| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss 23:29 - Nov 14 with 17727 views | QPR_John |
Labour have just announced free broadband for all implemented by nationalising part of BT. Just to be fair I do have an interest as I have BT shares bought through a sharesave scheme when I worked for them and also a pension from BT. Am I one of the rich Corbyn is after? [Post edited 14 Nov 2019 23:30]
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| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:21 - Nov 15 with 1464 views | StanFan |
There are 2 sides to this.
Should private companies/individuals make money out of utilities which are basically public services/monopolies? Ideally no.
Can we expect publicly-run companies to actually improve services or value for us and/or provide profits to invest in public services? This certainly wasn't what happened when they were in public ownership before and I don't think it would be very different if we tried it again. These types of policies look great in theory but are hard to make work. |  | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:22 - Nov 15 with 1457 views | Ned_Kennedys |
Using public transport is a bit pricey for everyone, especially the working man. Perhaps Momentum Labour will make that free for everyone next?
Heads in the clouds and no access to a calculator that works properly. |  | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:33 - Nov 15 with 1430 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:22 - Nov 15 by Ned_Kennedys |
Using public transport is a bit pricey for everyone, especially the working man. Perhaps Momentum Labour will make that free for everyone next?
Heads in the clouds and no access to a calculator that works properly. |
Skipping past the snideness, why shouldn’t public transport be free if it can be done? It already happens in some places.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/05/luxembourg-to-become-first-country |  | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:37 - Nov 15 with 1417 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
Your PornHub subscription will be fine Steve.
That's a bit snide... |  |
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| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:38 - Nov 15 with 1415 views | The_Seer |
Poor old Corbyn is doing what Corbyn does best and that is to promise everything for free without actually showing how much it will cost and who will be paying for it.
He is doing everthing he can to steer the election away from being a Brexit election. He knows very well that in regards to Brexit out of all the main parties, Labour's support is the most divided.
Don't worry your shares are safe. | | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:38 - Nov 15 with 1415 views | QPR_John |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 08:52 - Nov 15 by CiderwithRsie |
Some odd stuff on here.
1. A state-owned body installing broadband doesn't control the internet. My internet isn't controlled by QPR_John and his other shareholders just because BT Openreach put in the cables (though it's their fault when the bastard thing goes down or runs at the speed of the BFG)
2. How does nationalising BT Openreach give the NHS any money? (Let alone actual staff)? |
How do you access the internet if through an ISP they control what you can access. Are you not slightly worried that the government will be your ISP | | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:40 - Nov 15 with 1406 views | QPR_John |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 08:57 - Nov 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
The profits currently going into QPR_John’s pocket can be spent on anything else the taxpayer wishes, including the NHS.
BT open reach made a pre tax profit of £2.6 billion last year. £2.6 billion! [Post edited 15 Nov 2019 9:00]
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You''re right why should I make a profit. In fact why should anybody make a profit welcome to the brave new world | | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:42 - Nov 15 with 1405 views | The_Seer |
The Left (with a communist as leader) controlling the internet. I don't like the sound of that... | | | |
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| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:45 - Nov 15 with 1401 views | QPR_John |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 10:42 - Nov 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
It’s only one part of BT (Openreach) that is actually being nationalised so wouldn’t affect those providers very much. Those providers already pay BT for this service anyway. They would just be paying the state (You) instead. [Post edited 15 Nov 2019 10:49]
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They pay for the service but then they charge their customers. If they cannot charge for the service they will not pay "Openreach" and simply withdraw from the business leaving the government as sole provider. | | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:46 - Nov 15 with 1399 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:40 - Nov 15 by QPR_John |
You''re right why should I make a profit. In fact why should anybody make a profit welcome to the brave new world |
Well presuming you arn’t a major shareholder , the £6 per annum dividend you receive is smaller than the £360 you’ll save per annum. | | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:49 - Nov 15 with 1386 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:42 - Nov 15 by The_Seer |
The Left (with a communist as leader) controlling the internet. I don't like the sound of that... |
Don’t spoil it, we’re not announcing Digital Gulags until tomorrow. | | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:49 - Nov 15 with 1382 views | ridethewave |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 08:57 - Nov 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
The profits currently going into QPR_John’s pocket can be spent on anything else the taxpayer wishes, including the NHS.
