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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? 07:24 - Feb 8 with 3496 viewsscooby

According to his own post on LinkedIn, he’s moved on. And mumbles of 2 coaches having left as well.

There was an Facebook post from an anonymous person saying the academy is closing. Any truth?
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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 10:13 - Feb 8 with 3245 viewsdingdangblue

Well this was recently posted.
'24/25 season: Academy will cost the club - £404,500 being the difference between a grant which reduces to £249,500 less the required expenditure of £654,000.'

As great as it is having an Academy, we just dont have that money in the non league. I presume people are leaving with an inkling of what is coming next season. Unless we are promoted back into the league!

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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 17:35 - Feb 8 with 2753 viewsdavidab2202

Sadly I feel that to keep an Academy going whilst in the reported financial position that we apparently are in is not viable at the moment.
We may be better to see what young players are released from Premiership/ Championship clubs at 18 who may be desperate for a second chance in the Professional game.
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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 18:12 - Feb 8 with 2676 viewsturnthescrew

Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 17:35 - Feb 8 by davidab2202

Sadly I feel that to keep an Academy going whilst in the reported financial position that we apparently are in is not viable at the moment.
We may be better to see what young players are released from Premiership/ Championship clubs at 18 who may be desperate for a second chance in the Professional game.


Like Max Taylor? I prefer George Nevitt
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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 18:28 - Feb 8 with 2629 viewsEllDale

A lot of people who we regard as Academy players came from other clubs.
I think I’m right in saying that this applies to Cannon, Camps, Baah and Morley for example.
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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 10:57 - Feb 9 with 2188 viewsRAFCBLUE

Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 17:35 - Feb 8 by davidab2202

Sadly I feel that to keep an Academy going whilst in the reported financial position that we apparently are in is not viable at the moment.
We may be better to see what young players are released from Premiership/ Championship clubs at 18 who may be desperate for a second chance in the Professional game.


Sadly for us the football world has changed.

If you are a talented young player, it is better to enter the farming system of talent that has been built for the Premier League rather than and EFL club.

As we are now a non-league club both rank above us as "attractiveness" options.

As people who know about football will tell me, Premier League clubs runs open age groups from 9 years old and most big clubs recruit from six years old and run age groups up to under 16's.

Then you have the Under 18's, the Under 21's and Under 23's.

It's therefore not uncommon for Premier League clubs to have 250 young players on their books up to the Under 21's and the Under 23's then has in it the graduates from that system, plus players signed by the Premier League club. Round number say 300 players at a club.

A lot of these young people have agents as well as parents/guardians looking after their interest at a young age.

20 Premier League clubs = 6,000 players.

97% of those do not go on to play Premier League football leaving circa 180 who do.

https://theconversation.com/being-released-from-a-football-academy-takes-a-serio

Replicate that in the Championship - 24 clubs = 7,200

This is a good article on where the Premier League is going with clubs having Category 1 academies getting the preferences.
https://www.whufc.com/news/changes-premier-league-2-202324-season-explained

At Dale we have to spend £154,000 this season net of grant and £404,500 next season net of grant if we stay in the National League.

Equally, coaching roles in academy football get filled by good coaches on good money because it is big business. Look at BBM (Manchester City) and Stockdale (Sunderland) who are coaches who have worked in that type of setup.

At our level now the big clubs will hoover up players they think they might have missed in their 300 (e.g. Ethan Brierley at Brentford) but the cost of development vs the potential revenue is a risk.

So clubs outside of the Championship have a choice:
(1) Run an academy with the people and costs of that "on risk"
(2) Sign players using scouting data.

Its a difficult conundrum when most young players don't make it or give a financial benefit, but occasionally there are some who do.

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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 15:55 - Feb 9 with 1867 views49thseason

Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 10:57 - Feb 9 by RAFCBLUE

Sadly for us the football world has changed.

If you are a talented young player, it is better to enter the farming system of talent that has been built for the Premier League rather than and EFL club.

As we are now a non-league club both rank above us as "attractiveness" options.

As people who know about football will tell me, Premier League clubs runs open age groups from 9 years old and most big clubs recruit from six years old and run age groups up to under 16's.

