want to because you like the taste. That’s pleasure not necessity and no different to inflicting pain on animals for sensory pleasure in other aspects.
Yes I do say plants don’t feel pain, the research on that is extensive. They have no brain and no central nervous system. Hence why you wouldn’t stop someone picking a flower but would stop someone slicing a dogs throat… am I right? | |
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 13:52 - Jan 28 with 1389 views | Professor |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 12:25 - Jan 28 by JACKMANANDBOY |
I have noticed an increase in the availability of highly processed vegan food, this looks like moving the issue of processed food sideways. Cutting down on meat in favour of growing crops will reduce the use of resources, but fertilizers, pesticides and monocultures all pose a significant risk. Organic mixed farming can be managed on a carbon neutral basis and of course there is not much you can grow up a mountain but sheep and goats. [Post edited 28 Jan 2022 12:27]
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Spot on. Though does not have to be organic to be sustainable. We are good at growing grass in the U.K. so upland farming of sheep and traditional beef breeds like the Welsh Black is amongst the most sustainable sources of animal protein. Monogastric animal production can use other protein sources than soya, which is main issue.
One transatlantic flight a year is a greater environmental impact than meat consumption. The figures used are grossly wrong as based on US style beef production.
We should eat less but better meat. And ideally eat more seasonal and local produce | | | |
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 13:59 - Jan 28 with 1370 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 13:52 - Jan 28 by Professor |
Spot on. Though does not have to be organic to be sustainable. We are good at growing grass in the U.K. so upland farming of sheep and traditional beef breeds like the Welsh Black is amongst the most sustainable sources of animal protein. Monogastric animal production can use other protein sources than soya, which is main issue.
One transatlantic flight a year is a greater environmental impact than meat consumption. The figures used are grossly wrong as based on US style beef production.
We should eat less but better meat. And ideally eat more seasonal and local produce |
Beef production is horrendous for the environment.
1kg of cow flesh produces 60kg of greenhouse gasses and 18% of the human contributions to greenhouse gasses. Greater than the aviation industry and automotive industry.
The inefficiency between resources used to develop the flesh is extremely inefficient needing 50,000 litres of water to produce 1 kilo of cow flesh. It takes about 1000 litres to produce the same weight of rice for example.
Cattle farming also accounts for 41% of global deforestation and 80% of Amazonian deforestation. | |
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 14:08 - Jan 28 with 1364 views | Dr_Parnassus |
But back to the thread and subject in question.
Anyone in the Western World that thinks they aren’t partaking in the killing of animals for pleasure are completely wrong.
There are very few places on earth now where life relies on animal consumption. The Maasai is one that springs to mind and their life expectancy is around 40 years old, with the lowest life expectancy of any group of people on the planet. | |
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 14:46 - Jan 28 with 1331 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 13:52 - Jan 28 by Professor |
Spot on. Though does not have to be organic to be sustainable. We are good at growing grass in the U.K. so upland farming of sheep and traditional beef breeds like the Welsh Black is amongst the most sustainable sources of animal protein. Monogastric animal production can use other protein sources than soya, which is main issue.
One transatlantic flight a year is a greater environmental impact than meat consumption. The figures used are grossly wrong as based on US style beef production.
We should eat less but better meat. And ideally eat more seasonal and local produce |
Avoiding artificial fertilizers and pesticides is a benefit. I'm rather tired of the one dimensional approach to environmental issues. Ecosystems are as the name suggests systems, introducing chemicals, plastics or moving toward monocultures are all to be avoided. Similarly reducing diversity is a significant irreversible problem.
As you say we have water in Wales and New Zealand for example and lots of upland that does not lend itself to arable farming that as supports livestock quite naturally. As you say the underlying assumptions are based on US systems, some of the climate change assumptions need refreshing now as well. | |
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 14:53 - Jan 28 with 1329 views | Professor |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 13:59 - Jan 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
Beef production is horrendous for the environment.
