| Vaccine passports for sporting events? 15:28 - Mar 19 with 2536 views | Dalenet |
So the Culture Secretary has said that the Government is looking seriously on how to use a vaccine certificate and/or a rapid covid test to allow people back into sports stadiums. I guess something was inevitable.
With the youngest adults not due to have their second jab until late September it could have implications for the start of next season and the sale of season cards.
One to watch, but potential a headache to manage |  | | |  |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 16:05 - Mar 19 with 2487 views | D_Alien |
The key to any such system would need to be how to establish a non-discriminatory way of allowing access
Any proposal which excluded any particular demographic would, imo, be a huge mistake and thankfully the noises i've heard coming from government so far seem to suggest the same
This would include those who - for whatever reason - have chosen not to take up the offer of a vaccine (for non-medical reasons), except where they'd be liable to place other people in danger of transmission. If on-the-spot testing can alleviate that, then all well and good. It's a moot point as to whether vaccine refusniks would be willing to put themselves forward for testing prior to entry to a sports (or other major public) venue, when a positive test would require them to self-isolate
There's a possibility such a scheme might create more problems than it solves but as you say - a headache... hopefully no 'clots' involved |  |
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| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 17:08 - Mar 19 with 2398 views | Nigeriamark |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 16:05 - Mar 19 by D_Alien |
The key to any such system would need to be how to establish a non-discriminatory way of allowing access
Any proposal which excluded any particular demographic would, imo, be a huge mistake and thankfully the noises i've heard coming from government so far seem to suggest the same
This would include those who - for whatever reason - have chosen not to take up the offer of a vaccine (for non-medical reasons), except where they'd be liable to place other people in danger of transmission. If on-the-spot testing can alleviate that, then all well and good. It's a moot point as to whether vaccine refusniks would be willing to put themselves forward for testing prior to entry to a sports (or other major public) venue, when a positive test would require them to self-isolate
There's a possibility such a scheme might create more problems than it solves but as you say - a headache... hopefully no 'clots' involved |
Important to get sport, music hospitality etc sectors up & running ASAP. If people cannot attend an event purely because it hasn't reached their turn to get the second jab then I think they have to wish good luck to those who can go. There would not be any discrimination in this case purely a case of slow logistics.
Vaccinated v non vaccinated is another debate. I agree people have the right to chose if they want to be vaccinated or not. However do vaccinated people, who feel they have done their bit for themselves & the community, also not have the right to chose to attend an event for vaccinated only? Wouldn't matter if vaccines work 100% or if the virus is completely eliminated. Until then why should they have to take an increased risk?
Not advocating either way at this stage but can understand why people are advocating passports. They already exist in practise as most people who are vaccinated usually get a record card anyway & and have it logged in their medical records. |  | | |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 19:05 - Mar 19 with 2257 views | pioneer |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 17:08 - Mar 19 by Nigeriamark |
Important to get sport, music hospitality etc sectors up & running ASAP. If people cannot attend an event purely because it hasn't reached their turn to get the second jab then I think they have to wish good luck to those who can go. There would not be any discrimination in this case purely a case of slow logistics.
Vaccinated v non vaccinated is another debate. I agree people have the right to chose if they want to be vaccinated or not. However do vaccinated people, who feel they have done their bit for themselves & the community, also not have the right to chose to attend an event for vaccinated only? Wouldn't matter if vaccines work 100% or if the virus is completely eliminated. Until then why should they have to take an increased risk?
Not advocating either way at this stage but can understand why people are advocating passports. They already exist in practise as most people who are vaccinated usually get a record card anyway & and have it logged in their medical records. |
Australia and NZ have been having full houses at sporting events, theatres etc for months without any problems (or vaccines).
It would be a dangerous precedent to divide the population into those with and those without in this way. | | | |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 19:17 - Mar 19 with 2243 views | nordenblue |
Why is there such an obsession with literally every single person to have a vaccine to "be able to" attend sport or travel abroad etc, at the same time they still believe you can still contract and infect others anyway even having had a vaccine?
Once the vulnerable are vaccinated,as they are now apparently,why do we still all have to apparently have a vaccine for something that ultimately many of us don't even need? [Post edited 19 Mar 2021 19:20]
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| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 19:51 - Mar 19 with 2198 views | 442Dale |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 19:17 - Mar 19 by nordenblue |
Why is there such an obsession with literally every single person to have a vaccine to "be able to" attend sport or travel abroad etc, at the same time they still believe you can still contract and infect others anyway even having had a vaccine?
Once the vulnerable are vaccinated,as they are now apparently,why do we still all have to apparently have a vaccine for something that ultimately many of us don't even need? [Post edited 19 Mar 2021 19:20]
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Personal choice. The vaccine has been proven to reduce the effects of Covid, nobody has to have it same as nobody needs to take paracetamol for a headache.
