| COVID death count on 13:16 - Feb 20 with 1382 views | Whiterockin |
I think there are many in that total who would have sadly passed away as a matter of course anyway. People who had a terminal illness and similar. The true gauge needs to be the total over and above the annual average. |  | |  |
| COVID death count on 13:22 - Feb 20 with 1372 views | Catullus |
Whatever method they use has it's flaws. Here in Wales the death count is higher than the official figure because they don't count people who died at home. When the officlal figure passed 5000 the real figure was over 6000 apparently.
Now why would the Senedd do that? Is it the same in England or elsehwere in the UK? If so then many more people have died than we are told. |  |
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| COVID death count on 13:23 - Feb 20 with 1362 views | exhmrc1 |
There are different ways of recording deaths.
PHW and PHE use deaths within 28 days of a positive test.
ONS use figures based on whether the doctor suspects there might have been covid involvement so the doctor would have shown covid and COPD on the death certificate as causes of death hence many of the cases shown might not have actually had covid. This is highlighted on another thread where Scotia keeps including cases like this rather than actual positive tests. The ONS cases could be several months after and because someone had COVID months ago it will be shown on the death certificate even though what actually caused the death might be something totally different like COPD or Dementia. | | | |
| COVID death count on 13:23 - Feb 20 with 1371 views | controversial_jack |
There's something dodgy about that, because unless covid is a contributory factor it's not recorded as covid | | | |
| COVID death count on 13:29 - Feb 20 with 1348 views | exhmrc1 |
| COVID death count on 13:23 - Feb 20 by controversial_jack |
There's something dodgy about that, because unless covid is a contributory factor it's not recorded as covid |
The problem is the ONS figures are based on suspected cases not where there has been a positive test. ONS themselves believe 17% of their cases are not actually where covid has caused the death | | | |
| COVID death count on 14:11 - Feb 20 with 1333 views | controversial_jack |
| COVID death count on 13:29 - Feb 20 by exhmrc1 |
The problem is the ONS figures are based on suspected cases not where there has been a positive test. ONS themselves believe 17% of their cases are not actually where covid has caused the death |
It wouldn't be entered onto the death certificate though | | | |
| COVID death count on 14:36 - Feb 20 with 1316 views | exhmrc1 |
| COVID death count on 14:11 - Feb 20 by controversial_jack |
It wouldn't be entered onto the death certificate though |
It is included on the death certificate if it is ASSUMED to be a cause of the death. ONS figures include these figures but the PHW doesnt which is why the government uses the figures for deaths within 28 days of a POSITIVE test.
World Health Organisation guidelines state that “COVID-19 should be recorded on the medical certificate of cause of death for ALL decedents where the disease, or is ASSUMED to have caused, or contributed to death, i.e. COVID-19 is the underlying cause of death | | | |
| COVID death count on 15:13 - Feb 20 with 1296 views | majorraglan |
It’s not straight forward and there are several ways to record deaths and lots of countries have their own rules and regulations.
The Government stats are mainly calculated on the 28 day rule, live for 29 days and it’s not counted. If a doctor thinks Covid is a factor they can enter it in the death certificate regardless of test results, but it’s not scientific - there was a fuss last year about a direction given to doctors about not including covid on death certificates as there were fears the numbers would be managed down.
Excess deaths may be the only true way to establish the extent of the impact covid has had. [Post edited 20 Feb 2021 15:13]
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| COVID death count on 16:29 - Feb 20 with 1265 views | Dr_Winston |
There's no real surprise here. I've said before, but I know of three cases where Covid was listed as the cause of death and it wasn't.
It's not as if you can use excess deaths as a decent indicator either, as how many people have died because they didn't receive the treatment they needed when everything was cancelled for Covid reasons? |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| COVID death count on 18:31 - Feb 20 with 1227 views | Kilkennyjack |
| COVID death count on 13:16 - Feb 20 by Whiterockin |
I think there are many in that total who would have sadly passed away as a matter of course anyway. People who had a terminal illness and similar. The true gauge needs to be the total over and above the annual average. |
What ?