1kg of cow flesh produces 60kg of greenhouse gasses and 18% of the human contributions to greenhouse gasses. Greater than the aviation industry and automotive industry.
The inefficiency between resources used to develop the flesh is extremely inefficient needing 50,000 litres of water to produce 1 kilo of cow flesh. It takes about 1000 litres to produce the same weight of rice for example.
Cattle farming also accounts for 41% of global deforestation and 80% of Amazonian deforestation. |
If produced in a US style feedlot system. If produced using pasture fed beef cattle which are smaller but hardy breeds for uplands (Angus, Welsh Black, Dexter) which are lower yielding but high welfare and higher education quality the figures ( Which are wrong anyway) are very different | | | |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 14:58 - Jan 28 with 1323 views | Professor |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 14:46 - Jan 28 by JACKMANANDBOY |
Avoiding artificial fertilizers and pesticides is a benefit. I'm rather tired of the one dimensional approach to environmental issues. Ecosystems are as the name suggests systems, introducing chemicals, plastics or moving toward monocultures are all to be avoided. Similarly reducing diversity is a significant irreversible problem.
As you say we have water in Wales and New Zealand for example and lots of upland that does not lend itself to arable farming that as supports livestock quite naturally. As you say the underlying assumptions are based on US systems, some of the climate change assumptions need refreshing now as well. |
In general, yes
But there are exceptions which the soil society need to look at in terms of organic certification but more around treatment.
Again, the ecosystem point and the huge danger of monoculture are spot on. The highly processed nature of vegan food being marketed in the U.K. is also a massive issue. Highly amused no ione jumps on this in terms of the companies involved and the practices which make pharma look like pussy cats | | | |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 15:06 - Jan 28 with 1311 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 13:50 - Jan 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
Yep taste, it’s sensory pleasure.
You don’t need to eat animals to survive. If I and countless other people survive without harming animals then I am sure you can do it too.
You wouldn’t because you don’t want to. You don’t want to because you like the taste. That’s pleasure not necessity and no different to inflicting pain on animals for sensory pleasure in other aspects.
Yes I do say plants don’t feel pain, the research on that is extensive. They have no brain and no central nervous system. Hence why you wouldn’t stop someone picking a flower but would stop someone slicing a dogs throat… am I right? |
I have 4 hens. They leave eggs lying around. I take the eggs and cook them in a pan and eat them on some lightly buttered toast (is yeast vegan?). How is that harming the hens? Yet vegans would disapprove of this. | | | |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 15:11 - Jan 28 with 1295 views | builthjack |
Each to their own. There are more Vegans every day, especially amongst the younger crowd.
The McPlant is nice. |  |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 15:15 - Jan 28 with 1289 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
If I had 4 eggs, a vegan gave me 3 eggs and I made an omelette using two eggs. How many eggs would I have? | |
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 15:31 - Jan 28 with 1277 views | builthjack |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 15:15 - Jan 28 by JACKMANANDBOY |
If I had 4 eggs, a vegan gave me 3 eggs and I made an omelette using two eggs. How many eggs would I have? |
17 | |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 15:33 - Jan 28 with 1276 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 15:31 - Jan 28 by builthjack |
17 |
Close. | |
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 15:36 - Jan 28 with 1275 views | A_Fans_Dad |
We are Omnivores. | | | |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 15:36 - Jan 28 with 1276 views | Professor |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 15:11 - Jan 28 by builthjack |
Each to their own. There are more Vegans every day, especially amongst the younger crowd.
The McPlant is nice. |
Meat sales are not falling though. Look through the trend and the reality is veganiism is still a tiny proportion of people. Still will take grass fed Welsh beef over that. As JM &B says then McPlant is highly professed and far from natural | | | |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 16:02 - Jan 28 with 1262 views | builthjack |
Looking like there will be 3 million vegans by the end of the year.
A big market.
