| Indy support falls 17:28 - Mar 3 with 8136 views | SullutaCreturned |
I'm surprised nobody has posted this,
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/
It also looks like Plaid Cymru are in disarray,
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/
It's not really a good look, is it? Plaid and thir great Welsh hope are nothing more than a clique of self serving no hopers and the Indy support hit a high but now support is waning as it looks much like Labour will thrash the tories in the next GE and with Sturgeon going it appears indy support in Scotland has fallen too.
Reports of the death of the UK seem quite premature! |  | | |  |
| Indy support falls on 14:45 - Mar 9 with 991 views | BarrySwan |
| Indy support falls on 03:14 - Mar 9 by Kilkennyjack |
Also john, the uk has a huge debt and wales cannot afford to stay.
Why dont people start there ?
Any debt taken out in our name but without our consent will not stand.
Wales needs the tools that only Indy can bring.
Devo max under a uk labour govt might work for even 20 years, but the undermining of the Senedd by English Tory MPs will accelerate the calls for full Indy soonest. |
Surely it must be fairly obvious to even the most financially illiterate that financial spending in Wales is also partly responsible for the mammoth debt that you highlight | | | |
| Indy support falls on 17:43 - Mar 9 with 943 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Indy support falls on 03:07 - Mar 9 by Kilkennyjack |
The uk will also rejoin the eu.
Look at the scenes in Ukraine and Georgia.
The eu is a good thing, whilst brexit ideology is dishonest, divisive, and a fundamentally dumb ass idea. An idea to get Johnson to PM no matter what.
An indy wales will join the eu, just like ireland.
This is not a controversial view. Its inevitable. |
Not without a referendum
Ukraine and Georgia? They are not in the EU and hardly likley to be anytime soon.
Brexit was an idea Bojo jumped on, it wasn't his idea.
Indy Wales, in itself it's an unlikley idea but how long do you think it will be before an Indy Wales was granted membership, I'll remind you AGAIN about the Copenhagen criteria.
It's not a controversial view but there are several other words to amply describe it with unlikley beinga good one.
Maybe you need reminding but one of the reasons for Putin invading Ukraine (genuine or not) was them being courted by the EU and their suggested membership of NATO. How would you feel if it was the EU courting Ukraine that triggered the war in Europe? | | | |
| Indy support falls on 17:50 - Mar 9 with 935 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Indy support falls on 08:39 - Mar 9 by felixstowe_jack |
Much of the debt was of course run up during the labour banking crisis and paying for 12 million people to keep their jobs during covoid. Not helped of course by the annual £24 billion subsidies to Scotland snd Wales.
Time for a second devolution referendum before Drakeford installs more Senedd and changes the voting system. |
Its the uk debt. The end. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Indy support falls on 17:51 - Mar 9 with 933 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Indy support falls on 14:45 - Mar 9 by BarrySwan |
Surely it must be fairly obvious to even the most financially illiterate that financial spending in Wales is also partly responsible for the mammoth debt that you highlight |
Is this a joke ?
This is a uk govt debt. Fact. | |
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| Indy support falls on 17:54 - Mar 9 with 931 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Indy support falls on 17:43 - Mar 9 by SullutaCreturned |
Not without a referendum
Ukraine and Georgia? They are not in the EU and hardly likley to be anytime soon.
Brexit was an idea Bojo jumped on, it wasn't his idea.
Indy Wales, in itself it's an unlikley idea but how long do you think it will be before an Indy Wales was granted membership, I'll remind you AGAIN about the Copenhagen criteria.
It's not a controversial view but there are several other words to amply describe it with unlikley beinga good one.
Maybe you need reminding but one of the reasons for Putin invading Ukraine (genuine or not) was them being courted by the EU and their suggested membership of NATO. How would you feel if it was the EU courting Ukraine that triggered the war in Europe? |
Are you suggesting that Ukraine somehow deserves this war ? | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Indy support falls on 18:25 - Mar 9 with 920 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Indy support falls on 17:54 - Mar 9 by Kilkennyjack |
Are you suggesting that Ukraine somehow deserves this war ? |
Don't be absurd. Oh, I forgot, you can't be anything else. | | | |
| Indy support falls on 18:27 - Mar 9 with 919 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Indy support falls on 17:51 - Mar 9 by Kilkennyjack |
Is this a joke ?
