| The Mutual Invetment Model 10:23 - Dec 6 with 786 views | Catullus |
Or as I call it, PFI by another name.
Take the A465, they are going to upgrade it from Dowlais to Hirwaun which is approximately 11 miles. The cost of the work is 590 million. Under the MIM agreement the Senedd is going to pay for it over 30 years at 38 million per year, a totla cost of 1.14 billion. Except it's not the total cost because inflation rising will also increase the payments.
So 1.2 billion for 11 miles of dual carriageway, the M4 relief road would have cost less than 2 billion (allowing for rising costs tht always happen) for 14 miles of a road over twice the width.
How is this good value for money? How much would it cost to borrow this money? How long to pay a 590 million loan at 38 million per year? At 20 years it's 760 million but interest rates are very low right now.
Surely there is a more cost effective solution. Denbighshire have rejected the MIM/PFI route as being unduly expensive but most other councils are for it apparently. |  |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:44 - Dec 6 with 770 views | felixstowe_jack |
The same thing happened under labour with many news hospitals being built using PFI . The companies were allowed to finance it with a return of between 10 to 15% over 25 years. The labour government borrowing costs at the time were around 4% and now they are about 1%. It would have been far cheaper for the government to borrow the money. Still the NHS is safe under labour even though this is the biggest privatisation the NHS has ever seen. | |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:58 - Dec 6 with 761 views | Catullus |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:44 - Dec 6 by felixstowe_jack |
The same thing happened under labour with many news hospitals being built using PFI . The companies were allowed to finance it with a return of between 10 to 15% over 25 years. The labour government borrowing costs at the time were around 4% and now they are about 1%. It would have been far cheaper for the government to borrow the money. Still the NHS is safe under labour even though this is the biggest privatisation the NHS has ever seen. |
Exactly, this is Labour committing Wales to a massive cost when maybe it could be a lot cheaper. The Senedd committing to a cost possibly worse value than the M4 relief road. I thought they'd learned that PFI, for that's what it really is, is a massive scandal, a huge waste of money.
I'd be interested to know who in the Senedd recommends this MIM scheme and who supports it and if there are any links to the firm supplying the "Private service"
Hey Trampie, Kilkenny, is this the Senedd doing Wales proud or just a massive waste? | |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 17:46 - Dec 6 with 709 views | majorraglan |
PFI is not good news and should be consigned to the scrap heap, unfortunately it was brought in to address years of underinvesting, boost the economy and endure compliance with regards to fiscal. Drakers would have been better off keeping the toll n the Severn crossing but making it cheaper and using the money to pay for this work or an M4 relief road.
It’s mental doing it on PFI, unless they aren’t allowed to borrow the money. | | | |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 18:28 - Dec 6 with 698 views | 9MilesHigh |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:44 - Dec 6 by felixstowe_jack |
The same thing happened under labour with many news hospitals being built using PFI . The companies were allowed to finance it with a return of between 10 to 15% over 25 years. The labour government borrowing costs at the time were around 4% and now they are about 1%. It would have been far cheaper for the government to borrow the money. Still the NHS is safe under labour even though this is the biggest privatisation the NHS has ever seen. |
Depends on your version of Labour. You're talking about a Rupert Murdoch government there. Same as what we have now mostly |  | | |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 18:56 - Dec 6 with 689 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 18:28 - Dec 6 by 9MilesHigh |
Depends on your version of Labour. You're talking about a Rupert Murdoch government there. Same as what we have now mostly |
Yes and the welsh labour government is continuing with the new version of PFI to build new roads, schools and hospitals. This will lead to increased costs as the Welsh government could borrow money at a far lower interest rate than private businesses.
I guess it is part of labour's plan to sell parts of NHS off. Shame on them. | |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 07:19 - Dec 7 with 645 views | trampie |
Off course they should do the Dowlais to Hirwaun road before the M4 relief road, the Cardiff area has had more than enough money spent on it. |  |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:22 - Dec 7 with 622 views | Catullus |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 07:19 - Dec 7 by trampie |
Off course they should do the Dowlais to Hirwaun road before the M4 relief road, the Cardiff area has had more than enough money spent on it. |
Who said they shouldn't do the road. It's about how they fund it.