Some very nice food, but I would struggle to give up meat. | |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| Why Vegans are wrong on 16:22 - Jan 28 with 1253 views | ARQS |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 14:08 - Jan 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
But back to the thread and subject in question.
Anyone in the Western World that thinks they aren’t partaking in the killing of animals for pleasure are completely wrong.
There are very few places on earth now where life relies on animal consumption. The Maasai is one that springs to mind and their life expectancy is around 40 years old, with the lowest life expectancy of any group of people on the planet. |
I eat meat and enjoy it.
I have also started eating a lot more plant based foods and in the main, these are very nice. I have substituted some things completely.
However, I try and not think too much about the impact that my decision to eat meat has on the animals. I feel very hypocritical as a pet owner, who loves cats and dogs as if they're one of the family with their little personalities yet am quite prepared for an equally sentient being to be killed so I can have a tasty meal.
I think in 20 years time, the kids of today will look at our meat consumption and be disgusted. | | | |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 16:30 - Jan 28 with 1240 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 16:22 - Jan 28 by ARQS |
I eat meat and enjoy it.
I have also started eating a lot more plant based foods and in the main, these are very nice. I have substituted some things completely.
However, I try and not think too much about the impact that my decision to eat meat has on the animals. I feel very hypocritical as a pet owner, who loves cats and dogs as if they're one of the family with their little personalities yet am quite prepared for an equally sentient being to be killed so I can have a tasty meal.
I think in 20 years time, the kids of today will look at our meat consumption and be disgusted. |
"I think in 20 years time, the kids of today will look at our meat consumption and be disgusted."
While they suffer with all sorts of bodily deficiencies. | | | |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 16:45 - Jan 28 with 1232 views | Professor |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 16:30 - Jan 28 by A_Fans_Dad |
"I think in 20 years time, the kids of today will look at our meat consumption and be disgusted."
While they suffer with all sorts of bodily deficiencies. |
You are correct in that we, as monogastric animals, are omnivores as are pigs, as are chicken and importantly as are chimpanzee and bonobos. We are evolved to eat almost everything and cannot synthesise all the nutrients we need from a purely plant-based diet. A vegetarian who consumes dairy and eggs is probably fine, but the requirements for additional nutrients in vegan diet show it is far from a natural 'healthy' diet without the need for significant micronutrient supplementation.
The big issue is the FAO/UN report on GHG emissions is wrong. Absolutely wrong yet is still used as the basis of every article on veganism. The reality is transport is probably three times greater in climate impact. Regardless of a your or my wider view on climate, it's a complete fallacy. Production can be changed to lower GHG-I have a few friends working on methane reduction in ruminants via gut microbiome modulation.
You are also correct in recent comments on highly processed foods which seem to form a cornerstone of 'western' vegan diets. I would fully support eating less meat, eating better meat and dairy and increasing plant consumption. But the idea veganism fight climate change is idiocy. Plenty of jackfruit grown on the Gower?]
See we can agree. Sometimes.
Have a good weekend. | | | |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 17:32 - Jan 28 with 1218 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Why Vegans are wrong on 16:22 - Jan 28 by ARQS |
I eat meat and enjoy it.
I have also started eating a lot more plant based foods and in the main, these are very nice. I have substituted some things completely.
However, I try and not think too much about the impact that my decision to eat meat has on the animals. I feel very hypocritical as a pet owner, who loves cats and dogs as if they're one of the family with their little personalities yet am quite prepared for an equally sentient being to be killed so I can have a tasty meal.
I think in 20 years time, the kids of today will look at our meat consumption and be disgusted. |
That’s a perfectly reasonable position to take. We are all hypocrites in that we may love animals but also eat them too. Again though we often don’t realise how lucky we are being able to pick and choose what’s “right” to eat and what’s “wrong” to eat. The fact is if there was some sort of war/famine or some sort of incident that disrupted the food industry we’d soon stop being less picky. We’re only ever a few missed meals from eating each other. | | | |
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