| Ban of petrol and diesel cars 11:29 - Nov 14 with 2729 views | onehunglow |
Being brought forward to 2030 then.
Given the price of electric cars,people will simply either driver banger causing more pollution or simply bin the car.
Troubled times ahead |  |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 10:05 - Nov 15 with 583 views | controversial_jack |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 08:47 - Nov 15 by felixstowe_jack |
Why is air conditioning needed just open the windows.
As for heating you can always wrap up warm. EV actual use heat source pumps, they pump in external air and act as a fridge in reverse. They provide about 5kw of heating for every 1Kw of battery power.
Of course if you use air conditioning in it powered by the engine as uses more fuel causing more pollution. Even heating takes hot water from the radiator which means the engine takes longer to heat up and often never reaches optimum temperature to burn petrol using even more petrol. |
They pump in air, where does the pump get it's energy from? Whatever it provides and 5 times more than it uses, must be about 500% efficiency - that's the world's energy sorted out. | | | |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 10:25 - Nov 15 with 576 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 10:05 - Nov 15 by controversial_jack |
They pump in air, where does the pump get it's energy from? Whatever it provides and 5 times more than it uses, must be about 500% efficiency - that's the world's energy sorted out. |
That is how heat source pumps work. They do not create energy. They compress air, it get hots the energy the hot air then gets blown into the car. No extra energy is created it is just a transference of energy from air to the car. The pump uses some energy but can transfer five times as much energy from the air as it uses.
Www.iop.org | |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 11:03 - Nov 15 with 564 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 08:47 - Nov 15 by felixstowe_jack |
Why is air conditioning needed just open the windows.
As for heating you can always wrap up warm. EV actual use heat source pumps, they pump in external air and act as a fridge in reverse. They provide about 5kw of heating for every 1Kw of battery power.
Of course if you use air conditioning in it powered by the engine as uses more fuel causing more pollution. Even heating takes hot water from the radiator which means the engine takes longer to heat up and often never reaches optimum temperature to burn petrol using even more petrol. |
The only time that a heat pump gives you that much more power than you put in is when the outside temperature is not very low, as soon as it gets very low it gets ever closer to a 1 to 1 ratio.
Which is the reason that they do not work very well in the UK and can be very expensive to run in the winter, as is electric heating
If you dont beleive me just google it.
I will give you this one for free
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/bus | | | |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 11:07 - Nov 15 with 559 views | controversial_jack |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 10:25 - Nov 15 by felixstowe_jack |
That is how heat source pumps work. They do not create energy. They compress air, it get hots the energy the hot air then gets blown into the car. No extra energy is created it is just a transference of energy from air to the car. The pump uses some energy but can transfer five times as much energy from the air as it uses.
Www.iop.org |
I know how fridges and compressors work Compressors need lot's of energy too I'm aware energy can't be created, that's basic , but compressors and fridges are not deficient at all | | | |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 11:09 - Nov 15 with 555 views | NotLoyal |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 11:07 - Nov 15 by controversial_jack |
I know how fridges and compressors work Compressors need lot's of energy too I'm aware energy can't be created, that's basic , but compressors and fridges are not deficient at all |
I’ve got it now, your the photocopier engineer from Alan Partridge’Aha’ 👠|  |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 11:41 - Nov 15 with 540 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 11:07 - Nov 15 by controversial_jack |
I know how fridges and compressors work Compressors need lot's of energy too I'm aware energy can't be created, that's basic , but compressors and fridges are not deficient at all |
The car’s relationship with heat is of the love-hate kind, and just because we’re steadily moving from burning fuels to drawing power from a battery, that isn’t going to change much.
Heat is an inevitable consequence of burning fuel, but once the fire is set inside a combustion engine and liquid is converted into expanding gas to drive pistons or turbines, the heat that’s left is the uninvited guest that nobody wants. Its creation squanders more than half the energy contained in the fuel that’s sucked out of the engine by the cooling system and dumped into the surrounding air.
Powerful electrical systems in EVs also generate huge amounts of heat, and its negative effect on range and battery charging time is perplexing. But where the strategy was once to waste it, now the focus is on saving every last joule and forcing it to earn its keep. That’s where the heat pump, a kind of back-to-front refrigerator, comes in, and it’s something engineers are exploiting.