BT open reach made a pre tax profit of £2.6 billion last year. £2.6 billion! [Post edited 15 Nov 2019 9:00]
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You realise that by giving the internet away for free, they won't be making that profit. Plus they have a multi-billion pension deficit , which the government (taxpayer) will need to fund if owned by the state.
All this not mentioning as well, that they have openly said they will not pay the market price for these shares, thereby costing every shareholder (including £billions from UK pensions) huge sums. And no, they can't single out specific shareholders (pensions) for protection like they suggest, this is simply not legal.
Ignoring as well, the impact on job losses from other providers who will inevitably go out of business from government crowding out the private sector.
Another fantasy policy I'm afraid. |  | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:55 - Nov 15 with 1361 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:49 - Nov 15 by ridethewave |
You realise that by giving the internet away for free, they won't be making that profit. Plus they have a multi-billion pension deficit , which the government (taxpayer) will need to fund if owned by the state.
All this not mentioning as well, that they have openly said they will not pay the market price for these shares, thereby costing every shareholder (including £billions from UK pensions) huge sums. And no, they can't single out specific shareholders (pensions) for protection like they suggest, this is simply not legal.
Ignoring as well, the impact on job losses from other providers who will inevitably go out of business from government crowding out the private sector.
Another fantasy policy I'm afraid. |
The legality, feasibility, and cost of this entire policy has been confirmed fully.
https://labour.org.uk/press/british-broadband-labour-sets-out-mission-to-connect | | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:55 - Nov 15 with 1360 views | QPR_John |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:46 - Nov 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Well presuming you arn’t a major shareholder , the £6 per annum dividend you receive is smaller than the £360 you’ll save per annum. |
Of course it is none of your business but I do get slightly more than £6 per year and I am not a major shareholder | | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 13:00 - Nov 15 with 1354 views | ridethewave |
Two things:
Just because John Mcdonnell says it's legal, doesn't mean it is. It is a matter of fact that under EU law, this is not feasible. I can also tell you that there would be years worth of legal battles under international law from foreign owners in BT shares, so in all likelihood this policy would not be enacted before Corbyn/Mcdonnell are thrown out of parliament at the following election. And as for singling out specific shareholders for special protection, as I work in finance, I can promise you that this is certainly not in any way legal.
Second, you've ignored the other points. [Post edited 15 Nov 2019 13:02]
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| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 13:04 - Nov 15 with 1340 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:55 - Nov 15 by QPR_John |
Of course it is none of your business but I do get slightly more than £6 per year and I am not a major shareholder |
If you get more than £360 a year then yeah, I’m afraid you may be penalised, depending how the rest of BT does because your shares in them arn’t going to disappear.
However, if you do lose out, you can take solace in knowing that your kids and all the people in your life who make things comfortable for you like Police or Nurses will benefit. | | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 13:10 - Nov 15 with 1318 views | FDC |
Yeah public transport will need to be radically improved and made free or near-as in order to transition out of cars and in to a carbon-free economy. |  | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 13:10 - Nov 15 with 1317 views | stevec |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 12:18 - Nov 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Until May this year I was a civil servant for 12 years.
My company won awards for efficiency most years during that time, and I was paid significantly more than my private sector counterparts, in some cases by as much as 25%. I had 52 days holiday a year and free travel. The directors of this company were also civil servants and kept making the papers because of their huge salaries.
I left because I was bored, but have taken a job for a private organisation in which my pay and holidays are a lot less, and I pay for my commute every day.
