| “We need to rotate” 19:32 - Mar 20 with 13077 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Can we stop with that nonsense now please, and realise the fact that we have an incredibly front loaded and lop sided squad.
Bidwell looked like a player that had been rotated, no sharpness and no fluidity and about 3 yards off the pace. Whittaker for all his effort has nowhere near the physical attributes to be playing at this level yet, he showed what he could be at times and is going to be a very good player I have no doubt, but he was knocked off the ball every time he was challenged and we gave up possession far too easily. Naughton is not a centre back and what benefits he may give us when we have the ball sadly we lose without it, we were dominated in the air in both boxes.
We need to play our best team and accept we will be tired at times, that’s the nature of football when you don’t have a big squad full of quality. Which is something we don’t have despite many pretending otherwise.
I am full of praise for the management team and their achievements thus far but one area where I feel disappointed in is I don’t think they have blocked out the noise efficiently enough. To me, it looks like they have allowed desperate opinion to be picked up by journalists and has allowed that to permeate their decision making. This latest game seems to be the epitome of that. It was a disjointed game with what looked like a cobbled together team.
Cabango, Lowe and Smith have to start. |  |
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| “We need to rotate” on 15:30 - Apr 8 with 611 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 15:17 - Apr 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
Of course it isn’t.
Any normal person (that isn’t trying to be obtuse because they don’t want to lose face in a debate) can explain why a team has played well. The aim of the game is to score more than the opposition, concede less than the opposition, try and keep the ball away from them and earn points from the game.
You are welcome to have your opinion who is better in that position. However in terms of the effect on the team, the team performs better when Cabango is there. Again that’s just a fact and hits all the major key indicators, it’s not an opinion. I have asked you if you would like to add any and you haven’t been able to come up with any.
You haven’t had to explain anything. You took it upon yourself, expecting that it may change the facts that we play better with Cabango there - but it didn’t. I’m fully aware of the role of the wider centre backs. My point was that regardless of what positives you state Naughton brings to the position, the team suffers more by losing what Cabango brings to it. I have demonstrated that over and over again, quite clearly so. I have had to explain to you in detail why this is the case.
Due to your predisposition to admitting you may be wrong you have decided that these key indicators are no longer what show team performance levels and it is something else that you can’t explain or define. It’s like having a discussion about science and someone saying “but you don’t know for sure the tooth fairy doesn’t exist”.
You have stated clearly you don’t think we play better as a team with Cabango there. In order to determine that you would have to know the criteria that has led you to come to that conclusion. So state the criteria that you regularly judge games on (not just in this instance) that are more important than points earned, possession, goals scored and goals conceded - and we can look into it.
As for fatigue, 96 hours is the time frame for a professional footballer (of the required fitness standing) to recover fully, including biochemical markers from the previous game. Of course that accumulates if the exertion is continued and strung within a time frame less than it takes to recover. But fatigue does not accumulate once the sufficient rest as been achieved.
We can debate that too if you like? Another where facts back what I’m saying. [Post edited 8 Apr 2021 15:29]
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I’m not getting into a fatigue based discussion with you as well, you’re doing that elsewhere. Safe to say our dip in form is down to something, I have my ideas but I can’t definitely say what.
Putting our respective opinions about each player aside all I’m trying to explain to you is the following things can be factually evidenced
Minutes on pitch
Headers won/lost
Points per game
Pass Completion rate
Etc
The following can’t, they are subjective
Who is the better player
Whether the team is better with player A or Player B playing
Whether player A or B work better with Player C.
I know you won’t agree and will think they are all factual. That’s down to you. |  | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 15:40 - Apr 8 with 607 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 15:30 - Apr 8 by jack247 |
I’m not getting into a fatigue based discussion with you as well, you’re doing that elsewhere. Safe to say our dip in form is down to something, I have my ideas but I can’t definitely say what.
Putting our respective opinions about each player aside all I’m trying to explain to you is the following things can be factually evidenced
Minutes on pitch
Headers won/lost
Points per game
Pass Completion rate
Etc
The following can’t, they are subjective
Who is the better player
Whether the team is better with player A or Player B playing
Whether player A or B work better with Player C.
