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Devolution Debate 10:26 - Dec 14 with 5219 viewsunion_jack

An interesting extract from Hansard regarding a recent parliamentary debate on devolution in Wales. A long read but highlights so many points that most of us feel. Keep it clean!

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2023-12-12/debates/AF6AA5F8-DD3D-497D-AD47

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Devolution Debate on 19:16 - Dec 14 with 2458 viewsSullutaCreturned

Pretty much everything that he said has been posted on here, including the attacks on people claiming they are anti Welsh, must hate Wales etc which he answers admirably.

Devolution has failed, the Senedd is ample proof that the politicians of Wales cannot governm Wales well enough.

We need change.
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Devolution Debate on 19:27 - Dec 14 with 2450 viewsunion_jack

Devolution Debate on 19:16 - Dec 14 by SullutaCreturned

Pretty much everything that he said has been posted on here, including the attacks on people claiming they are anti Welsh, must hate Wales etc which he answers admirably.

Devolution has failed, the Senedd is ample proof that the politicians of Wales cannot governm Wales well enough.

We need change.


Indeed, and 25 years is long enough to come to this conclusion.

Are Sperm Whales the reason the sea is so salty?
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Devolution Debate on 23:45 - Dec 14 with 2397 viewsBoundy

The sentiments in that exchange could have been spoken by myself ( if I had the intellect to express myself as clearly and as passionately ) Everything that Mr Roberts spoke of was a clear and resounding description of everything that Devolution had failed us on, the only disappointment for me was it looks like the current tory administration feel that there no need to discuss it further but I believe there is in now, due to the speed limit farce more awareness what Welsh politics is about and its impact on every day living

"In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master."

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Devolution Debate on 06:35 - Dec 15 with 2367 viewsScotia

I completely agree with the sentiment behind that, but I do think it's a bit of mud slinging too, and some of the issues he raises are partly to blame as a root cause on Westminster too and his former party (who expelled him for being a pervert).

The NHS for instance, we only get a certain amount to spend on it as a % of what England gets and it's not enough. It's not enough in England either. That's down to austerity and 15 years of underinvestment. It's the same with other similar departments, although WG could do better than they are by spending that money better.

We could definitely spend that money better though, we don't need universal free prescription medication or free school meals. I'm entitled to both from WG but Westminster place my salary over the threshold to get child benefit. It must waste millions.

Devolution hasn't been a success and one thing it demonstrates is that we haven't got the ability as a country to be independent. Certainly over the medium term, we're not clever enough either as a population or politically.
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Devolution Debate on 07:27 - Dec 15 with 2354 viewsBryanSwan

Devolution Debate on 19:16 - Dec 14 by SullutaCreturned

Pretty much everything that he said has been posted on here, including the attacks on people claiming they are anti Welsh, must hate Wales etc which he answers admirably.

Devolution has failed, the Senedd is ample proof that the politicians of Wales cannot governm Wales well enough.

We need change.


Has devolution failed or are the politicians that we having charge of it simply not up to scratch.
I wouldn't want us to be thrown back under Westminsters sole control, but clearly there do need to be some big changes going forward.

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Devolution Debate on 09:42 - Dec 15 with 2313 viewsunion_jack

Devolution Debate on 06:35 - Dec 15 by Scotia

I completely agree with the sentiment behind that, but I do think it's a bit of mud slinging too, and some of the issues he raises are partly to blame as a root cause on Westminster too and his former party (who expelled him for being a pervert).

The NHS for instance, we only get a certain amount to spend on it as a % of what England gets and it's not enough. It's not enough in England either. That's down to austerity and 15 years of underinvestment. It's the same with other similar departments, although WG could do better than they are by spending that money better.

We could definitely spend that money better though, we don't need universal free prescription medication or free school meals. I'm entitled to both from WG but Westminster place my salary over the threshold to get child benefit. It must waste millions.

Devolution hasn't been a success and one thing it demonstrates is that we haven't got the ability as a country to be independent. Certainly over the medium term, we're not clever enough either as a population or politically.


My bet is that you could give WG twice the amount for the NHS and they’d mis-manage it, I agree that Wales doesn’t get enough for the NHS though due to demographics.