I guess you didn't understand the post eh Trampie? Or is it you just cannot bring yourself to be critical of the Senedd no matter what?
I'm sorry if that question is too difficult for you to understand  | |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:25 - Dec 7 with 618 views | trampie |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:22 - Dec 7 by Catullus |
Who said they shouldn't do the road. It's about how they fund it.
I guess you didn't understand the post eh Trampie? Or is it you just cannot bring yourself to be critical of the Senedd no matter what?
I'm sorry if that question is too difficult for you to understand |
They should do it before the M4 Cardiff-Newport thing.
How do you want them to fund it ? | |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:49 - Dec 7 with 608 views | Catullus |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:25 - Dec 7 by trampie |
They should do it before the M4 Cardiff-Newport thing.
How do you want them to fund it ? |
Again it's not about doing it before or after anything, it's about how it's funded.
I would want them to fund it in the cheapest way possible not by using a PFI scheme which will, in the end, cost over 1.14 billion when building the road is priced at 590 million. They could borrow the money more cheaply elsewhere.
I wouldn't have thought you'd be a fan of PFI/MIM but then, it's the Senedd! | |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:51 - Dec 7 with 605 views | trampie |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:49 - Dec 7 by Catullus |
Again it's not about doing it before or after anything, it's about how it's funded.
I would want them to fund it in the cheapest way possible not by using a PFI scheme which will, in the end, cost over 1.14 billion when building the road is priced at 590 million. They could borrow the money more cheaply elsewhere.
I wouldn't have thought you'd be a fan of PFI/MIM but then, it's the Senedd! |
Never heard of PFI or MIM so I don't support them, I don't get into debt so don't know these terms or how they work. | |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 18:01 - Dec 7 with 556 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:51 - Dec 7 by trampie |
Never heard of PFI or MIM so I don't support them, I don't get into debt so don't know these terms or how they work. |
They only need to spend half the money allocated for M4 . | |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 19:22 - Dec 7 with 542 views | Catullus |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:51 - Dec 7 by trampie |
Never heard of PFI or MIM so I don't support them, I don't get into debt so don't know these terms or how they work. |
You talk a lot about politics but you don't kno about PFI?
If I could be bothered I have a look to see what you said about the red tory Blair and his NHS spending, much of which was PFI.
I suppose it's easier to be ideological if you are ignorant of the facts. | |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 20:13 - Dec 7 with 532 views | trampie |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 19:22 - Dec 7 by Catullus |
You talk a lot about politics but you don't kno about PFI?
If I could be bothered I have a look to see what you said about the red tory Blair and his NHS spending, much of which was PFI.
I suppose it's easier to be ideological if you are ignorant of the facts. |
I haven't said anything about Tony Blair and NHS spending, is PFI what everyone who had taken out loans was claiming back from catalogues and banks ? | |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 22:30 - Dec 7 with 524 views | AnotherJohn |
One surprising fact is that the SNP has used PFI much more than the other devolved governments, and seems at least as keen on public-private partnerships for infrastructure and NHS projects as England. This was the subject of a recent and highly critical Audit Scotland report
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/28/watchdogs-say-scottish-pfi-sche
Scotland introduced the term the Non-Profit Distributing (NPD) model as window dressing to make infrastructure investment partnerships with the private sector seem more attractive, but this too seems to have saddled the Scottish Government with more debt than would have accrued through direct public funding.
Wales had been much less keen on PFI, but the MIM unveiled by the Welsh Government in 2017 may well have been influenced by this Scottish approach. Indeed last year Scotland switched from the language of NPD to MIM.
https://commonweal.scot/sites/default/files/2019-11/MIM%20Model_0.pdf
I haven't been keen on SNP policies since the days when they came to be known as the "Tartan Tories", and I am dismayed that our Government seems to be borrowing some of their ideas. WG needs to take a long hard look at what Audit Scotland found regarding where schemes like this lead. [Post edited 7 Dec 2020 22:36]
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 23:28 - Dec 7 with 510 views | Kilkennyjack |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 10:58 - Dec 6 by Catullus |
Exactly, this is Labour committing Wales to a massive cost when maybe it could be a lot cheaper. The Senedd committing to a cost possibly worse value than the M4 relief road. I thought they'd learned that PFI, for that's what it really is, is a massive scandal, a huge waste of money.