They died when they died because of Covid then....?
We all die some day. |  |
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| COVID death count on 18:49 - Feb 20 with 1219 views | Whiterockin |
| COVID death count on 18:31 - Feb 20 by Kilkennyjack |
What ?
They died when they died because of Covid then....?
We all die some day. |
I know of several people who had very little time to live because of their terminal illness and were in hospital. They caught covid and died. Should these really be counted as covid cause of death. | | | |
| COVID death count on 19:05 - Feb 20 with 1197 views | exhmrc1 |
| COVID death count on 15:13 - Feb 20 by majorraglan |
It’s not straight forward and there are several ways to record deaths and lots of countries have their own rules and regulations.
The Government stats are mainly calculated on the 28 day rule, live for 29 days and it’s not counted. If a doctor thinks Covid is a factor they can enter it in the death certificate regardless of test results, but it’s not scientific - there was a fuss last year about a direction given to doctors about not including covid on death certificates as there were fears the numbers would be managed down.
Excess deaths may be the only true way to establish the extent of the impact covid has had. [Post edited 20 Feb 2021 15:13]
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The only accurate way is to count cases where there has been a positive test and as currently death within 28 days of the test. That is the most accurate method. Using suspected cases is a nonsense. | | | |
| COVID death count on 21:58 - Feb 20 with 1172 views | Kilkennyjack |
| COVID death count on 18:49 - Feb 20 by Whiterockin |
I know of several people who had very little time to live because of their terminal illness and were in hospital. They caught covid and died. Should these really be counted as covid cause of death. |
Yes covid killed them | |
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| COVID death count on 22:12 - Feb 20 with 1163 views | Scotia |
| COVID death count on 19:05 - Feb 20 by exhmrc1 |
The only accurate way is to count cases where there has been a positive test and as currently death within 28 days of the test. That is the most accurate method. Using suspected cases is a nonsense. |
Are you serious?
You accused Boris of fiddling the figures when he did exactly that. | | | |
| COVID death count on 22:20 - Feb 20 with 1159 views | Scotia |
| COVID death count on 18:49 - Feb 20 by Whiterockin |
I know of several people who had very little time to live because of their terminal illness and were in hospital. They caught covid and died. Should these really be counted as covid cause of death. |
This is a genuine issue. I've got Dr friends who've told me exactly this.
How many people would have died at exactly the same time anyway? We don't know. It's impossible really to measure.
How many people die of covid 29 days after their last test and don't count in the figures?
How many asymptomatic people test positive and die as a result of an accident within 28 days ?
The only real way to evaluate is to look at excess deaths and that clearly shows there's a massive problem. | | | |
| COVID death count on 22:21 - Feb 20 with 1158 views | BillyChong |
4 generations in one home for Xmas? Was that a good idea? Also, the article states that the last or 4th Covid test offered was refused so they don’t know if he had Covid or not. | | | |
| COVID death count on 22:33 - Feb 20 with 1139 views | exhmrc1 |
| COVID death count on 22:12 - Feb 20 by Scotia |
Are you serious?
You accused Boris of fiddling the figures when he did exactly that. |
Your mate Johnson fiddled the figures because they were looking too high. Even after that the death rate is still far higher in England. England 188.6 Wales 165.6
By the way the figures that you have been using for months to try and show Wales was doing worse show today that Wales has less cases from the beginning of the pandemic than England does Wales 6386.3 England 6390.4 and is going to widen further.
Your efforts to portray Drakeford as the person leading a country with more deaths and cases is falling apart. Add to that Wales has higher rates of first and second doses of vaccination and it appears Drakeford is doing far better than you try to portray.