I know you won’t agree and will think they are all factual. That’s down to you. |
It’s not really a discussion to be had. It’s just science.
As for opinions about each player, it’s irrelevant. It’s a team game.
Ballotelli was apparently an incredible footballer and one of the most talented at Man City, but he didn’t have a good effect on the team when he played. Sometimes he would but in general they played better when someone else was there instead. That performance can be measured very easily.
It is no different here. Yes you can have an opinion on who is the better player but you can’t have an opinion on the effect they have had on historical performances because it’s documented fact. We have been more successful with Cabango in that position than Naughton, we have achieved higher results in all major key performance indicators.
I am happy for you to put forward some other key performance indicators that you believe are more important than the main ones everyone look at - which must have led to you say that despite all the above you think the team plays better with him; but as of yet you haven’t given me a single one.
Chances created? Chances allowed? You name it, I’ll take a look. You must have some in mind as you made the claim that we don’t perform better as a team with him there. | |
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| “We need to rotate” on 15:46 - Apr 8 with 597 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 15:40 - Apr 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
It’s not really a discussion to be had. It’s just science.
As for opinions about each player, it’s irrelevant. It’s a team game.
Ballotelli was apparently an incredible footballer and one of the most talented at Man City, but he didn’t have a good effect on the team when he played. Sometimes he would but in general they played better when someone else was there instead. That performance can be measured very easily.
It is no different here. Yes you can have an opinion on who is the better player but you can’t have an opinion on the effect they have had on historical performances because it’s documented fact. We have been more successful with Cabango in that position than Naughton, we have achieved higher results in all major key performance indicators.
I am happy for you to put forward some other key performance indicators that you believe are more important than the main ones everyone look at - which must have led to you say that despite all the above you think the team plays better with him; but as of yet you haven’t given me a single one.
Chances created? Chances allowed? You name it, I’ll take a look. You must have some in mind as you made the claim that we don’t perform better as a team with him there. |
I didn’t think you’d have a cogent answer. The second set of metrics I gave can’t be factually defined. You know that. | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 15:50 - Apr 8 with 594 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 15:46 - Apr 8 by jack247 |
I didn’t think you’d have a cogent answer. The second set of metrics I gave can’t be factually defined. You know that. |
You didn’t ask me a question did you?
As for what can be defined... Some can, some can’t. But again that’s irrelevant as only one is the point I’m making, and that one can.
Who is the better player is subjective yes, but that isn’t the point I have made or am making.
Whether we have played better with him in the side or with Naughton in the side is easily evidenced as I have shown. If you disagree then happy to use the indicators you prefer to use to judge performance.
But it would be globally recognised that the areas are the ones I have tested and highlighted and an focussed on.
This is your chance to put your own ideas forward and have someone look into it on your behalf. [Post edited 8 Apr 2021 15:53]
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| “We need to rotate” on 15:52 - Apr 8 with 591 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 15:50 - Apr 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
You didn’t ask me a question did you?
As for what can be defined... Some can, some can’t. But again that’s irrelevant as only one is the point I’m making, and that one can.
Who is the better player is subjective yes, but that isn’t the point I have made or am making.
Whether we have played better with him in the side or with Naughton in the side is easily evidenced as I have shown. If you disagree then happy to use the indicators you prefer to use to judge performance.
But it would be globally recognised that the areas are the ones I have tested and highlighted and an focussed on.
This is your chance to put your own ideas forward and have someone look into it on your behalf. [Post edited 8 Apr 2021 15:53]
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Which ones do you think can? | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 15:57 - Apr 8 with 589 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 15:52 - Apr 8 by jack247 |
Which ones do you think can? |
I just told you. Whether we have played better as a team with Cabango in that position or Naughton.
Ask any football player, fan or professional what they look for in a good team performance. The answers you will get are to dominate possession, score goals, create chances, don’t concede, get the points.