Then you have the Under 18's, the Under 21's and Under 23's.

It's therefore not uncommon for Premier League clubs to have 250 young players on their books up to the Under 21's and the Under 23's then has in it the graduates from that system, plus players signed by the Premier League club. Round number say 300 players at a club.

A lot of these young people have agents as well as parents/guardians looking after their interest at a young age.

20 Premier League clubs = 6,000 players.

97% of those do not go on to play Premier League football leaving circa 180 who do.

https://theconversation.com/being-released-from-a-football-academy-takes-a-serio

Replicate that in the Championship - 24 clubs = 7,200

This is a good article on where the Premier League is going with clubs having Category 1 academies getting the preferences.
https://www.whufc.com/news/changes-premier-league-2-202324-season-explained

At Dale we have to spend £154,000 this season net of grant and £404,500 next season net of grant if we stay in the National League.

Equally, coaching roles in academy football get filled by good coaches on good money because it is big business. Look at BBM (Manchester City) and Stockdale (Sunderland) who are coaches who have worked in that type of setup.

At our level now the big clubs will hoover up players they think they might have missed in their 300 (e.g. Ethan Brierley at Brentford) but the cost of development vs the potential revenue is a risk.

So clubs outside of the Championship have a choice:
(1) Run an academy with the people and costs of that "on risk"
(2) Sign players using scouting data.

Its a difficult conundrum when most young players don't make it or give a financial benefit, but occasionally there are some who do.


There are lots of footballers who do not make the grade in the Premiership and Championship, ( how could there not be) ? It would be cheaper to run a 6 week summer camp for say 20 promising 17-20 year olds (identified by MRKT if they have the data) and hope to take on 5 or 6 per season as "apprentices". (grants might be available if the club pays the apprenticeship levy). In the hope that 1 or 2 might progess into the first team each year

I dont see any real cost benefit in trying to sustain an academy if its simply taking funds from the first team squad, it was probably harmless when the costs were covered by the Premiership , but it was by no means an act of philanthropy, when they could pick up our youth players for buttons. Like so much of what football regulators do, its a big team's club and we aren't in it.

Perhaps we should forge better relations with organisations like the one that sent Baah to us from London , local Secondary Schools and junior clubs.... it makes you wonder were we got players from before the money-eating Premiership was invented.
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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 19:05 - Feb 9 with 1719 viewsRAFCBLUE

Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 15:55 - Feb 9 by 49thseason

There are lots of footballers who do not make the grade in the Premiership and Championship, ( how could there not be) ? It would be cheaper to run a 6 week summer camp for say 20 promising 17-20 year olds (identified by MRKT if they have the data) and hope to take on 5 or 6 per season as "apprentices". (grants might be available if the club pays the apprenticeship levy). In the hope that 1 or 2 might progess into the first team each year

I dont see any real cost benefit in trying to sustain an academy if its simply taking funds from the first team squad, it was probably harmless when the costs were covered by the Premiership , but it was by no means an act of philanthropy, when they could pick up our youth players for buttons. Like so much of what football regulators do, its a big team's club and we aren't in it.

Perhaps we should forge better relations with organisations like the one that sent Baah to us from London , local Secondary Schools and junior clubs.... it makes you wonder were we got players from before the money-eating Premiership was invented.


You hit the nail on the head there with the word "hope" which is what the academy system has become for a club like ours.

The last few seasons the number of retained players doesn't look to generate the outlay required to justify the input. You wouldn't spend £154,000 each year and "hope" that the spend was justified.

Instead, even taking the £154,000 net cost and put that into the playing budget well that doesn't get you very far either; three players on £850 or six players on £425 a week, once employment taxes are taken into account.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/national-league/altersschnitt/wettbewerb/CNAT/sa

It looks like having a larger squad of cheaper, younger players and using all of it is key and keeping the average age down. Gateshead and Aldershot are both in the playoffs with younger cheaper squads than Dale.

McNulty bemoans the lack of numbers but Chesterfield's squad is 24 and they have used the third fewest players in the league this year. Maidenhead and Halifax have got by with 23 players.

The best chance a player has is if he is playing. George Nevett will be bought by someone simply because he is playing men's football and plays well.