I disagree with you on free prescriptions and school meals. The prescriptions especially involve spending a little to save a lot (relatively). If we scrapped free prescriptions tomorrow and diverted the money to the NHS it wouldn’t be any better in reality but people will become sicker due to not wanting to pay for meds. I suspect there’d always be free meds for those unable to pay.

Wales has had 25 years to prove its ability to govern itself in key areas and has failed Year after year. To compensate fir this failure they somehow manage to alienate more people by spending on vanity projects and cultural identity which are not the important issues on which to focus.

Time for the WG to go and start a better, more equitable relationship as part if the UK.

Are Sperm Whales the reason the sea is so salty?
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Devolution Debate on 14:59 - Dec 15 with 2269 viewsScotia

Devolution Debate on 09:42 - Dec 15 by union_jack

My bet is that you could give WG twice the amount for the NHS and they’d mis-manage it, I agree that Wales doesn’t get enough for the NHS though due to demographics.

I disagree with you on free prescriptions and school meals. The prescriptions especially involve spending a little to save a lot (relatively). If we scrapped free prescriptions tomorrow and diverted the money to the NHS it wouldn’t be any better in reality but people will become sicker due to not wanting to pay for meds. I suspect there’d always be free meds for those unable to pay.

Wales has had 25 years to prove its ability to govern itself in key areas and has failed Year after year. To compensate fir this failure they somehow manage to alienate more people by spending on vanity projects and cultural identity which are not the important issues on which to focus.

Time for the WG to go and start a better, more equitable relationship as part if the UK.


I don't think we should scrap free prescriptions for all or free school meals for all. But not everybody needs them especially when there's a working alternative that we used to have and is still used over the border.

Introducing school meals for primary school pupils must have cost a fortune, and most people don't really need it. If I paid for my daughter's school lunches it would cost about £60 a month and I assume they don't make any profit on that.

That cost across every child under 11 in Wales is eye watering and a waste.

I agree, get rid, but the entire political situation needs to change too.
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Devolution Debate on 15:45 - Dec 15 with 2261 viewsSullutaCreturned

Devolution Debate on 14:59 - Dec 15 by Scotia

I don't think we should scrap free prescriptions for all or free school meals for all. But not everybody needs them especially when there's a working alternative that we used to have and is still used over the border.

Introducing school meals for primary school pupils must have cost a fortune, and most people don't really need it. If I paid for my daughter's school lunches it would cost about £60 a month and I assume they don't make any profit on that.

That cost across every child under 11 in Wales is eye watering and a waste.

I agree, get rid, but the entire political situation needs to change too.


My opinion about everything is that benefits are for those in need. If you can't afford scripts or school meals then you get help, if you can afford then you pay.

I'm not in favour of universla benefits, those who can afford to pay shoud pay.

The Senedd has been wasting millions when they claim they don't have enough money. It's bonkers.
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Devolution Debate on 16:04 - Dec 15 with 2245 viewsKilkennyjack



Jump on the Indy bus bois bach …. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 ….. its only going one way ….

Beware of the Risen People

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Devolution Debate on 16:09 - Dec 15 with 2242 viewsKilkennyjack

Devolution Debate on 15:45 - Dec 15 by SullutaCreturned

My opinion about everything is that benefits are for those in need. If you can't afford scripts or school meals then you get help, if you can afford then you pay.

I'm not in favour of universla benefits, those who can afford to pay shoud pay.

The Senedd has been wasting millions when they claim they don't have enough money. It's bonkers.


Its a proven fact that the take up of universal benefits always exceeds means tested benefits.

So …… if you really want to get help to the people who need it most, then making something a universal benefit is a proven way to do it.


Not wasting money on Rwanda, Brexit, and illegal wars would also help in funding those most in need.
Likewise clawing back PPE fraud money.

Beware of the Risen People

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Devolution Debate on 16:15 - Dec 15 with 2227 viewsJoesus_Of_Narbereth

Devolution Debate on 16:04 - Dec 15 by Kilkennyjack



Jump on the Indy bus bois bach …. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 ….. its only going one way ….