A household refrigerator contains a compressor and a sealed system of tubes full of refrigerant gas. When this gas is compressed, it becomes hot (as they do; try sealing the end of a bicycle pump with your thumb). The next stop for the hot gas is a snaking line of tubing to the back of the refrigerator, called the condenser.
Exactly like a car radiator, the condenser radiates heat, in turn cooling the refrigerant gas which liquidises and passes into a network of tubes called the evaporator. The volume of the evaporator is larger than that of the condenser, so the pressure drops, the liquid refrigerant evaporates and the temperature drops, chilling the fridge.
An air-con unit works in the same way, but a heat pump usually does it in reverse, with heat from the condenser used to raise the temperature in the battery or cabin.
In an EV, reversible heat pumps can be used to both warm the battery and cool it. When cooling it, the excess heat from the battery can be sent to the cabin heater. A heat pump can also move heat from the ambient air to the cabin heater. The Nissan Leaf was the first to do this, but not all EVs have embraced this technology yet.
Recycling heat reduces the amount of energy drawn from the EV’s battery to maintain a comfortable temperature for occupants, while managing the temperature of the battery before the car arrives at the charging station (using sat-nav information) means it can be brought to the optimum charging temperature before charging starts, reducing the charging time.
Does this sorcery come for free? Not quite, because work is done by the compressor to make it happen, but it’s estimated that a heat pump using 1kW of energy can produce up to three times that as heat energy. | |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 12:18 - Nov 15 with 534 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 11:41 - Nov 15 by felixstowe_jack |
The car’s relationship with heat is of the love-hate kind, and just because we’re steadily moving from burning fuels to drawing power from a battery, that isn’t going to change much.
Heat is an inevitable consequence of burning fuel, but once the fire is set inside a combustion engine and liquid is converted into expanding gas to drive pistons or turbines, the heat that’s left is the uninvited guest that nobody wants. Its creation squanders more than half the energy contained in the fuel that’s sucked out of the engine by the cooling system and dumped into the surrounding air.
Powerful electrical systems in EVs also generate huge amounts of heat, and its negative effect on range and battery charging time is perplexing. But where the strategy was once to waste it, now the focus is on saving every last joule and forcing it to earn its keep. That’s where the heat pump, a kind of back-to-front refrigerator, comes in, and it’s something engineers are exploiting.
A household refrigerator contains a compressor and a sealed system of tubes full of refrigerant gas. When this gas is compressed, it becomes hot (as they do; try sealing the end of a bicycle pump with your thumb). The next stop for the hot gas is a snaking line of tubing to the back of the refrigerator, called the condenser.
Exactly like a car radiator, the condenser radiates heat, in turn cooling the refrigerant gas which liquidises and passes into a network of tubes called the evaporator. The volume of the evaporator is larger than that of the condenser, so the pressure drops, the liquid refrigerant evaporates and the temperature drops, chilling the fridge.
An air-con unit works in the same way, but a heat pump usually does it in reverse, with heat from the condenser used to raise the temperature in the battery or cabin.
In an EV, reversible heat pumps can be used to both warm the battery and cool it. When cooling it, the excess heat from the battery can be sent to the cabin heater. A heat pump can also move heat from the ambient air to the cabin heater. The Nissan Leaf was the first to do this, but not all EVs have embraced this technology yet.
Recycling heat reduces the amount of energy drawn from the EV’s battery to maintain a comfortable temperature for occupants, while managing the temperature of the battery before the car arrives at the charging station (using sat-nav information) means it can be brought to the optimum charging temperature before charging starts, reducing the charging time.
Does this sorcery come for free? Not quite, because work is done by the compressor to make it happen, but it’s estimated that a heat pump using 1kW of energy can produce up to three times that as heat energy. |
" just because we’re steadily moving from burning fuels to drawing power from a battery"
Anyone reading that might be led in to thinking that the energy in the battery was somehow "magicked" in to it.
Yet most of it, most of the time comes from burning fuel.
Burning fuel at a remote point to create electricity is less efficient than burning fuel where it is needed, which is why Gas Central haeting is more efficient and cheaper than Electric heating.
However Electric motors are more efficient than FF engines, but when it is all weighed up an EV is not much cheaper to run than an FF car which has the penalty of 70% taxation.
When that is added to EV running costs they would actually end up more expensive to run than an FF car.
What you probably do not know is that quite a bit of that heat from burning fuel can actually be recovered, but no one is really interested in persuing it because it just adds cost to the car or truck.