Needing it for events is a different argument but also there is the chance that it also has some impact on transmission as well, so anyone who does choose to attend such events, like Spotland for example, will know they’re reducing that risk of transmission. And although some may not think there are many risks going to games in the future, some naturally will. Personal choice and empathy for how others might feel, backed by some evidence means things will hopefully become easier.
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-two-doses-of-pfizer-or-oxford-vaccine-reduce |  |
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| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 20:44 - Mar 19 with 2142 views | D_Alien |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 19:17 - Mar 19 by nordenblue |
Why is there such an obsession with literally every single person to have a vaccine to "be able to" attend sport or travel abroad etc, at the same time they still believe you can still contract and infect others anyway even having had a vaccine?
Once the vulnerable are vaccinated,as they are now apparently,why do we still all have to apparently have a vaccine for something that ultimately many of us don't even need? [Post edited 19 Mar 2021 19:20]
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Those who've been vaccinated offer greater protection to those who still haven't, with transmission reduced by about a third (that's not insignificant)
The more the virus stays in circulation, the greater the chance of further mutations, which might take us into more dangerous territory, even for those who've been vaccinated
Those in groups not deemed at high risk of hospitalisation/death can still suffer from long covid, which is debilitating and life-changing - some won't be able to earn a living, or walk without months of rehabilitation
Whether anyone needs the vaccine isn't open to question. Those who choose not to take it up shouldn't be discriminated against - they're doing a fine job of that to themselves
[Post edited 19 Mar 2021 20:47]
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| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 21:56 - Mar 19 with 2073 views | nordenblue |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 20:44 - Mar 19 by D_Alien |
Those who've been vaccinated offer greater protection to those who still haven't, with transmission reduced by about a third (that's not insignificant)
The more the virus stays in circulation, the greater the chance of further mutations, which might take us into more dangerous territory, even for those who've been vaccinated
Those in groups not deemed at high risk of hospitalisation/death can still suffer from long covid, which is debilitating and life-changing - some won't be able to earn a living, or walk without months of rehabilitation
Whether anyone needs the vaccine isn't open to question. Those who choose not to take it up shouldn't be discriminated against - they're doing a fine job of that to themselves
[Post edited 19 Mar 2021 20:47]
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If transmission is reduced by a third using them figures you can still pass it on in 66% of cases on average then, not the best of odds being twice as likely to still pass it on than not(granted some odds are better then zero.)
If its so imperative we all must have it in order to travel,dine,socialise,live etc surely its equally as important we vaccinate children too, or if not what age does the risk stop being a problem to others? | | | |
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| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 23:22 - Mar 19 with 1999 views | D_Alien |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 21:56 - Mar 19 by nordenblue |
If transmission is reduced by a third using them figures you can still pass it on in 66% of cases on average then, not the best of odds being twice as likely to still pass it on than not(granted some odds are better then zero.)
If its so imperative we all must have it in order to travel,dine,socialise,live etc surely its equally as important we vaccinate children too, or if not what age does the risk stop being a problem to others? |
It's simple epidemiology - hindering the virus from spreading and mutating; the reduction in transmission becomes multiplied (R number)
If you'd read my earlier post, it'd be clear that I'm not saying it's "imperative we all must have it to travel, dine..." etc. | |
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| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 04:08 - Mar 20 with 1927 views | Porlicks |
Trials are being carried out on children now. I imagine within a couple of months they will be given clearance to get the vaccine, again with vulnerables first.
By July/August there is going to be so much/many vaccine/s that it will be available on demand regardless of your situation.
Any mutation in the virus will come from someone unvaccinated. The idea that there are a sizeable number of people who would refuse a safe, effective vaccine against a serious and widespread disease literally Blows My Mind. |  |
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| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 05:02 - Mar 20 with 1914 views | Nigeriamark |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 19:05 - Mar 19 by pioneer |
Australia and NZ have been having full houses at sporting events, theatres etc for months without any problems (or vaccines).
It would be a dangerous precedent to divide the population into those with and those without in this way. |
because they had a different strategy which was to all but eliminate the virus before the vaccines arrived. Like I said in my post if you can do that then no need for a vaccine.
However because the rest of the world hasn't then they are still going to be stuck when it comes to anything involving outsiders coming in. I would be very surprised if they don't insist in proof of vaccination for visitors from overseas ( until the virus has gone) | | | |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 07:12 - Mar 20 with 1872 views | DaleiLama |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 04:08 - Mar 20 by Porlicks |
Trials are being carried out on children now. I imagine within a couple of months they will be given clearance to get the vaccine, again with vulnerables first.
By July/August there is going to be so much/many vaccine/s that it will be available on demand regardless of your situation.