Why would they remove the don’t knows?

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Devolution Debate on 16:17 - Dec 15 with 2223 viewsWhiterockin

Devolution Debate on 16:04 - Dec 15 by Kilkennyjack



Jump on the Indy bus bois bach …. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 ….. its only going one way ….


They will have more common sense as they get older. What is the percentage of the over 24s, by far the greater number of the electorate.
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Devolution Debate on 16:17 - Dec 15 with 2216 viewsKilkennyjack

Devolution Debate on 16:15 - Dec 15 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth

Why would they remove the don’t knows?


I don’t know

Beware of the Risen People

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Devolution Debate on 16:18 - Dec 15 with 2211 viewsWhiterockin

Devolution Debate on 16:17 - Dec 15 by Kilkennyjack

I don’t know


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Devolution Debate on 16:18 - Dec 15 with 2209 viewsSullutaCreturned

Devolution Debate on 16:09 - Dec 15 by Kilkennyjack

Its a proven fact that the take up of universal benefits always exceeds means tested benefits.

So …… if you really want to get help to the people who need it most, then making something a universal benefit is a proven way to do it.


Not wasting money on Rwanda, Brexit, and illegal wars would also help in funding those most in need.
Likewise clawing back PPE fraud money.


So rich people get money too, what a stupid way to do it. Why should a premier league footballer on 60k and lots more, get child benefit?

Why should a multi millionaire qualify for a free bus pass?

No, the way to do it is to get the message out effectively. Giving millions away to people who don't need the money is wasteful. When you apply for benefits you supply your income too.
What it come down to is that government departments need to communicate more effectively, for that we need better politicians to make it happen. it won't happen with the current bunch of useless twonks, that applies to all the UK governments.
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Devolution Debate on 16:21 - Dec 15 with 2187 viewsKilkennyjack

Devolution Debate on 16:17 - Dec 15 by Whiterockin

They will have more common sense as they get older. What is the percentage of the over 24s, by far the greater number of the electorate.


No its not common sense.

Its confidence.
They see many successful smaller nations in Europe and they know Wales would be better without the tired old broken uk model.

Once the oldies shuffle off then the future is assured.
Its already game over for the yoons.



🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 - An incredible 54% of under-45s!
[Post edited 15 Dec 2023 16:22]

Beware of the Risen People

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Devolution Debate on 16:23 - Dec 15 with 2184 viewsJoesus_Of_Narbereth

Devolution Debate on 16:17 - Dec 15 by Kilkennyjack

I don’t know


Good answer.

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Devolution Debate on 16:24 - Dec 15 with 2174 viewsKilkennyjack

Devolution Debate on 16:18 - Dec 15 by SullutaCreturned

So rich people get money too, what a stupid way to do it. Why should a premier league footballer on 60k and lots more, get child benefit?

Why should a multi millionaire qualify for a free bus pass?

No, the way to do it is to get the message out effectively. Giving millions away to people who don't need the money is wasteful. When you apply for benefits you supply your income too.
What it come down to is that government departments need to communicate more effectively, for that we need better politicians to make it happen. it won't happen with the current bunch of useless twonks, that applies to all the UK governments.


I do agree, its just the facts are the facts.

Hopefully it will change in future.

Beware of the Risen People

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Devolution Debate on 16:25 - Dec 15 with 2176 viewsJoesus_Of_Narbereth

Devolution Debate on 16:21 - Dec 15 by Kilkennyjack

No its not common sense.

Its confidence.
They see many successful smaller nations in Europe and they know Wales would be better without the tired old broken uk model.

Once the oldies shuffle off then the future is assured.
Its already game over for the yoons.



🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 - An incredible 54% of under-45s!
[Post edited 15 Dec 2023 16:22]


Weighted and excluding don’t knows…. They might as well just go the whole hog and exclude no’s too.

