| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart 14:28 - Feb 25 with 5182 views | STID2017 |
I copied this list of another thread and wondered how accurate it is, bearing in mind this method has been used to illustrate that Brad Bobbly was better for us than Russell Martin is , and that Michael Laudrup is a poor league manager than, well most, it would seem ?
Please note I have added numbers in reverse order and one anonymous manager's win rate :
League points per game:-
11 - Clement 1.11
10 - Laudrup 1.13
9 - Martin 1.22
8 - Guidolin 1.26
7 - Monk 1.31
6 - Potter 1.41
5 - Anonymous 1.45
4 - Sousa 1.50
3 - Rodgers 1.53
2 - Cooper 1.63
1 - Martinez 1.73
As I say it has been used as a fair way to compare success or otherwise of Martin, Bobbly and Laudrup based on League points achieved under their tenure.
So would appreciate posters thoughts on if it is to be considered an accurate and fair measure or not ? |  |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 14:44 - Feb 25 with 2631 views | Dr_Parnassus |
The thread that used this was a discussion around whether someone was “great”.
You claimed Laudrup was a “great” manager, the above was to show that in order to be a “great” manager then you can’t have one of the worst league records in the clubs modern history with one of the clubs best ever teams at your disposal.
You aren’t necessarily great if you have an excellent league record, but you are certainly not great if you don’t.
So that chart is perfectly reasonable to disprove greatness.
You would have to decide what your debate is before trying to put forward some absolute methodology.
But yours was just Laudrup being a “great” manager wasn’t it? |  |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 14:47 - Feb 25 with 2625 views | TenbySwan |
Shows how well Cooper did.
Martinez certainly did well, whilst it was in lower leagues it was still impressive. |  | | |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:06 - Feb 25 with 2612 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 14:44 - Feb 25 by Dr_Parnassus |
The thread that used this was a discussion around whether someone was “great”.
You claimed Laudrup was a “great” manager, the above was to show that in order to be a “great” manager then you can’t have one of the worst league records in the clubs modern history with one of the clubs best ever teams at your disposal.
You aren’t necessarily great if you have an excellent league record, but you are certainly not great if you don’t.
So that chart is perfectly reasonable to disprove greatness.
You would have to decide what your debate is before trying to put forward some absolute methodology.
But yours was just Laudrup being a “great” manager wasn’t it? |
So looking at those figures alone (which you did to judge Bobbly, Martin, Laudrup and Martinez ), how would you rate number 5 ? | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:08 - Feb 25 with 2611 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 14:47 - Feb 25 by TenbySwan |
Shows how well Cooper did.
Martinez certainly did well, whilst it was in lower leagues it was still impressive. |
Yes it is a surprising chart | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:14 - Feb 25 with 2601 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 14:44 - Feb 25 by Dr_Parnassus |
The thread that used this was a discussion around whether someone was “great”.
You claimed Laudrup was a “great” manager, the above was to show that in order to be a “great” manager then you can’t have one of the worst league records in the clubs modern history with one of the clubs best ever teams at your disposal.
You aren’t necessarily great if you have an excellent league record, but you are certainly not great if you don’t.
So that chart is perfectly reasonable to disprove greatness.
You would have to decide what your debate is before trying to put forward some absolute methodology.
But yours was just Laudrup being a “great” manager wasn’t it? |
No answer yet ?
Simple question I would have thought.
You have to use the same criteria to measure all the managers in the list | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:16 - Feb 25 with 2601 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:06 - Feb 25 by STID2017 |
So looking at those figures alone (which you did to judge Bobbly, Martin, Laudrup and Martinez ), how would you rate number 5 ? |
I didn’t use those that alone to judge those managers.
Not sure why you keep saying that when I have told you many times that this chart has formed part of my views, what they won in the league (promotions, play offs etc) is also important to note.
So again, it depends what you are looking to discuss as to what measurements you wish to use.
The thread you took this from was clear in its direction that it was to show Laudrup is not a “great” manager as he has one of the worst league records in recent times.