Take a look at the map on this article. The vast majority of counties are blue and below the English average. Yet another plus for the guy you and others here are only too pleased to criticise whatever the facts.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52380643 | | | |
| COVID death count on 22:57 - Feb 20 with 1131 views | Scotia |
| COVID death count on 22:33 - Feb 20 by exhmrc1 |
Your mate Johnson fiddled the figures because they were looking too high. Even after that the death rate is still far higher in England. England 188.6 Wales 165.6
By the way the figures that you have been using for months to try and show Wales was doing worse show today that Wales has less cases from the beginning of the pandemic than England does Wales 6386.3 England 6390.4 and is going to widen further.
Your efforts to portray Drakeford as the person leading a country with more deaths and cases is falling apart. Add to that Wales has higher rates of first and second doses of vaccination and it appears Drakeford is doing far better than you try to portray.
Take a look at the map on this article. The vast majority of counties are blue and below the English average. Yet another plus for the guy you and others here are only too pleased to criticise whatever the facts.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52380643 |
So my mate Johnson (who I can't stand by the way) fiddled the figures, but the leader of your cult who used exactly the same figures, for longer, didn't?
Do you want me to copy your posts in to this thread?
As I've said before. In November the 70% more infectious variant accounted for 80% of cases in SE England when it was barely in Wales. That is the reason for England being in a worse state than Wales, not Drakeford. Thank god it didn't get a foot hold here after Drakeford's post firebreak free for all. That is a fact.
Wales also has a vastly higher death and infection rate than Northern Ireland and Scotland, but you want to turn it into a Wales v England or Labour v Tory scenario? Why? I just expect better.
Either admit you are wrong or counter my points. At the moment you are just waffling. You're waffling because I am right. | | | |
| COVID death count on 23:05 - Feb 20 with 1128 views | Jack123 |
Lets face it the covid death count, is absolute toffee,
No wonder people are shying away from the vaccination, when even the government lie, time and time again.
3 weeks to flatten the curve they said.. Year later we are in the same boat!
Rule of six, bubbles, tier 1 2 3 4 , enough is enough.. |  |
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| COVID death count on 05:45 - Feb 21 with 1083 views | exhmrc1 |
| COVID death count on 22:57 - Feb 20 by Scotia |
So my mate Johnson (who I can't stand by the way) fiddled the figures, but the leader of your cult who used exactly the same figures, for longer, didn't?
Do you want me to copy your posts in to this thread?
As I've said before. In November the 70% more infectious variant accounted for 80% of cases in SE England when it was barely in Wales. That is the reason for England being in a worse state than Wales, not Drakeford. Thank god it didn't get a foot hold here after Drakeford's post firebreak free for all. That is a fact.
Wales also has a vastly higher death and infection rate than Northern Ireland and Scotland, but you want to turn it into a Wales v England or Labour v Tory scenario? Why? I just expect better.
Either admit you are wrong or counter my points. At the moment you are just waffling. You're waffling because I am right. |
In an article on 14 December Matt Hancock had told MPs that the new strain had spread to 60 counties. It was also in Wales. Drakeford locked down from 20 December. Johnson didnt until after Christmas and that was the reason for the increase not just down to the Kent virus. Johnson knew about about it but still failed to act. He blamed it on Kent but it had spread elsewhere before he came out of his firebreak
A new variant of coronavirus has been found which is growing faster in some parts of England, MPs have been told.
Health Secretary Matt Hancock said at least 60 different local authorities had recorded Covid infections caused by the new variant.
Here is another article from 22 December showing cases in 6 different places in Wales compared to 45 in England. A far greater amount pro rata in Wales
Where is the new Covid variant in the UK?
The new Covid-19 variant has been found in at least 57 different locations across the UK.
Scientists are using genome sequencing to detect the virus in a sample of positive Covid-19 tests.