Any mutation in the virus will come from someone unvaccinated. The idea that there are a sizeable number of people who would refuse a safe, effective vaccine against a serious and widespread disease literally Blows My Mind. |
You are using logic. Refuseniks don't have that in their arsenal. |  |
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| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 08:31 - Mar 20 with 1826 views | Dalenet |
The refuseniks might struggle with choice in the future. I saw yesterday that P&O cruises are planning summer cruises around the British Isles and you can only book if you have had both jabs and buy special insurance. Doesn't appeal to me, but it shows how travel is likely to need to change. Meanwhile I can't wait for the chance to sit back in Spotland. | | | |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 10:37 - Mar 20 with 1763 views | Nigeriamark |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 04:08 - Mar 20 by Porlicks |
Trials are being carried out on children now. I imagine within a couple of months they will be given clearance to get the vaccine, again with vulnerables first.
By July/August there is going to be so much/many vaccine/s that it will be available on demand regardless of your situation.
Any mutation in the virus will come from someone unvaccinated. The idea that there are a sizeable number of people who would refuse a safe, effective vaccine against a serious and widespread disease literally Blows My Mind. |
There is a Philosophical argument as to why some people don't take vaccines. My first job outside the UK was working in a vaccine business in Belgium (GSK). On day 1 of your training programme you discuss the difference between a medicine & a vaccine
Medicine : You take a medicine when you are sick to get better
Vaccine: You inject something into your body while you are perfectly healthy to protect yourself against something that you might not get anyway. As there is a tiny risk of harm from the vaccine is it better to take the chance on not getting the virus & so not take a vaccine
Of course after the philosophical debate there are the facts. A vaccine may kill 10 people in the UK but save 10,000 from an illness. It seems a no brainer to get vaccinated but a combination of Anti-Vax conspiracies, misinformation, Political biases, fear of needles or medicine & a host of other reasons put people off
Regarding Covid, and using the back of a fag packet principle of science
1. Estimated 15% of the population got covid & approximately 150,000 have died
2. I think more of the population has had at least 1 shot of the vaccine than got COVID ( If not it's still a lot). Although no official deaths as a direct result of the vaccine reported, I would guess there have been a few.
So Having a vaccine would seem, as with other vaccines in the past, gives you a many thousand % chance greater chance of surviving the whole COVID period, but as you say mind-blowing that a large % will chose not to do so ( in the States indications that it could be 20%+ refusing)
Funny old world!! | | | |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 12:29 - Mar 20 with 1677 views | pioneer |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 05:02 - Mar 20 by Nigeriamark |
because they had a different strategy which was to all but eliminate the virus before the vaccines arrived. Like I said in my post if you can do that then no need for a vaccine.
However because the rest of the world hasn't then they are still going to be stuck when it comes to anything involving outsiders coming in. I would be very surprised if they don't insist in proof of vaccination for visitors from overseas ( until the virus has gone) |
vaccines for international travel are not new. But vaccines for everyday activities domestically is a whole new ball game.
So its not all or nothing...we can open the economy domestically without folks who havent been vaccinated being excluded while requiring international travellers to be vaccinated. | | | |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 12:43 - Mar 20 with 1670 views | electricblue |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 10:37 - Mar 20 by Nigeriamark |
There is a Philosophical argument as to why some people don't take vaccines. My first job outside the UK was working in a vaccine business in Belgium (GSK). On day 1 of your training programme you discuss the difference between a medicine & a vaccine
Medicine : You take a medicine when you are sick to get better
Vaccine: You inject something into your body while you are perfectly healthy to protect yourself against something that you might not get anyway. As there is a tiny risk of harm from the vaccine is it better to take the chance on not getting the virus & so not take a vaccine
Of course after the philosophical debate there are the facts. A vaccine may kill 10 people in the UK but save 10,000 from an illness. It seems a no brainer to get vaccinated but a combination of Anti-Vax conspiracies, misinformation, Political biases, fear of needles or medicine & a host of other reasons put people off
Regarding Covid, and using the back of a fag packet principle of science
1. Estimated 15% of the population got covid & approximately 150,000 have died
2. I think more of the population has had at least 1 shot of the vaccine than got COVID ( If not it's still a lot). Although no official deaths as a direct result of the vaccine reported, I would guess there have been a few.
So Having a vaccine would seem, as with other vaccines in the past, gives you a many thousand % chance greater chance of surviving the whole COVID period, but as you say mind-blowing that a large % will chose not to do so ( in the States indications that it could be 20%+ refusing)
Funny old world!! |
In my view and me n the missus have had the first astra zeneca jab you only have to look at europe where they have dithered in buying the vaccines wheres the our government jumped onto it straight away....
Vaccinating is the only way in my opinion you only have to look at the stats within the age groups and the vulnerable are not in hospital.
There is a slight % less of that wave in the EU hitting the UK hard and for that we need people to been vaccinated in the UK..
Hell why wouldnt you not want to!
Then there is the supply shortage from India which is another story...