The best chance the club has is to pick up these players whilst aged 22 to 24 and move them on, repeatedly for a model which signs them for a year, with options and then releases them if the right amount of money comes in and hope you can get enough of them and keep enough of them so that some stay with the club for 3 or 4 seasons.

The economics of the Premier League have skewed the Academy model to be a cost for most lower league clubs who get to Cat 3 or Cat 4 at best.

The real money and investment is going into Cat 1 and to a lesser extent Cat 2 and there's no "hope" there; its a cut throat financial world done to save millions on transfer fees and wages in the long term.

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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 19:20 - Feb 9 with 1675 views442Dale

Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 19:05 - Feb 9 by RAFCBLUE

You hit the nail on the head there with the word "hope" which is what the academy system has become for a club like ours.

The last few seasons the number of retained players doesn't look to generate the outlay required to justify the input. You wouldn't spend £154,000 each year and "hope" that the spend was justified.

Instead, even taking the £154,000 net cost and put that into the playing budget well that doesn't get you very far either; three players on £850 or six players on £425 a week, once employment taxes are taken into account.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/national-league/altersschnitt/wettbewerb/CNAT/sa

It looks like having a larger squad of cheaper, younger players and using all of it is key and keeping the average age down. Gateshead and Aldershot are both in the playoffs with younger cheaper squads than Dale.

McNulty bemoans the lack of numbers but Chesterfield's squad is 24 and they have used the third fewest players in the league this year. Maidenhead and Halifax have got by with 23 players.

The best chance a player has is if he is playing. George Nevett will be bought by someone simply because he is playing men's football and plays well.

The best chance the club has is to pick up these players whilst aged 22 to 24 and move them on, repeatedly for a model which signs them for a year, with options and then releases them if the right amount of money comes in and hope you can get enough of them and keep enough of them so that some stay with the club for 3 or 4 seasons.

The economics of the Premier League have skewed the Academy model to be a cost for most lower league clubs who get to Cat 3 or Cat 4 at best.

The real money and investment is going into Cat 1 and to a lesser extent Cat 2 and there's no "hope" there; its a cut throat financial world done to save millions on transfer fees and wages in the long term.


Is there a link to what teams like Gateshead and Aldershot are paying for their squads against what we are?

The point about developing players who don’t necessarily come through the youth system for sale down the line is spot on. A model Dale have used very effectively in the past, something we received lots of praise for and something that hasn’t been anywhere near good enough in recent years. Another reason why we are where we are.

The last set of players that sort of fell into that category were your Humphrys, Rathbone, and Beesley (am I missing anyone?) who all arrived under BBM/Hill.

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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 11:54 - Feb 11 with 1091 viewsDalenet

Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 19:20 - Feb 9 by 442Dale

Is there a link to what teams like Gateshead and Aldershot are paying for their squads against what we are?

The point about developing players who don’t necessarily come through the youth system for sale down the line is spot on. A model Dale have used very effectively in the past, something we received lots of praise for and something that hasn’t been anywhere near good enough in recent years. Another reason why we are where we are.

The last set of players that sort of fell into that category were your Humphrys, Rathbone, and Beesley (am I missing anyone?) who all arrived under BBM/Hill.


On your first point I had a look at both the accounts of Alderhot and Gateshead. Both are smaller businesses than Dale and are thus able to produce filleted accounts that don't need to show turnover or profit and loss. One of the thresholds for that, beyond assets and turnover, is the number of employees. In 2022 we reported we had 138 employees at that time, Gateshead had 27 and Aldershot 55. Whilst not a proxy for playing budgets, I suspect both have lower budgets than Dale.
[Post edited 11 Feb 12:12]
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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 11:59 - Feb 11 with 1073 views442Dale

Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 11:54 - Feb 11 by Dalenet

On your first point I had a look at both the accounts of Alderhot and Gateshead. Both are smaller businesses than Dale and are thus able to produce filleted accounts that don't need to show turnover or profit and loss. One of the thresholds for that, beyond assets and turnover, is the number of employees. In 2022 we reported we had 138 employees at that time, Gateshead had 27 and Aldershot 55. Whilst not a proxy for playing budgets, I suspect both have lower budgets than Dale.
[Post edited 11 Feb 12:12]


Cheers for that. Yeah, it was more about the specifics of the playing budgets of all three but I totally accept those clubs may have lower. Just wondered if there was any detailed info on it.