This is a uk govt debt. Fact. |
No, it's the UK national debt and Wales is part of the UK. | | | |
| Indy support falls on 18:32 - Mar 9 with 917 views | Togg |
| Indy support falls on 18:27 - Mar 9 by SullutaCreturned |
No, it's the UK national debt and Wales is part of the UK. |
Not in his head. | | | |
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| Indy support falls on 19:29 - Mar 9 with 904 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Indy support falls on 18:27 - Mar 9 by SullutaCreturned |
No, it's the UK national debt and Wales is part of the UK. |
A debt taken (partly) in our name, but not with our consent will not stand. | |
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| Indy support falls on 21:13 - Mar 9 with 882 views | Boundy |
| Indy support falls on 18:27 - Mar 9 by SullutaCreturned |
No, it's the UK national debt and Wales is part of the UK. |
Simple economics for simple folk | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Indy support falls on 21:16 - Mar 9 with 878 views | Boundy |
| Indy support falls on 19:29 - Mar 9 by Kilkennyjack |
A debt taken (partly) in our name, but not with our consent will not stand. |
I know I shouldn't but dissect the costs and explain in what context do you meant consent | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Indy support falls on 14:57 - Mar 10 with 818 views | johnlangy |
| Indy support falls on 19:22 - Mar 8 by SullutaCreturned |
John, as always you make logical points, good points. I disagree with some purely because some may or may not be right, such as the true deficit.
The drop in support was given as down to 18% by the WoL, without an avtual vote on it we will never know the true support levels.
When I said the nats will never give us a vote, I should have been more specific, it was aimed at the few on here who expecta new brexit vote but would never, no matter what, allow a vote on devo. Those same people (or at least a person) insists that an indy Wales will join the EU.
Your last sentence, such facts are thin on the ground, cnstantly argued about and we cannot agree about the deficit or the percentage support because we don't have a definite number as a "fact"
One certain fact seems to eb that with the tories looking certain to lose the next vote, indy support has been affected. |
Thank you for a considered response Cat (oops  ). I'll address my frustration at the question of the deficit.
When I try to explain why the deficit is nowhere near what is portrayed in the press I do it to argue that Wales would do very well as an Independent country. But it’s also something that should be important to people who don’t want Independence. People who want Wales to stay as part of the UK. They should also want to prove the figures wrong out of simple pride as a Welsh person.
I’ll explain. At various times over the years the UK press has published various figures about the Welsh economy, sometimes saying how big the deficit is, sometimes measuring it in how much each individual in Wales is subsidised per year (Felix mentioned £3000 earlier in the thread), sometimes just referring to Wales as a begging bowl country or a country with it’s hand out saying ‘please sir, can I have some more’. I’ve also seen individual English people coming out with these same comments, which is perfectly understandable because they read the same national papers as we do. So they get the same information.
I find that thoroughly embarrassing and try my best to prove it wrong. But I would have thought that every single Welsh person would feel the same. Wanting to correct this is nothing to do with Independence as such. It’s to do with wanting to show that Wales is none of the above. It’s about being proud to be Welsh and standing up for Wales within the UK. And if we can prove that Wales is not a begging bowl country that doesn’t mean you have to vote yes to Independence. It doesn’t mean you have to change your opinion at all.
You said Cat that we cannot agree about the deficit. A while ago someone asked why doesn’t someone actually carry out a study to establish the true situation. A few months ago Plaid commissioned a man named Professor John Doyle of Dublin University to do exactly that. He came to the conclusion in his report that the real Welsh deficit was in actual fact £2.6 billion.
I posted this information on some other thread and also mentioned that rather than going through the pain of obtaining a copy of this report a bloke named David H Smith had created a youtube video with the title ‘What is Cymru’s Deficit — Welsh Independence’ in which he detailed all the figures making it easy to follow.
I’ll say it again. No Welsh person should actually want Wales to be portrayed the way I explained above. Every Welsh person should want Professor Doyle’s findings to be true.
Look at the video. | | | |
| Indy support falls on 15:07 - Mar 10 with 803 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Indy support falls on 19:29 - Mar 9 by Kilkennyjack |
A debt taken (partly) in our name, but not with our consent will not stand. |
I don't remember the Senedd evrr turning down money as part of the devolved agreement?
Are you suggesting Drakeford has been telling Westminster to keep their money? | | | |
| Indy support falls on 15:23 - Mar 10 with 799 views | BarrySwan |
| Indy support falls on 17:51 - Mar 9 by Kilkennyjack |
Is this a joke ?
This is a uk govt debt. Fact. |
No it isn't a joke.
I repeat my point that UK government borrowings and debt have been accrued by all of the 4 home nations and spent on behalf of those 4 home nations.