And then there is the likelyhood of an annual booster jab.......
This virus isnt going away..
As for the original topic, yes vaccine passports or whatever maybe required and im for it..... [Post edited 20 Mar 2021 12:44]
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| My all time favourite Dale player Mr Lyndon Symmonds |
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| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 13:06 - Mar 20 with 1644 views | D_Alien |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 12:29 - Mar 20 by pioneer |
vaccines for international travel are not new. But vaccines for everyday activities domestically is a whole new ball game.
So its not all or nothing...we can open the economy domestically without folks who havent been vaccinated being excluded while requiring international travellers to be vaccinated. |
That's fair enough, but as others have posted, individual businesses are making their own decisions on whether to exclude the non-vaccinated. I hope there's no move on the part of government to prevent them from doing so. It's one thing for the state to set up its own scheme but imo it'd be ill-advised to prevent others from doing so (there's no suggestion they might, but still...)
Punters can then vote with their feet. Those who've been vaccinated mightn't want to mix with the unvaccinated, in which event businesses may have to implement exclusion measures or see their footfall diminish. I suppose it depends which demographic they're after
[Post edited 20 Mar 2021 13:10]
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| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 13:55 - Mar 20 with 1594 views | 49thseason |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 13:06 - Mar 20 by D_Alien |
That's fair enough, but as others have posted, individual businesses are making their own decisions on whether to exclude the non-vaccinated. I hope there's no move on the part of government to prevent them from doing so. It's one thing for the state to set up its own scheme but imo it'd be ill-advised to prevent others from doing so (there's no suggestion they might, but still...)
Punters can then vote with their feet. Those who've been vaccinated mightn't want to mix with the unvaccinated, in which event businesses may have to implement exclusion measures or see their footfall diminish. I suppose it depends which demographic they're after
[Post edited 20 Mar 2021 13:10]
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"Individual businesses are making their own decisions on whether to exclude the non-vaccinated. I hope there's no move on the part of government to prevent them from doing so".
So when did businesses get the green light to discriminate against employees who either decline or may not be suitable candidates for vaccination?
That looks to me like an open invitation for constructive dismissal cases. What right does any employer have to the details of your medical record? None at all I would venture. And where does this notion end? Will it be OK to ask younger female staff if they are using oral contraceptives? Or other staff if they have mental conditions or maybe their Gay staff if they have Aids? What happens when someone says "OK I will have the vax at your insistance rather than lose my job, but I need you to agree that a) you are threatening to sack me and that b) if it affects my ability to work in future, you have adequate insurance to cover my medical bills and pension for the rest of my life. I will need a full medical examination now to set a health base line, at your expense of course". |  | | |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 14:04 - Mar 20 with 1581 views | D_Alien |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 13:55 - Mar 20 by 49thseason |
"Individual businesses are making their own decisions on whether to exclude the non-vaccinated. I hope there's no move on the part of government to prevent them from doing so".
So when did businesses get the green light to discriminate against employees who either decline or may not be suitable candidates for vaccination?
That looks to me like an open invitation for constructive dismissal cases. What right does any employer have to the details of your medical record? None at all I would venture. And where does this notion end? Will it be OK to ask younger female staff if they are using oral contraceptives? Or other staff if they have mental conditions or maybe their Gay staff if they have Aids? What happens when someone says "OK I will have the vax at your insistance rather than lose my job, but I need you to agree that a) you are threatening to sack me and that b) if it affects my ability to work in future, you have adequate insurance to cover my medical bills and pension for the rest of my life. I will need a full medical examination now to set a health base line, at your expense of course". |
I was referring to customers, not employees, which if you'd read my post would've been obvious | |
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| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 14:33 - Mar 20 with 1518 views | Porlicks |
| Vaccine passports for sporting events? on 13:55 - Mar 20 by 49thseason |
"Individual businesses are making their own decisions on whether to exclude the non-vaccinated. I hope there's no move on the part of government to prevent them from doing so".
So when did businesses get the green light to discriminate against employees who either decline or may not be suitable candidates for vaccination?
That looks to me like an open invitation for constructive dismissal cases. What right does any employer have to the details of your medical record? None at all I would venture. And where does this notion end? Will it be OK to ask younger female staff if they are using oral contraceptives? Or other staff if they have mental conditions or maybe their Gay staff if they have Aids? What happens when someone says "OK I will have the vax at your insistance rather than lose my job, but I need you to agree that a) you are threatening to sack me and that b) if it affects my ability to work in future, you have adequate insurance to cover my medical bills and pension for the rest of my life. I will need a full medical examination now to set a health base line, at your expense of course". |
There are lots of jobs you can't do if you are HIV+, if there was a vaccine you would be expected to take it to continue employment. If you lived a lifestyle that put you at risk of contracting it, you would expect to be regularly tested to continue in that job. | |
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