It is also no doubt the sort of answer you would have given had you not been involved in this discussion and thus those criteria suddenly becoming inconvenient to the point you wanted to make.
All that can be measured and evidenced. There is a fair sample size to look at. If you want to add criteria on top that you deem more important than those main 4 or 5 then happy to look at it. [Post edited 8 Apr 2021 16:03]
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| “We need to rotate” on 16:06 - Apr 8 with 581 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 15:57 - Apr 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
I just told you. Whether we have played better as a team with Cabango in that position or Naughton.
Ask any football player, fan or professional what they look for in a good team performance. The answers you will get are to dominate possession, score goals, create chances, don’t concede, get the points.
It is also no doubt the sort of answer you would have given had you not been involved in this discussion and thus those criteria suddenly becoming inconvenient to the point you wanted to make.
All that can be measured and evidenced. There is a fair sample size to look at. If you want to add criteria on top that you deem more important than those main 4 or 5 then happy to look at it. [Post edited 8 Apr 2021 16:03]
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Still subjective though isn’t it?
It’s not baseball. | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 16:09 - Apr 8 with 580 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 16:06 - Apr 8 by jack247 |
Still subjective though isn’t it?
It’s not baseball. |
No.
For it to be subjective there would need to be an alternate set of criteria deemed more important than the one it is countering.
Then the subjectivity would simply be on what set of criteria is more important in determining performance.
But i struggle to think of a set of criteria anyone could put forward that would be a better indicator of performance than the ones we have analysed. More to the point I have never in my life seen or heard anyone try.
But first time for everything I suppose. When you get your list of more important indicators of performance together then I’ll happily go through and take a look. | |
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| “We need to rotate” on 16:14 - Apr 8 with 574 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 16:09 - Apr 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
No.
For it to be subjective there would need to be an alternate set of criteria deemed more important than the one it is countering.
Then the subjectivity would simply be on what set of criteria is more important in determining performance.
But i struggle to think of a set of criteria anyone could put forward that would be a better indicator of performance than the ones we have analysed. More to the point I have never in my life seen or heard anyone try.
But first time for everything I suppose. When you get your list of more important indicators of performance together then I’ll happily go through and take a look. |
Whether we are better as a team with one player or the other isn’t subjective?
Ok.... | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 16:17 - Apr 8 with 573 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 16:14 - Apr 8 by jack247 |
Whether we are better as a team with one player or the other isn’t subjective?
Ok.... |
Not quite.
Whether we have been a better team with a certain player playing is not subjective, no. We have obvious indicators to show that.
Whether we are a better team with a certain player playing is subjective because it implies the present and future which is yet to be determined.
But that can be determined to some degree by looking at the evidence of the former.
As I said, all the principles of the game and key metrics that people look at in performance levels - have all been higher when Cabango has played there. That’s not subjective.
It could be subjective if you give other criteria that we have not looked at that are more important than the key aspects of the game. But as of yet you haven’t - and can’t imagine you will. [Post edited 8 Apr 2021 16:22]
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| “We need to rotate” on 16:46 - Apr 8 with 557 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| “We need to rotate” on 16:17 - Apr 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
Not quite.
Whether we have been a better team with a certain player playing is not subjective, no. We have obvious indicators to show that.
Whether we are a better team with a certain player playing is subjective because it implies the present and future which is yet to be determined.
But that can be determined to some degree by looking at the evidence of the former.
As I said, all the principles of the game and key metrics that people look at in performance levels - have all been higher when Cabango has played there. That’s not subjective.
It could be subjective if you give other criteria that we have not looked at that are more important than the key aspects of the game. But as of yet you haven’t - and can’t imagine you will. [Post edited 8 Apr 2021 16:22]
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So Cooper, and Margetson our defensive coach are playing Naughton on the right side of a three out of the goodness of their heart?
There’s a whole bunch of things in games that are not influenced by one player, for example “we have more of the ball when Cabango plays” seems a bit silly to me tbh but whatever floats your boat doc. |  | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 16:47 - Apr 8 with 556 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 16:17 - Apr 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
Not quite.