Achieving something great does not mean you are a great manager, just like scoring a great goal does not mean you are a great goal scorer.
So again, what is it you are trying to decipher and we can look at what measurements that will be important in determining that. I assume you have used a new thread to take away your initial “great” comment to take context away from the chart.
So I’m guessing you have since slept on it and decided to change the debate and move the goalposts?
Am I right? | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:20 - Feb 25 with 2592 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:16 - Feb 25 by Dr_Parnassus |
I didn’t use those that alone to judge those managers.
Not sure why you keep saying that when I have told you many times that this chart has formed part of my views, what they won in the league (promotions, play offs etc) is also important to note.
So again, it depends what you are looking to discuss as to what measurements you wish to use.
The thread you took this from was clear in its direction that it was to show Laudrup is not a “great” manager as he has one of the worst league records in recent times.
Achieving something great does not mean you are a great manager, just like scoring a great goal does not mean you are a great goal scorer.
So again, what is it you are trying to decipher and we can look at what measurements that will be important in determining that. I assume you have used a new thread to take away your initial “great” comment to take context away from the chart.
So I’m guessing you have since slept on it and decided to change the debate and move the goalposts?
Am I right? |
Not at all.
You used this simple formula to say that Bobbly was better than Martin - yes ?
You also used this simple formula to say that Martinez was better than Laudrup - yes ?
Please answer the question without one of you r convoluted answers | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:21 - Feb 25 with 2591 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:14 - Feb 25 by STID2017 |
No answer yet ?
Simple question I would have thought.
You have to use the same criteria to measure all the managers in the list |
The list was used as the criteria to show the presence of greatness, or lack of, rather.
It was not a comparison between managers. If that is the object of the discussion then there will be other slightly more nuances calculations to consider such us leagues and promotions won. I assume the mystery manager would have multiple promotions am I right?
That would certainly factor into any comparison.
So again you will have to decide what your statement is, before anyone can accurately give you an answer or a method to prove or disprove it. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:22 - Feb 25 with 2585 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:20 - Feb 25 by STID2017 |
Not at all.
You used this simple formula to say that Bobbly was better than Martin - yes ?
You also used this simple formula to say that Martinez was better than Laudrup - yes ?
Please answer the question without one of you r convoluted answers |
Nope, never.
Do you have an example of me showing this chart to show Bradley was a better manager than Martin?
Or the Martinez one will do, either is fine. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:23 - Feb 25 with 2579 views | Whiterockin |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:21 - Feb 25 by Dr_Parnassus |
The list was used as the criteria to show the presence of greatness, or lack of, rather.
It was not a comparison between managers. If that is the object of the discussion then there will be other slightly more nuances calculations to consider such us leagues and promotions won. I assume the mystery manager would have multiple promotions am I right?
That would certainly factor into any comparison.
So again you will have to decide what your statement is, before anyone can accurately give you an answer or a method to prove or disprove it. |
Hopefully you would also factor in trophies won and play off finals. |  |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:24 - Feb 25 with 2575 views | STID2017 |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:16 - Feb 25 by Dr_Parnassus |
I didn’t use those that alone to judge those managers.
Not sure why you keep saying that when I have told you many times that this chart has formed part of my views, what they won in the league (promotions, play offs etc) is also important to note.
So again, it depends what you are looking to discuss as to what measurements you wish to use.
The thread you took this from was clear in its direction that it was to show Laudrup is not a “great” manager as he has one of the worst league records in recent times.
Achieving something great does not mean you are a great manager, just like scoring a great goal does not mean you are a great goal scorer.
So again, what is it you are trying to decipher and we can look at what measurements that will be important in determining that. I assume you have used a new thread to take away your initial “great” comment to take context away from the chart.
So I’m guessing you have since slept on it and decided to change the debate and move the goalposts?
Am I right? |
So please tell me how such a comparison chart may be formulated
As I said on another thread to you, quite a few managers have won honours with Swans, so guessing Laudrup would be much higher up such a table based on winning a major trophy ?