The B.1.1.7 strain, also known as VUI-202012/01, has now been detected in samples taken at 45 places in England, six in Scotland and six in Wales. [Post edited 21 Feb 2021 5:51]
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| COVID death count on 06:35 - Feb 21 with 1066 views | exhmrc1 |
There is far more to death rates in Wales than just blaming Drakeford. There are 4 authorities with very large rates of death. They are adjoining areas and largely valley communities. Rhondda Cynon Taff, Merthyr Tydfil, Bridgend and Neath Port Talbot. It might be down to poverty but it certainly is down to closeness of the society. As an example compare Neath Port Talbot with a death rate of 307.7 compared to Swansea 234.8 or even more so Rhondda Cynon Taff 347.3 compared to Cardiff 213.1 or Vale of Glamorgan 205.1. These are neighbouring authorities with differences in death rates.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/people-valleys-highest-covid-death | | | |
| COVID death count on 08:32 - Feb 21 with 1045 views | Dr_Winston |
From Mar - Jun 2020 (the only official stats I can find) there were 4,476 Covid fatalities with no underlying health conditions, approximately 10% of the total at the time. If you take that percentage as a general rule then the figure of deaths from Covid and only Covid would be less than 15,000. Obviously it's more complex than that, but it does point towards the "120,000 dead from Covid!" headlines being inaccurate at best, irresponsible fear mongering at worst.
Perhaps a better way of doing it would be to publish two figures. One where Covid was the only cause of death and one where Covid may have been a contributory factor. In any case, a positive test result must be a pre-requisite. At one point (may still be judging by the OP) official guidance allowed Covid to be entered on a death cert without one, which is a nonsense. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| COVID death count on 10:58 - Feb 21 with 1006 views | Scotia |
| COVID death count on 08:32 - Feb 21 by Dr_Winston |
From Mar - Jun 2020 (the only official stats I can find) there were 4,476 Covid fatalities with no underlying health conditions, approximately 10% of the total at the time. If you take that percentage as a general rule then the figure of deaths from Covid and only Covid would be less than 15,000. Obviously it's more complex than that, but it does point towards the "120,000 dead from Covid!" headlines being inaccurate at best, irresponsible fear mongering at worst.
Perhaps a better way of doing it would be to publish two figures. One where Covid was the only cause of death and one where Covid may have been a contributory factor. In any case, a positive test result must be a pre-requisite. At one point (may still be judging by the OP) official guidance allowed Covid to be entered on a death cert without one, which is a nonsense. |
The underlying health conditions are very misleading.
It's rare for a death certificate to only have one cause of death, and many health conditions will have been amplified by Covid.
For instance somebody with diabetes can live for many years, but 20% of diabetics who need hospital treatment with covid die. They died from covid in the vast majority of cases.
120000 dying directly from covid is probably a bit high, but most of those would still be here if they hadn't caught the virus. | | | |
| COVID death count on 17:16 - Feb 23 with 866 views | felixstowe_jack |
Latest death rates released today
Deaths since start of pandemic
Wales 228 per 100,000
England 207
Scotland 165
NI 141
New cases yesterday
England 7292 % of positive tests 1.13%
Scotland 655 4.8%
Wales 317 5.03%
NI 225 3.07% | |
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| COVID death count on 18:07 - Feb 23 with 851 views | Kilkennyjack |
| COVID death count on 06:35 - Feb 21 by exhmrc1 |
There is far more to death rates in Wales than just blaming Drakeford. There are 4 authorities with very large rates of death. They are adjoining areas and largely valley communities. Rhondda Cynon Taff, Merthyr Tydfil, Bridgend and Neath Port Talbot. It might be down to poverty but it certainly is down to closeness of the society. As an example compare Neath Port Talbot with a death rate of 307.7 compared to Swansea 234.8 or even more so Rhondda Cynon Taff 347.3 compared to Cardiff 213.1 or Vale of Glamorgan 205.1. These are neighbouring authorities with differences in death rates.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/people-valleys-highest-covid-death |
Poverty is a killer. | |
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