Whether we have been a better team with a certain player playing is not subjective, no. We have obvious indicators to show that.
Whether we are a better team with a certain player playing is subjective because it implies the present and future which is yet to be determined.
But that can be determined to some degree by looking at the evidence of the former.
As I said, all the principles of the game and key metrics that people look at in performance levels - have all been higher when Cabango has played there. That’s not subjective.
It could be subjective if you give other criteria that we have not looked at that are more important than the key aspects of the game. But as of yet you haven’t - and can’t imagine you will. [Post edited 8 Apr 2021 16:22]
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That’s the point. It’s too subjective.
The stats you’ve provided are certainly relevant. They don’t take into account all the variables.
Who we were playing, what their form was like, who was playing for us, were key players injured/out of form, partnerships with surrounding players (Roberts being the obvious example, but obviously Grimes, Fulton, Bennett, Woodman etc come into play), weather conditions, fatigue (for opponents as well as teammates), how the opposition set up.
The list of intangibles that affect a football match is endless.
You would need to eliminate all those variables.
As I’ve said many tines, if it was just based on simplistic data, Cooper would be picking Cabango. | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 16:57 - Apr 8 with 552 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 16:47 - Apr 8 by jack247 |
That’s the point. It’s too subjective.
The stats you’ve provided are certainly relevant. They don’t take into account all the variables.
Who we were playing, what their form was like, who was playing for us, were key players injured/out of form, partnerships with surrounding players (Roberts being the obvious example, but obviously Grimes, Fulton, Bennett, Woodman etc come into play), weather conditions, fatigue (for opponents as well as teammates), how the opposition set up.
The list of intangibles that affect a football match is endless.
You would need to eliminate all those variables.
As I’ve said many tines, if it was just based on simplistic data, Cooper would be picking Cabango. |
But it isn’t. If it was subjective then there would be other criteria being put forward.
With regards to variables we eliminated as many as were put forward and the results were the same. Variables also come less into play as the sample size grows larger. I believe the sample size is around 30 games, it would be extremely unlikely for one set of variables to only affect one negatively and the other positively.
A bit like saying Man City are the best team in the Premier League, and someone saying “but they may have played teams that have had an injury, weather may have affected some etc etc”. Variables affect all players and all games, the more games we have the less they come into play. Over a decent sample size you will get the obvious result.
You have no idea why Cooper is picking Naughton, neither do I. It may be down to attitude, experience who knows. But what we do know is we have played better as a team with Cabango there.
You may say that’s down to luck, weather or whatever variables you want to add. But the fact remains.
Let’s not forget that you actually made a claim that we did not play better as a team with him there, so it should be safe to assume that any variables that are in play you are aware of and have considered in order to make that judgement.
It would be easier if you just listed which games you think are unfairly counted.. I can then look into it and eliminate if it appears to be unfair.
However your opinion time and time again seems to bottom out on “Cooper is picking him so it must be right”. However when I asked if your opinion would change should Coopers change - you said no. So your stance seems a little muddled with regards to that. [Post edited 8 Apr 2021 17:07]
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| “We need to rotate” on 17:08 - Apr 8 with 543 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 16:57 - Apr 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
But it isn’t. If it was subjective then there would be other criteria being put forward.
With regards to variables we eliminated as many as were put forward and the results were the same. Variables also come less into play as the sample size grows larger. I believe the sample size is around 30 games, it would be extremely unlikely for one set of variables to only affect one negatively and the other positively.
A bit like saying Man City are the best team in the Premier League, and someone saying “but they may have played teams that have had an injury, weather may have affected some etc etc”. Variables affect all players and all games, the more games we have the less they come into play. Over a decent sample size you will get the obvious result.
You have no idea why Cooper is picking Naughton, neither do I. It may be down to attitude, experience who knows. But what we do know is we have played better as a team with Cabango there.
You may say that’s down to luck, weather or whatever variables you want to add. But the fact remains.