Some of the highly trained and technical employees we had were regularly seconded to places like Hong Kong, China, Sydney, and New York to set up or maintain similar industries there. At any time they could have left to work for one of the many private companies available, but quite frankly it wasn’t worth it and most people stay until they retire.
Our Rail industry (a highly technical one) is run by the German and Dutch state right now and arn’t run out by our own ‘native’ private companies. [Post edited 15 Nov 2019 12:37]
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That's interesting Baz, so you have an insight into both the public and private side of work.
Can I ask you, considering public sector basically relies on the taxes of the private sector to pay it's salaries, is it fair that public sector employees can be earning 25% more than their private sector counterparts who's employment depends entirely on themselves and their companies making a profit to cover not only the tax take of the public sector but their very own wages?
You mention you were bored. I heard a story recently from a friend, concerning the civil service possibly from something a year or so ago. Apparently, Michael Gove criticised the civil service for having too many employees with nothing to do and too many holidays. A friend of this friend, more centre than left, expected uproar when someone mentioned this in their open plan office, then someone piped up and said 'actually, he's got a point' to which practically everyone nodded in agreement and laughed.
52 days holiday would be something no one in the private sector could ever dream of. I know many in the Civil Service get an extra hours holiday added for every hour of overtime they work. Be fair, this is insane. It's not wonder the public sector is constantly straining under whichever government are in power, Tory or Labour.
My son told me recently that many of his age group coming out of University with good degrees, initially go into the private sector, realise that the work and effort required only produces a modest salary and are now jumping into the civil service where, as you say, the salaries and holidays outweigh anything the private sector equivalent can offer.
Somebody, somewhere still has to pay for this ever mounting crippling public sector bill.
It is also crazy, and quite sad actually, constantly painting the private sector as the villains, an area where 'staying until you retire' isn't even an option of choice.
Not a criticism of you mate, admire the fact you were willing to move out of it for a lesser salary, but surely you must see the potential dangers of Corbyn policy. |  | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 13:14 - Nov 15 with 1299 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 13:00 - Nov 15 by ridethewave |
Two things:
Just because John Mcdonnell says it's legal, doesn't mean it is. It is a matter of fact that under EU law, this is not feasible. I can also tell you that there would be years worth of legal battles under international law from foreign owners in BT shares, so in all likelihood this policy would not be enacted before Corbyn/Mcdonnell are thrown out of parliament at the following election. And as for singling out specific shareholders for special protection, as I work in finance, I can promise you that this is certainly not in any way legal.
Second, you've ignored the other points. [Post edited 15 Nov 2019 13:02]
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1) Parliament decided the price of nationalisation compensation not the market, even when the Tories have been forced to do it.
2) There will be no job losses. The jobs still need to be done. If anything this will create jobs as businesses will flourish in rural areas which were previously Broadband wastelands. By average estimates, a 10% increase in broadband availability results in 1% GDP increase in those same regions.
3) Yeah it is possible this won’t happen fully if you throw out Labour in five years time, but that’s the nature of democracy I guess. However the government which is most comparable to the one Labour wants is currently flying and has a economy that is growing: https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2018/03/europe-s-socialist-success-story-stra | | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 13:18 - Nov 15 with 1273 views | R_from_afar |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 09:07 - Nov 15 by BuckR |
Yes if the cost is what Labour have calculated. However its already been said that they should be quadrupling that figure! Must have let Abbott use the abacus again |
Meanwhile, the current government has ordered a design of nuclear rector which has never been built, to be built by foreign powers, to supply power at a ludicrously high, guaranteed cost (funded by the tax payer), plus H2 is way over budget already and expected to get even costlier.... |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 13:22 - Nov 15 with 1267 views | DavieQPR |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 13:10 - Nov 15 by stevec |
That's interesting Baz, so you have an insight into both the public and private side of work.
Can I ask you, considering public sector basically relies on the taxes of the private sector to pay it's salaries, is it fair that public sector employees can be earning 25% more than their private sector counterparts who's employment depends entirely on themselves and their companies making a profit to cover not only the tax take of the public sector but their very own wages?