Heres a 2021 report that may help you understand some of the factors involved.
https://www.instituteforgovern
I'm sure that if you spend long enough poring over it you'll be able to pick something out that proves that Wales is an economic powerhouse? [Post edited 10 Mar 2023 15:50]
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| Indy support falls on 16:00 - Mar 10 with 780 views | Whiterockin |
| Indy support falls on 15:07 - Mar 10 by SullutaCreturned |
I don't remember the Senedd evrr turning down money as part of the devolved agreement?
Are you suggesting Drakeford has been telling Westminster to keep their money? |
I'm sure the Senedd refused the money for the bypass. |  | | |
| Indy support falls on 16:24 - Mar 10 with 757 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Indy support falls on 16:00 - Mar 10 by Whiterockin |
I'm sure the Senedd refused the money for the bypass. |
it wasn't part of the devolved agreement. t was extra money for Wales to build the M4 bypass. | | | |
| Indy support falls on 16:26 - Mar 10 with 753 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Indy support falls on 21:16 - Mar 9 by Boundy |
I know I shouldn't but dissect the costs and explain in what context do you meant consent |
He obviously doesn't consider Drakeford constantly saying Westminster doesn't give Wales enough money to be a form of consent! I suppose it's not, it's a demand or maybe begging but consent.... | | | |
| Indy support falls on 18:31 - Mar 10 with 730 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Indy support falls on 14:57 - Mar 10 by johnlangy |
Thank you for a considered response Cat (oops ). I'll address my frustration at the question of the deficit.
When I try to explain why the deficit is nowhere near what is portrayed in the press I do it to argue that Wales would do very well as an Independent country. But it’s also something that should be important to people who don’t want Independence. People who want Wales to stay as part of the UK. They should also want to prove the figures wrong out of simple pride as a Welsh person.
I’ll explain. At various times over the years the UK press has published various figures about the Welsh economy, sometimes saying how big the deficit is, sometimes measuring it in how much each individual in Wales is subsidised per year (Felix mentioned £3000 earlier in the thread), sometimes just referring to Wales as a begging bowl country or a country with it’s hand out saying ‘please sir, can I have some more’. I’ve also seen individual English people coming out with these same comments, which is perfectly understandable because they read the same national papers as we do. So they get the same information.
I find that thoroughly embarrassing and try my best to prove it wrong. But I would have thought that every single Welsh person would feel the same. Wanting to correct this is nothing to do with Independence as such. It’s to do with wanting to show that Wales is none of the above. It’s about being proud to be Welsh and standing up for Wales within the UK. And if we can prove that Wales is not a begging bowl country that doesn’t mean you have to vote yes to Independence. It doesn’t mean you have to change your opinion at all.
You said Cat that we cannot agree about the deficit. A while ago someone asked why doesn’t someone actually carry out a study to establish the true situation. A few months ago Plaid commissioned a man named Professor John Doyle of Dublin University to do exactly that. He came to the conclusion in his report that the real Welsh deficit was in actual fact £2.6 billion.
I posted this information on some other thread and also mentioned that rather than going through the pain of obtaining a copy of this report a bloke named David H Smith had created a youtube video with the title ‘What is Cymru’s Deficit — Welsh Independence’ in which he detailed all the figures making it easy to follow.
I’ll say it again. No Welsh person should actually want Wales to be portrayed the way I explained above. Every Welsh person should want Professor Doyle’s findings to be true.
Look at the video. |
Great post John.
Others on here would do well to read it and reflect. | |
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| Indy support falls on 18:51 - Mar 10 with 720 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Indy support falls on 18:31 - Mar 10 by Kilkennyjack |
Great post John.
Others on here would do well to read it and reflect. |
I did read it and you won't like this but...I am Welsh and British and proud to be neither. it was an accident of birth. Pride in nations is what causes so many arguments. | | | |
| Indy support falls on 19:23 - Mar 10 with 704 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Indy support falls on 14:57 - Mar 10 by johnlangy |
Thank you for a considered response Cat (oops ). I'll address my frustration at the question of the deficit.
When I try to explain why the deficit is nowhere near what is portrayed in the press I do it to argue that Wales would do very well as an Independent country. But it’s also something that should be important to people who don’t want Independence. People who want Wales to stay as part of the UK. They should also want to prove the figures wrong out of simple pride as a Welsh person.