Peltier & Seebeck affect devices on a Truck can get as much as 7kw of energy from waste heat.
See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
They were used for years in Satellites as ther are no moving parts. | | | |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 12:41 - Nov 15 with 528 views | controversial_jack |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 11:41 - Nov 15 by felixstowe_jack |
The car’s relationship with heat is of the love-hate kind, and just because we’re steadily moving from burning fuels to drawing power from a battery, that isn’t going to change much.
Heat is an inevitable consequence of burning fuel, but once the fire is set inside a combustion engine and liquid is converted into expanding gas to drive pistons or turbines, the heat that’s left is the uninvited guest that nobody wants. Its creation squanders more than half the energy contained in the fuel that’s sucked out of the engine by the cooling system and dumped into the surrounding air.
Powerful electrical systems in EVs also generate huge amounts of heat, and its negative effect on range and battery charging time is perplexing. But where the strategy was once to waste it, now the focus is on saving every last joule and forcing it to earn its keep. That’s where the heat pump, a kind of back-to-front refrigerator, comes in, and it’s something engineers are exploiting.
A household refrigerator contains a compressor and a sealed system of tubes full of refrigerant gas. When this gas is compressed, it becomes hot (as they do; try sealing the end of a bicycle pump with your thumb). The next stop for the hot gas is a snaking line of tubing to the back of the refrigerator, called the condenser.
Exactly like a car radiator, the condenser radiates heat, in turn cooling the refrigerant gas which liquidises and passes into a network of tubes called the evaporator. The volume of the evaporator is larger than that of the condenser, so the pressure drops, the liquid refrigerant evaporates and the temperature drops, chilling the fridge.
An air-con unit works in the same way, but a heat pump usually does it in reverse, with heat from the condenser used to raise the temperature in the battery or cabin.
In an EV, reversible heat pumps can be used to both warm the battery and cool it. When cooling it, the excess heat from the battery can be sent to the cabin heater. A heat pump can also move heat from the ambient air to the cabin heater. The Nissan Leaf was the first to do this, but not all EVs have embraced this technology yet.
Recycling heat reduces the amount of energy drawn from the EV’s battery to maintain a comfortable temperature for occupants, while managing the temperature of the battery before the car arrives at the charging station (using sat-nav information) means it can be brought to the optimum charging temperature before charging starts, reducing the charging time.
Does this sorcery come for free? Not quite, because work is done by the compressor to make it happen, but it’s estimated that a heat pump using 1kW of energy can produce up to three times that as heat energy. |
yes, heat and pressure are directly related, High pressure equals high temp and the other way around. A compressor needs a lot of energy to compress and it's not very efficient.Turn your fridges freezers off and the electrical consumption drops considerably | | | |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 13:51 - Nov 15 with 516 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 12:41 - Nov 15 by controversial_jack |
yes, heat and pressure are directly related, High pressure equals high temp and the other way around. A compressor needs a lot of energy to compress and it's not very efficient.Turn your fridges freezers off and the electrical consumption drops considerably |
An A rated Freezer uses about 500w a day an A rates fridge freezer 400w. Even that energy is not total wasted as it is given off as heat. | |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 14:05 - Nov 15 with 513 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 12:18 - Nov 15 by A_Fans_Dad |
" just because we’re steadily moving from burning fuels to drawing power from a battery"
Anyone reading that might be led in to thinking that the energy in the battery was somehow "magicked" in to it.
Yet most of it, most of the time comes from burning fuel.
Burning fuel at a remote point to create electricity is less efficient than burning fuel where it is needed, which is why Gas Central haeting is more efficient and cheaper than Electric heating.
However Electric motors are more efficient than FF engines, but when it is all weighed up an EV is not much cheaper to run than an FF car which has the penalty of 70% taxation.
When that is added to EV running costs they would actually end up more expensive to run than an FF car.
What you probably do not know is that quite a bit of that heat from burning fuel can actually be recovered, but no one is really interested in persuing it because it just adds cost to the car or truck.
Peltier & Seebeck affect devices on a Truck can get as much as 7kw of energy from waste heat.
See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
They were used for years in Satellites as ther are no moving parts. |
50% of electricity is generated by renewables so only 50% is produced by burning mainly gas.
A lot of UK domestic energy suppliers only buy renewable energy so if your energy supplier is one of them only renewable energy is used to charge your EV .