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Devolution Debate on 17:22 - Dec 15 with 2157 viewsAnotherJohn

One issue that came up in the discussion is whether public healthcare spending in Wales (and the budget allocated) is lower than it should be. UK home country comparisons are notoriously difficult. partly because of geography, population sparsity and demography. However, the latest 2021-02 breakdown I could find for per capita public health expenditure is: as follows:

England £3192
N. Ireland: £3439
Wales: £3459
Scotland: £3490

So we spend more per head than England but quite a lot less than Scotland, and part of that can be attributed to historical factors affecting the Barnett formula allocations, the money coming from central government in London.

However, another factor to consider is that the WG does have some flexibility regarding what proportion of these monies it allocates to the NHS. Unlike in England where the NHS budget is ring-fenced, Wales in recent years has moved some monies to social care (for which a reasonable argument can be made). Consequently some observers, such as the author of this Wales Online article, say that both the WG and Westminster carry some responsibility for the underfunding of the Welsh NHS.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/welsh-nhs-knees-who-put-26918450
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Devolution Debate on 17:35 - Dec 15 with 2153 viewsWingstandwood

Devolution Debate on 16:04 - Dec 15 by Kilkennyjack



Jump on the Indy bus bois bach …. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 ….. its only going one way ….


It won’t be 58% of 16 -24 years old if ever there ever was a campaign for full independence?

Why? Because leading WELSH members of The Royal College Of Surgeons, RCN, The Royal College of General Practitioners, The British Institute Of Radiology and BMA Cymru Wales etc will campaign against the catastrophic loss of ENGLISH NHS services that Wales depends on and cannot ever do without.

You know? High ranking Welsh proffesionals outside of immature stuudent activist politics and debate who happen to know how the real world happens to work.

Meanwhile in YesCymru cloud-cuckoo-land Welsh-activist tw*ts who cannot tell the difference between the words ECG and ETC will be unable to explain how Wales goes it alone when it is so reliant on English NHS services.

Tell me how many leading lights within Welsh NHS are pushing for full independance?


Argus!

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Devolution Debate on 17:39 - Dec 15 with 2148 viewsScotia

Devolution Debate on 15:45 - Dec 15 by SullutaCreturned

My opinion about everything is that benefits are for those in need. If you can't afford scripts or school meals then you get help, if you can afford then you pay.

I'm not in favour of universla benefits, those who can afford to pay shoud pay.

The Senedd has been wasting millions when they claim they don't have enough money. It's bonkers.


I completely agree. Bit of a shit post, but that's how it should be.

Apologies Cat. my shit reply, not your post.
[Post edited 15 Dec 2023 20:34]
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Devolution Debate on 18:04 - Dec 15 with 2131 viewsWingstandwood

It's the infantile naivety and preposterous wishful thinking! Aye it'll all be sorted out 'Hey Presto' style from a Welsh Goverment that has taken a quarter of a century NOT to build a relief road.

And they seriously believe that mass reorganisation and rebuilding of Wales's NHS is going to be achieved ASAP, all go from day one by the same caliber of idiots of type who are in charge of the U.K's worst performing health service ….Thank God for England because it would be even more catastrophic.
.

Argus!

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Devolution Debate on 18:18 - Dec 15 with 2117 viewsTogg

Devolution Debate on 18:04 - Dec 15 by Wingstandwood

It's the infantile naivety and preposterous wishful thinking! Aye it'll all be sorted out 'Hey Presto' style from a Welsh Goverment that has taken a quarter of a century NOT to build a relief road.

And they seriously believe that mass reorganisation and rebuilding of Wales's NHS is going to be achieved ASAP, all go from day one by the same caliber of idiots of type who are in charge of the U.K's worst performing health service ….Thank God for England because it would be even more catastrophic.
.


Brilliant 👍 laughed at that
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Devolution Debate on 18:32 - Dec 15 with 2105 viewsWingstandwood

Devolution Debate on 18:18 - Dec 15 by Togg

Brilliant 👍 laughed at that


That's the way these Welsh-Nats think and they even think that Wales can expect to get away with ordering payment from England for Welsh water, but still be able to renegotiate over generous deals from England, despite the fact that England would be THE country in a vastly more advantageous position of power.

And the Welsh-Nats have never heard of desalination and the building of new dams?

And could you imagine the anger and outrage of the English public if Wales was still sending patients into English hospitals in the event of full independence?

Argus!

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