Let’s not forget that you actually made a claim that we did not play better as a team with him there, so it should be safe to assume that any variables that are in play you are aware of and have considered in order to make that judgement.
It would be easier if you just listed which games you think are unfairly counted.. I can then look into it and eliminate if it appears to be unfair.
However your opinion time and time again seems to bottom out on “Cooper is picking him so it must be right”. However when I asked if your opinion would change should Coopers change - you said no. So your stance seems a little muddled with regards to that. [Post edited 8 Apr 2021 17:07]
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In my view, Cooper plays him there because he is better suited to the role. Also in my view, and I don’t think I’m alone here, the reason you have no idea is that you are one of the more limited on here in terms of watching the game and understanding it’s subtleties.
Not suggesting I’m an expert by any means, many on here have a greater understanding than me.
In my view, you aren’t one of them. That’s not a fact, that my opinion. You won’t change it with transfermarkt. Say something insightful and I’ll listen. | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 17:11 - Apr 8 with 532 views | onehunglow |
| “We need to rotate” on 17:08 - Apr 8 by jack247 |
In my view, Cooper plays him there because he is better suited to the role. Also in my view, and I don’t think I’m alone here, the reason you have no idea is that you are one of the more limited on here in terms of watching the game and understanding it’s subtleties.
Not suggesting I’m an expert by any means, many on here have a greater understanding than me.
In my view, you aren’t one of them. That’s not a fact, that my opinion. You won’t change it with transfermarkt. Say something insightful and I’ll listen. |
Football is a simple game,far more so than rugby.
It is made difficult. | |
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| “We need to rotate” on 17:12 - Apr 8 with 540 views | angryjack |
MY napper is going to blow up after reading all this shi@.....(last fw paragraphs)..it shows where we are as a club if people think cabango should be starting..the boy tries his best but he's not a footballer..in which in today's game the centrer halves need to play.looks like he got a club foot tbf..gets dragged out position following his man leaving massive holes and then divesx in....as for Lowe he may as well join Swansea Harrier's ..might make a sprinter..smith is OK..just OK...we need better.... | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 17:16 - Apr 8 with 534 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 17:11 - Apr 8 by onehunglow |
Football is a simple game,far more so than rugby.
It is made difficult. |
It’s basic premises are simple. The nuances are anything but. | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 17:16 - Apr 8 with 533 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 17:08 - Apr 8 by jack247 |
In my view, Cooper plays him there because he is better suited to the role. Also in my view, and I don’t think I’m alone here, the reason you have no idea is that you are one of the more limited on here in terms of watching the game and understanding it’s subtleties.
Not suggesting I’m an expert by any means, many on here have a greater understanding than me.
In my view, you aren’t one of them. That’s not a fact, that my opinion. You won’t change it with transfermarkt. Say something insightful and I’ll listen. |
It’s pointless in guessing what someone is thinking.
In terms of football I would say I was up there with the most knowledgeable on the forum. You like to say the opposite because I have the ability to show how your opinion is flawed. It’s ok, I’m used to that kind of behaviour.
I haven’t used anything from transfermarkt here have I? That is usually a source for club spends and such like. My source is the data from the games themselves.
As for insight, I have stated we play better as a team when Cabango plays there. I have provided all the key criteria and aspects of the game and showed how in those games what I am saying is accurate.
You have said that we play better as a team when Naughton plays there but have said you can’t explain why or demonstrate it. You said my criteria was with Cabango playing the vast majority in the centre - I showed you that you were wrong. You said it’s down to variables, I asked which ones and in which games and you didn’t know.
If that’s you having greater football knowledge than me then I can only question your judgement further really. You aren’t demonstrating anything you are claiming and you have posted dozens upon dozens of times and essentially said nothing. [Post edited 8 Apr 2021 17:20]
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| “We need to rotate” on 17:18 - Apr 8 with 532 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 17:16 - Apr 8 by jack247 |
It’s basic premises are simple. The nuances are anything but. |
But they are nuances you haven’t explored.
You have been asked to explain which matches are unfairly influenced by factors outside of the basic principles and you didn’t seem to know.