I'd be interested to know who in the Senedd recommends this MIM scheme and who supports it and if there are any links to the firm supplying the "Private service"
Hey Trampie, Kilkenny, is this the Senedd doing Wales proud or just a massive waste? |
I am against all PFI deals, poor value for money.
I am also against nuclear weapons so the uk could save itself £205 billion by cancelling Trident Replacement.
I am also against HS2. With Westminster pigeonholing HS2 as an England and Wales project, it means Wales won’t receive full Barnett consequential payments and will lose out on £5 billion of funding. This is a huge sum of money that could be used to rebuild and revitalise Welsh transport infrastructure. It would more than pay for the costs of a north-south Wales link and would help build the infrastructure for our low carbon future
Lots of money available then ....without the need for any PFI.
Politics is about choices. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 08:15 - Dec 8 with 476 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 23:28 - Dec 7 by Kilkennyjack |
I am against all PFI deals, poor value for money.
I am also against nuclear weapons so the uk could save itself £205 billion by cancelling Trident Replacement.
I am also against HS2. With Westminster pigeonholing HS2 as an England and Wales project, it means Wales won’t receive full Barnett consequential payments and will lose out on £5 billion of funding. This is a huge sum of money that could be used to rebuild and revitalise Welsh transport infrastructure. It would more than pay for the costs of a north-south Wales link and would help build the infrastructure for our low carbon future
Lots of money available then ....without the need for any PFI.
Politics is about choices. |
Any chance you will respond to my questions as to why the ROi foriegn aid budget is so much smaller than the generous UK? | |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 09:26 - Dec 8 with 468 views | Catullus |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 23:28 - Dec 7 by Kilkennyjack |
I am against all PFI deals, poor value for money.
I am also against nuclear weapons so the uk could save itself £205 billion by cancelling Trident Replacement.
I am also against HS2. With Westminster pigeonholing HS2 as an England and Wales project, it means Wales won’t receive full Barnett consequential payments and will lose out on £5 billion of funding. This is a huge sum of money that could be used to rebuild and revitalise Welsh transport infrastructure. It would more than pay for the costs of a north-south Wales link and would help build the infrastructure for our low carbon future
Lots of money available then ....without the need for any PFI.
Politics is about choices. |
And in a rare moment I find myself 100% in agreement.
Trident, HS2 and this new MIM (which is PFI by another name) are all a massive waste of badly needed money.
I have to ask, does the Senedd think Welsh people so thick that we cannot see what MIM really is? Do they think we'll not look and see what a massive waste of money they are inflicting on Wales? Or do they just not care? | |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 13:43 - Dec 8 with 452 views | Kilkennyjack |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 09:26 - Dec 8 by Catullus |
And in a rare moment I find myself 100% in agreement.
Trident, HS2 and this new MIM (which is PFI by another name) are all a massive waste of badly needed money.
I have to ask, does the Senedd think Welsh people so thick that we cannot see what MIM really is? Do they think we'll not look and see what a massive waste of money they are inflicting on Wales? Or do they just not care? |
I appreciate your kind words .... ✌🾠| |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 13:45 - Dec 8 with 451 views | Kilkennyjack |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 08:15 - Dec 8 by felixstowe_jack |
Any chance you will respond to my questions as to why the ROi foriegn aid budget is so much smaller than the generous UK? |
Nobody is interested.
I include myself.
I have no idea ... 🤷â€â™‚ï¸ | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 13:55 - Dec 8 with 442 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The Mutual Invetment Model on 13:45 - Dec 8 by Kilkennyjack |
Nobody is interested.
I include myself.
I have no idea ... 🤷â€â™‚ï¸ |
Thanks at least a reply even if you don't care why Ireland does not give enough aid to the third world. | |
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| The Mutual Invetment Model on 18:29 - Dec 8 with 410 views | BillyChong |
11 miles of road for £1 billion quid is still better value for money than some of the PPE Hancock sourced for a lot of money. But yeah there must be better ways of securing funding than PFI. | | | |
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