Please clarify rather than dragging down this thread as you did my last | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:28 - Feb 25 with 2570 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:23 - Feb 25 by Whiterockin |
Hopefully you would also factor in trophies won and play off finals. |
Anything long term such as playoffs and promotions then yes absolutely as I just touched upon.
Trophies won, less so.
The league cup for example is 6 rounds, 4 of ours were against lower league opposition. Consistent trophy winning then yes, a one off - not so much. That would go under a great achievement by a manager category rather than proof of a great manager.
So it’s nuanced depending on what it is you are trying to work out.
STID doesn’t seem to forthcoming with what it is he’s trying to figure out so it’s impossible to say at this stage until he makes his mind up. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:31 - Feb 25 with 2569 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:24 - Feb 25 by STID2017 |
So please tell me how such a comparison chart may be formulated
As I said on another thread to you, quite a few managers have won honours with Swans, so guessing Laudrup would be much higher up such a table based on winning a major trophy ?
Please clarify rather than dragging down this thread as you did my last |
I just did.
League record is a large part of it, then you would look at league achievements such as play offs, promotions and titles.
Winning one cup (majority of rounds against lower league opposition) and doing poorly in the league certainly doesn’t hold much weight for me when trying to judge a managers actual ability.
It comes under “a great achievement by a manager”, rather than “an achievement by a great manager”.
It’s a very important distinction to make.
But if you refuse to tell me what it is you are trying to work out then this thread will only end up like the last one, as it is impossible to give you an answer to a question that you continually refuse to specify. [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 15:41]
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:47 - Feb 25 with 2546 views | Whiterockin |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:28 - Feb 25 by Dr_Parnassus |
Anything long term such as playoffs and promotions then yes absolutely as I just touched upon.
Trophies won, less so.
The league cup for example is 6 rounds, 4 of ours were against lower league opposition. Consistent trophy winning then yes, a one off - not so much. That would go under a great achievement by a manager category rather than proof of a great manager.
So it’s nuanced depending on what it is you are trying to work out.
STID doesn’t seem to forthcoming with what it is he’s trying to figure out so it’s impossible to say at this stage until he makes his mind up. |
I see your point, but winning a trophy and the European football it brings, lifting the profile of the club and finances has to be seen as successful. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:56 - Feb 25 with 2534 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:47 - Feb 25 by Whiterockin |
I see your point, but winning a trophy and the European football it brings, lifting the profile of the club and finances has to be seen as successful. |
Indeed, no disputing that, great achievement.
But sadly it doesn’t make a great manager. Which is why the height of his managerial career after that came in the Middle East and no decent club would touch him.
He’s now said management bores him, which marries up with his management style reported at the time and his lacklustre approach to training, man management and tactical discussions.
He’s not a great manager by any stretch of the imagination. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:02 - Feb 25 with 2522 views | Whiterockin |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 15:56 - Feb 25 by Dr_Parnassus |
Indeed, no disputing that, great achievement.
But sadly it doesn’t make a great manager. Which is why the height of his managerial career after that came in the Middle East and no decent club would touch him.
He’s now said management bores him, which marries up with his management style reported at the time and his lacklustre approach to training, man management and tactical discussions.
He’s not a great manager by any stretch of the imagination. |
I think "great manager" has to be in comparison to what has gone before and since. Who can be a great manager for our club is not necessarily a great manager full stop. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:14 - Feb 25 with 2505 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:02 - Feb 25 by Whiterockin |
I think "great manager" has to be in comparison to what has gone before and since. Who can be a great manager for our club is not necessarily a great manager full stop. |
Either way he is not great by any stretch of the imagination whether you are talking globally or just within our club.
The achievement may be great, but he is not a great manager. Hence he was sacked for his performance and players were speaking up regarding how embarrassed they were regarding tactical approaches and performances.
Towards the end it was painful, I was convinced he would have taken us down. I still am. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:32 - Feb 25 with 2482 views | Whiterockin |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:14 - Feb 25 by Dr_Parnassus |
Either way he is not great by any stretch of the imagination whether you are talking globally or just within our club.