Comparative costs per mile 60Kw at 15p per KW equals £ 9
Range 240 per charge. Cost per mile = 3.75p
1 Gallon pf petrol £5.18 mpg 35 Cost per mile =14.8 | |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 14:06 - Nov 15 with 513 views | Catullus |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 13:51 - Nov 15 by felixstowe_jack |
An A rated Freezer uses about 500w a day an A rates fridge freezer 400w. Even that energy is not total wasted as it is given off as heat. |
From that I take that having a pantry and buying fresh food every day would be a money saver? It would be better for the environment, less waste. It would be better for people because we'd get more exercise. It would be better for employment as there'd be more local shops. There would be less use of cars because there'd be more local jobs so again, better for the environment. That too would save people money.
Not needing a car would save us a fortune, with it all added up it'd come to about £350 per month. | |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 14:26 - Nov 15 with 506 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 14:06 - Nov 15 by Catullus |
From that I take that having a pantry and buying fresh food every day would be a money saver? It would be better for the environment, less waste. It would be better for people because we'd get more exercise. It would be better for employment as there'd be more local shops. There would be less use of cars because there'd be more local jobs so again, better for the environment. That too would save people money.
Not needing a car would save us a fortune, with it all added up it'd come to about £350 per month. |
Only if you lived within walking distance of a shop. Most people won't walk 100 yards let alone a mile or so. | |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 14:46 - Nov 15 with 499 views | Andy1300 |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 10:04 - Nov 15 by Whiterockin |
As I see it there are major issues with the move over to electric cars.
First is obviously the ability to charge the vehicle. Many live in properties where they are not able to connect the car to a charging point where they live particularly if you live in a flat in a city or have to park on the street wherever you can. The only long term solution I can see is a portable power pack similar to something you use for a mobile phone, put it in the car overnight to charge the car and back in your house during the day to re charge. Currently the size of these would be impractical but with research hopefully the size could be reduced to a manageable size.
Secondly there are not currently enough electric cars on the road to have a viable second hand market to help those who want to go electric but can't afford it. My solution on this would make it compulsory for all motabillity cars to be electric in 2 years time. There are approximately 650,000 motabillity cars on the road on 3 year contracts, by the time you factor in early contract ends when people pass away and benefit is withdrawn there is nearly 250,000 going into the second hand car market every year. This would really push the change forward. Radical I know, but major changes need to come in for this to work. |
We used to have notability cars for our daughter, she’s still alive, not all users die din the 3 years of lease.
I would make company. Are the first ones to target. |  |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 15:22 - Nov 15 with 485 views | Whiterockin |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 14:46 - Nov 15 by Andy1300 |
We used to have notability cars for our daughter, she’s still alive, not all users die din the 3 years of lease.
I would make company. Are the first ones to target. |
That's not what I said. |  | | |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 15:28 - Nov 15 with 479 views | controversial_jack |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 14:26 - Nov 15 by felixstowe_jack |
Only if you lived within walking distance of a shop. Most people won't walk 100 yards let alone a mile or so. |
Loaded down with heavy bags? | | | |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 15:33 - Nov 15 with 478 views | DJack |
This is the best thread for some time on this board.
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| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 15:35 - Nov 15 with 478 views | Catullus |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 14:26 - Nov 15 by felixstowe_jack |
Only if you lived within walking distance of a shop. Most people won't walk 100 yards let alone a mile or so. |
Yes very true. We are a lazy bunch of lazy trogs eh. I need a crutch to get around, sometimes both of them. I still walk the dog in all weathers and I walk to our local shop if we don't need more than I can fit in a rucksack. There's neighbours who drive their kids 200 yards to school, some drive them to the bus stop which is closer!
Where we used to live the dad would leave for work and the 3 kids would be dropped off on the way, the school was about 60 yards away, it took longer to get in and out of the car than to walk. | |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 18:56 - Nov 15 with 453 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 14:05 - Nov 15 by felixstowe_jack |
50% of electricity is generated by renewables so only 50% is produced by burning mainly gas.
A lot of UK domestic energy suppliers only buy renewable energy so if your energy supplier is one of them only renewable energy is used to charge your EV .
Comparative costs per mile 60Kw at 15p per KW equals £ 9
Range 240 per charge. Cost per mile = 3.75p
1 Gallon pf petrol £5.18 mpg 35 Cost per mile =14.8 |
Do you really believe what you write?