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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 12:51 - Feb 11 with 997 viewsDalenet

Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 11:59 - Feb 11 by 442Dale

Cheers for that. Yeah, it was more about the specifics of the playing budgets of all three but I totally accept those clubs may have lower. Just wondered if there was any detailed info on it.


There isn't a playing budget or cost breakdown at all. But being inquisitive, I have looked at the biggest club in the league - Chesterfield. They are owned by a Community Trust and have charitable work and non charitable income and costs (football club). They have to breakdown their costs and with 243 employees their employment costs are much higher at £3.8m in total. But because they are a community trust they have to declare how many of the employees earn more than £60k a year. 10 did, of which 4 were not players. So they had 6 players earning between £60k and £90k. Their gate receipts alone were over £2m and commercial income another £2m so they can afford it. But what it does suggest to me, is that even the biggest club in this league probably doesn't have a playing budget any higher than Dale had last season at the bottom of League Two - somewhere around £1.5m. We need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and make better use of the resources we have.
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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 12:56 - Feb 11 with 985 viewsD_Alien

Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 12:51 - Feb 11 by Dalenet

There isn't a playing budget or cost breakdown at all. But being inquisitive, I have looked at the biggest club in the league - Chesterfield. They are owned by a Community Trust and have charitable work and non charitable income and costs (football club). They have to breakdown their costs and with 243 employees their employment costs are much higher at £3.8m in total. But because they are a community trust they have to declare how many of the employees earn more than £60k a year. 10 did, of which 4 were not players. So they had 6 players earning between £60k and £90k. Their gate receipts alone were over £2m and commercial income another £2m so they can afford it. But what it does suggest to me, is that even the biggest club in this league probably doesn't have a playing budget any higher than Dale had last season at the bottom of League Two - somewhere around £1.5m. We need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and make better use of the resources we have.


Great analysis, and conclusion

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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 13:29 - Feb 11 with 918 views442Dale

Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 12:51 - Feb 11 by Dalenet

There isn't a playing budget or cost breakdown at all. But being inquisitive, I have looked at the biggest club in the league - Chesterfield. They are owned by a Community Trust and have charitable work and non charitable income and costs (football club). They have to breakdown their costs and with 243 employees their employment costs are much higher at £3.8m in total. But because they are a community trust they have to declare how many of the employees earn more than £60k a year. 10 did, of which 4 were not players. So they had 6 players earning between £60k and £90k. Their gate receipts alone were over £2m and commercial income another £2m so they can afford it. But what it does suggest to me, is that even the biggest club in this league probably doesn't have a playing budget any higher than Dale had last season at the bottom of League Two - somewhere around £1.5m. We need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and make better use of the resources we have.


Your last line says it all really, because at our very best that’s what we’ve done. Playing budgets should never be increased if it leads to issues for the club going forward.

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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 21:17 - Feb 11 with 651 viewsShun

Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 18:28 - Feb 8 by EllDale

A lot of people who we regard as Academy players came from other clubs.
I think I’m right in saying that this applies to Cannon, Camps, Baah and Morley for example.


But without our academy they wouldn’t have come to us.
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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 21:32 - Feb 11 with 631 viewsEllDale

I think other non-Academy clubs run a Youth Team though. Could they have played for that?
I think I’m right in saying as well that Huddersfield Town don’t operate an Academy system/team before under 16 level and hoover up castoffs from other clubs to stock their teams.
Is this an option?
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Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 21:44 - Feb 11 with 618 views49thseason

Why no mention of the academy manager leaving? on 21:32 - Feb 11 by EllDale

I think other non-Academy clubs run a Youth Team though. Could they have played for that?
I think I’m right in saying as well that Huddersfield Town don’t operate an Academy system/team before under 16 level and hoover up castoffs from other clubs to stock their teams.
Is this an option?


It has to be, we cant afford anything else, and shouldn't be trying to.
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