The achievement may be great, but he is not a great manager. Hence he was sacked for his performance and players were speaking up regarding how embarrassed they were regarding tactical approaches and performances.
Towards the end it was painful, I was convinced he would have taken us down. I still am. |
He was sacked for "lack of commitment" due to spending a lot if time away from the club. It was not an embarrassment or tactical problem with the players it was Gary Monk carrying tales and fancying the job for himself. Not an opinion but a fact because I was quite close to several players at the time and we discussed it. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:42 - Feb 25 with 2479 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:32 - Feb 25 by Whiterockin |
He was sacked for "lack of commitment" due to spending a lot if time away from the club. It was not an embarrassment or tactical problem with the players it was Gary Monk carrying tales and fancying the job for himself. Not an opinion but a fact because I was quite close to several players at the time and we discussed it. |
I was there, witnessed it first hand. Horrific tactical nous, the West Ham game and how he dealt with Carroll was embarrassing.
Monk could have a thousand tell tales, it wouldn’t matter a jot if Laudrup could actually string some results together or make a smart tactical plan. However he checked out after the Cup and was sulking after Tutumlu was rightly given his marching orders.
1.13 points per game, that includes the good first 6 months. He was deservedly sacked on performance.
We had won 1 of our previous 10 league games when he was sacked. At that rate we would have had 3 wins on the board in a whole PL season, let that sink in. [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 16:50]
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:45 - Feb 25 with 2466 views | Whiterockin |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:42 - Feb 25 by Dr_Parnassus |
I was there, witnessed it first hand. Horrific tactical nous, the West Ham game and how he dealt with Carroll was embarrassing.
Monk could have a thousand tell tales, it wouldn’t matter a jot if Laudrup could actually string some results together or make a smart tactical plan. However he checked out after the Cup and was sulking after Tutumlu was rightly given his marching orders.
1.13 points per game, that includes the good first 6 months. He was deservedly sacked on performance.
We had won 1 of our previous 10 league games when he was sacked. At that rate we would have had 3 wins on the board in a whole PL season, let that sink in. [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 16:50]
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All about opinions then, it's good to differ. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:46 - Feb 25 with 2466 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:45 - Feb 25 by Whiterockin |
All about opinions then, it's good to differ. |
If I remember rightly he was the first manager in a decade we had to sack. Everyone else was poached and went on to bigger clubs, or at least higher placed clubs. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:52 - Feb 25 with 2447 views | Whiterockin |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:46 - Feb 25 by Dr_Parnassus |
If I remember rightly he was the first manager in a decade we had to sack. Everyone else was poached and went on to bigger clubs, or at least higher placed clubs. |
Soussa would have been sacked but we were lucky he left. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:57 - Feb 25 with 2438 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:52 - Feb 25 by Whiterockin |
Soussa would have been sacked but we were lucky he left. |
He moved us on, improved on Martinez’ finish. One of our most underrated managers was Sousa. But boring but he got the job done in the league and set some great foundations for Brendan.
Since managed Fiorentina, Poland, Flamengo and Bordeaux.
Not too shabby. | |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 17:04 - Feb 25 with 2426 views | onehunglow |
Forget points per game stats Look at what we see .
Nothing in recent years was as bad
Even falling out of the prem wasn’t as abject although obviously upsetting |  |
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| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 21:03 - Feb 25 with 2370 views | Whiterockin |
| Points Per Game Manager Comparison Chart on 16:57 - Feb 25 by Dr_Parnassus |
He moved us on, improved on Martinez’ finish. One of our most underrated managers was Sousa. But boring but he got the job done in the league and set some great foundations for Brendan.
Since managed Fiorentina, Poland, Flamengo and Bordeaux.
Not too shabby. |
So are we talking about who was a good/great manager for us or who went on to have a career after us. Because TBH I don’t care how successful they are after they leave us, only what they do for us. | |
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