What you are doing is a bit like the religious argument vs science. You are telling science that the Lord works in mysterious ways without explaining what those ways are. Largely because you don’t know. | |
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| “We need to rotate” on 17:21 - Apr 8 with 530 views | Fireboy2 |
I think this topic needs binning after the last few posts.
Why can people just accept other peoples opinions but there are a certain amount who just spoil for a fight, the sad b@stards. |  | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 17:23 - Apr 8 with 529 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 17:21 - Apr 8 by Fireboy2 |
I think this topic needs binning after the last few posts.
Why can people just accept other peoples opinions but there are a certain amount who just spoil for a fight, the sad b@stards. |
Who’s fighting? | |
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| “We need to rotate” on 17:30 - Apr 8 with 525 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 16:46 - Apr 8 by 34dfgdf54 |
So Cooper, and Margetson our defensive coach are playing Naughton on the right side of a three out of the goodness of their heart?
There’s a whole bunch of things in games that are not influenced by one player, for example “we have more of the ball when Cabango plays” seems a bit silly to me tbh but whatever floats your boat doc. |
All 3 aren’t no, the person that picks the team is. Which is Cooper I would have thought.
Why that is, is anybodies guess. It’s a bit like saying so Margetson and Cooper don’t rotate and you happen to think that’s wrong? Also “we are playing badly because we don’t rotate”. But whatever floats your boat.
Saying we have more possession when Cabango plays is a statistical fact. It doesn’t mean I think he’s Xavi, it could well be that he is more efficient in defence meaning we win the ball back quicker giving the midfield ball players more of the ball, more often.
His clearances (double that of Naughton) may mean that the opposition get to recycle the ball less as their attacks get broken up more often and more efficiently.
His presence in the attacking box may mean clearances are more desperate and hurried as he is an added threat in there (4th top scorer) meaning that we retain possession from them and recycle attacks. Although why that is the case isn’t my concern, its the fact of the matter regardless.
There is no way I will be ditching facts for your hunches based on nothing other than wanting to have the opposite view chaps.
You are wasting your time gentlemen, I promise you that. [Post edited 8 Apr 2021 17:45]
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| “We need to rotate” on 18:04 - Apr 8 with 512 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 17:16 - Apr 8 by Dr_Parnassus |
It’s pointless in guessing what someone is thinking.
In terms of football I would say I was up there with the most knowledgeable on the forum. You like to say the opposite because I have the ability to show how your opinion is flawed. It’s ok, I’m used to that kind of behaviour.
I haven’t used anything from transfermarkt here have I? That is usually a source for club spends and such like. My source is the data from the games themselves.
As for insight, I have stated we play better as a team when Cabango plays there. I have provided all the key criteria and aspects of the game and showed how in those games what I am saying is accurate.
You have said that we play better as a team when Naughton plays there but have said you can’t explain why or demonstrate it. You said my criteria was with Cabango playing the vast majority in the centre - I showed you that you were wrong. You said it’s down to variables, I asked which ones and in which games and you didn’t know.
If that’s you having greater football knowledge than me then I can only question your judgement further really. You aren’t demonstrating anything you are claiming and you have posted dozens upon dozens of times and essentially said nothing. [Post edited 8 Apr 2021 17:20]
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Of course you would. I doubt you’d find many that agree | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 18:06 - Apr 8 with 511 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 17:21 - Apr 8 by Fireboy2 |
I think this topic needs binning after the last few posts.
Why can people just accept other peoples opinions but there are a certain amount who just spoil for a fight, the sad b@stards. |
I know. I need to just give up on this thread. It’s patently not going anywhere. He’s decided his opinion is fact and I’m not going to convince him otherwise. | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 19:58 - Apr 8 with 493 views | onehunglow |
| “We need to rotate” on 17:16 - Apr 8 by jack247 |
It’s basic premises are simple. The nuances are anything but. |
Don't agree.
Cricket too far more technical and full of nuances.
Tennis too,golf and squash too. | |
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