First of all according to the national grid it is 40% of energy production is renewable and that includes about 2.1% hydro & pumped hydro and 8.5% Biomass which is just as dirty as Coal. Wind is approximately 21% and solar 8%.
"A lot of UK domestic energy suppliers only buy renewable energy".
Do you actually think that once the electrons are in the national grid anybody can extract only those that came from wind turbines or solar farms?
Let me correct your running cost calculations for you.
The cost of petrol is when the pump price is £1.12p/l is 35.3 pence, so the cost for a gallon is £1.57.
Lot's of petrol engined cars do 50mpg, so cost per mile = 3.14p.
How about fiesels that do 70 per gallon, cost per mile = 3.18p
All the rest of your 14.8p is taxes, but I am sure that you already know that.
You display typical greenie tendencies of using green mis-information [Post edited 15 Nov 2020 20:14]
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 20:17 - Nov 15 with 443 views | A_Fans_Dad |
The latest Pollution research has found that Tyre pollution is 1000 times worse than Exhaust Emmissions.
As EVs are much heavier than the equivilent FF car that means they are actually worse polluters.
Oh dear yet another Government greenie cock-up. | | | |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 09:40 - Nov 16 with 382 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 18:56 - Nov 15 by A_Fans_Dad |
Do you really believe what you write?
First of all according to the national grid it is 40% of energy production is renewable and that includes about 2.1% hydro & pumped hydro and 8.5% Biomass which is just as dirty as Coal. Wind is approximately 21% and solar 8%.
"A lot of UK domestic energy suppliers only buy renewable energy".
Do you actually think that once the electrons are in the national grid anybody can extract only those that came from wind turbines or solar farms?
Let me correct your running cost calculations for you.
The cost of petrol is when the pump price is £1.12p/l is 35.3 pence, so the cost for a gallon is £1.57.
Lot's of petrol engined cars do 50mpg, so cost per mile = 3.14p.
How about fiesels that do 70 per gallon, cost per mile = 3.18p
All the rest of your 14.8p is taxes, but I am sure that you already know that.
You display typical greenie tendencies of using green mis-information [Post edited 15 Nov 2020 20:14]
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A very basic error in your calculation there are 4.45 litres per gallon if the pump price per litre is the £1.13 you quote a gallon cost 4.55 × 1.13 = £5.09 a gallon.
Current uk average per litre is £1.24 will be a bit cheap at supermarket .
While some cars can indeed do 50 mph cruising on a motorway the same car will be luck to get 30 mph around town.
Official mileage cost.
Petrol engine 15.8p
Diesel engine 13.4p
Average fuel efficiency mpg petrol 36
Diesel mpg 43.
2020 q2 power generation
44.6%
As you are a typical luddite you will know doubt ignore figures from independent bodies who have access to far more facts and figures and no doubt have carried out proper research. | |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 09:46 - Nov 16 with 380 views | Catullus |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 15:28 - Nov 15 by controversial_jack |
Loaded down with heavy bags? |
If we had all the local shops back you wouldn't be loaded down with heavy bags because you'd be out getting some shooping (real, fresh food) every other day.
Imagine having frsh fruit, vegetables and meat. No heavily processed foods. Imagine cooing from fresh every day and having the consequent health benefits of the extra exercise and good food?
What a revolutionary idea, it'd never happen. | |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 10:12 - Nov 16 with 376 views | controversial_jack |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 09:46 - Nov 16 by Catullus |
If we had all the local shops back you wouldn't be loaded down with heavy bags because you'd be out getting some shooping (real, fresh food) every other day.
Imagine having frsh fruit, vegetables and meat. No heavily processed foods. Imagine cooing from fresh every day and having the consequent health benefits of the extra exercise and good food?
What a revolutionary idea, it'd never happen. |
It did happen, but it's been rejected in favour of convenience and cost | | | |
| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 10:43 - Nov 16 with 361 views | felixstowe_jack |
Good luck trying to enforce that.
There are over 600,000 unlicensed vehicles in the UK and 1,500,000 unlicensed drivers on the UK roads.
Currently the 3% of unlicensed drivers are involved in 18% of the UK road deaths. | |
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| Ban of petrol and diesel cars on 10:50 - Nov 16 with 360 views | chad |
Agree with DJ a very interesting thread 👠|  | | |
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