You mention you were bored. I heard a story recently from a friend, concerning the civil service possibly from something a year or so ago. Apparently, Michael Gove criticised the civil service for having too many employees with nothing to do and too many holidays. A friend of this friend, more centre than left, expected uproar when someone mentioned this in their open plan office, then someone piped up and said 'actually, he's got a point' to which practically everyone nodded in agreement and laughed.
52 days holiday would be something no one in the private sector could ever dream of. I know many in the Civil Service get an extra hours holiday added for every hour of overtime they work. Be fair, this is insane. It's not wonder the public sector is constantly straining under whichever government are in power, Tory or Labour.
My son told me recently that many of his age group coming out of University with good degrees, initially go into the private sector, realise that the work and effort required only produces a modest salary and are now jumping into the civil service where, as you say, the salaries and holidays outweigh anything the private sector equivalent can offer.
Somebody, somewhere still has to pay for this ever mounting crippling public sector bill.
It is also crazy, and quite sad actually, constantly painting the private sector as the villains, an area where 'staying until you retire' isn't even an option of choice.
Not a criticism of you mate, admire the fact you were willing to move out of it for a lesser salary, but surely you must see the potential dangers of Corbyn policy. |
Anther stupid ill thought out policy from the so called Labour Party. The cost of purchasing the shares and meeting Pension costs, which is paid for out of Broadband profits, would be in the region of £100m. Plus almost every Pension Fund holds shares in BT that would be devalued. Taxing Google, Amazon and E bay for this amount would not sit lightly with the US as they are all American companies. Thought that money was going to the NHS anyway. |  | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 13:28 - Nov 15 with 1255 views | ridethewave |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 13:14 - Nov 15 by BazzaInTheLoft |
1) Parliament decided the price of nationalisation compensation not the market, even when the Tories have been forced to do it.
2) There will be no job losses. The jobs still need to be done. If anything this will create jobs as businesses will flourish in rural areas which were previously Broadband wastelands. By average estimates, a 10% increase in broadband availability results in 1% GDP increase in those same regions.
3) Yeah it is possible this won’t happen fully if you throw out Labour in five years time, but that’s the nature of democracy I guess. However the government which is most comparable to the one Labour wants is currently flying and has a economy that is growing: https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2018/03/europe-s-socialist-success-story-stra |
Well on point 1, you're entirely missing the point. That parliament arbitrarily decide what price to pay for a publicly listed share, is not legal. It will be caught up in years worth of legal challenges, rendering the entire policy pointless anyway. There's actually no point in debating any of this, as such.
I suggest you read about the crowding out effect. It has never created jobs, quite the opposite. Trust me, I studied this stuff for years, which I can confidentially say Jeremy Corbny and Jon Mcdonnell haven't done.
Their cost estimates are being debunked from every commentator going, as they are not accounting for the decrease in profits resulting from giving away the very service they make a profit on for free. They are not accounting for the underfunded pension that will suddenly become the state's liability.
I won't get into a debate about Portugal, other than to say that most economists would not consider it a particular success story on a number of very key issues, and that, most importantly, our two countries are totally incomparable. We could copy and paste news articles all day long, there are plenty arguing the opposite of the one you've posted, but I'll let you read them. | | | |
| Government controlling the Internet - a good or bad thing discuss on 13:28 - Nov 15 with 1255 views | Tonto |
I don't have a problem with the government being the owner/operator of essential utilities and transport networks. Broadband/internet access is essential in modern life. I don't understand how profit could be made out of water and air.
I think the cost of "reobtaining" these needs to be examined, although that does beg the question why they were privitised in the first place.
The other issue in this would then be the on-going management of the assets. Part of the problem in the past is that they were not particularly well managed and some organisations (British Rail anyone?) were grossly inefficient and not especially accountable. but in this day and age, that should be overcome easily enough |  |
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