I’ll explain. At various times over the years the UK press has published various figures about the Welsh economy, sometimes saying how big the deficit is, sometimes measuring it in how much each individual in Wales is subsidised per year (Felix mentioned £3000 earlier in the thread), sometimes just referring to Wales as a begging bowl country or a country with it’s hand out saying ‘please sir, can I have some more’. I’ve also seen individual English people coming out with these same comments, which is perfectly understandable because they read the same national papers as we do. So they get the same information.
I find that thoroughly embarrassing and try my best to prove it wrong. But I would have thought that every single Welsh person would feel the same. Wanting to correct this is nothing to do with Independence as such. It’s to do with wanting to show that Wales is none of the above. It’s about being proud to be Welsh and standing up for Wales within the UK. And if we can prove that Wales is not a begging bowl country that doesn’t mean you have to vote yes to Independence. It doesn’t mean you have to change your opinion at all.
You said Cat that we cannot agree about the deficit. A while ago someone asked why doesn’t someone actually carry out a study to establish the true situation. A few months ago Plaid commissioned a man named Professor John Doyle of Dublin University to do exactly that. He came to the conclusion in his report that the real Welsh deficit was in actual fact £2.6 billion.
I posted this information on some other thread and also mentioned that rather than going through the pain of obtaining a copy of this report a bloke named David H Smith had created a youtube video with the title ‘What is Cymru’s Deficit — Welsh Independence’ in which he detailed all the figures making it easy to follow.
I’ll say it again. No Welsh person should actually want Wales to be portrayed the way I explained above. Every Welsh person should want Professor Doyle’s findings to be true.
Look at the video. |
Of course a Plaid sponsored report will come up with a much small figure than the actual figure produced by the independent ONS. Under the Barnett formula for every £100 spent in England the Welsh Government receive £120 which is 20% higher. Scotland receives £130 which is more than Wales
Fortunately 80% of the Welsh population realise the great benefit of being part of the democratic UK.
Storage also though those in favour of Welsh independence want to be an even smaller part of an undemocratic EU. | |
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| Indy support falls on 20:03 - Mar 10 with 690 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Indy support falls on 19:03 - Mar 10 by Dr_Winston |
Welsh people might not like Wales being depicted as an economic basket case overly dependent upon Central Goverment jobs and subsidy, but not liking something doesn't make it untrue.
An independent Wales run by the Government it has would be a hellhole on a par with Venezuela within five or ten years. The Westminster government would probably be more concerned with dinghies containing economic migrants landing in Ilfracombe or Minehead rather than Dover. [Post edited 10 Mar 2023 19:03]
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If coal rich Wales is now an economic basket case then the problem can be firmly placed at Westminsters door.
What has happened the our wealth ?
Its almost like it was taken elsewhere and the welsh people were robbed.
If Wales had been given the opportunity to invest in its future, then that future would have been very bright. Lots of wealth with a small population.
Thats the truth you asked for.
Every democratic small nation in western europe is progressive and wealthy.
Thats because you can make the decisions needed, and not have Mogg and the like ignoring our needs.
Indy Wales will need no hand outs. | |
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| Indy support falls on 20:06 - Mar 10 with 687 views | Dr_Winston |
| Indy support falls on 20:03 - Mar 10 by Kilkennyjack |
If coal rich Wales is now an economic basket case then the problem can be firmly placed at Westminsters door.
What has happened the our wealth ?
Its almost like it was taken elsewhere and the welsh people were robbed.
If Wales had been given the opportunity to invest in its future, then that future would have been very bright. Lots of wealth with a small population.
Thats the truth you asked for.
Every democratic small nation in western europe is progressive and wealthy.
Thats because you can make the decisions needed, and not have Mogg and the like ignoring our needs.
Indy Wales will need no hand outs. |
I don't think even you understand what the f*ck you're babbling on about at this point. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Indy support falls on 20:23 - Mar 10 with 681 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Indy support falls on 20:06 - Mar 10 by Dr_Winston |
I don't think even you understand what the f*ck you're babbling on about at this point. |
Or maybe it is just too hard for you to understand ..
To help, I will copy Johnsons style so you can understand.
Indy. Better. Cymru. ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ | |
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| Indy support falls on 20:30 - Mar 10 with 665 views | raynor94 |
| Indy support falls on 20:23 - Mar 10 by Kilkennyjack |
Or maybe it is just too hard for you to understand ..
To help, I will copy Johnsons style so you can understand.
Indy. Better. Cymru. ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ |
How many more years now? You started at 5 increased it to 10, it will never happen, at last people are waking up to how this so called assembly are ruining Wales |  |
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