| “We need to rotate” 19:32 - Mar 20 with 13074 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Can we stop with that nonsense now please, and realise the fact that we have an incredibly front loaded and lop sided squad.
Bidwell looked like a player that had been rotated, no sharpness and no fluidity and about 3 yards off the pace. Whittaker for all his effort has nowhere near the physical attributes to be playing at this level yet, he showed what he could be at times and is going to be a very good player I have no doubt, but he was knocked off the ball every time he was challenged and we gave up possession far too easily. Naughton is not a centre back and what benefits he may give us when we have the ball sadly we lose without it, we were dominated in the air in both boxes.
We need to play our best team and accept we will be tired at times, that’s the nature of football when you don’t have a big squad full of quality. Which is something we don’t have despite many pretending otherwise.
I am full of praise for the management team and their achievements thus far but one area where I feel disappointed in is I don’t think they have blocked out the noise efficiently enough. To me, it looks like they have allowed desperate opinion to be picked up by journalists and has allowed that to permeate their decision making. This latest game seems to be the epitome of that. It was a disjointed game with what looked like a cobbled together team.
Cabango, Lowe and Smith have to start. |  |
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| “We need to rotate” on 13:36 - Apr 7 with 697 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:30 - Apr 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
Trump for the election? What does that mean? You have about as much understanding of what was discussed politically as you do about what was discussed in football - which isn’t very much.
I said I think Biden would win and stated the exact reasons for it, which turned out to be correct. The postal voting was massively in Biden’s favour and he won. I called the election spot on in various aspects months in advance, even down the the backlash.
I never said the election was corrupt. I said any complaints need to be taken seriously and investigated, I went on to say any corruption that there may have been would have been unlikely to swing the election. I think that’s fair to say I was spot on.
Rotation isn’t an issue, we don’t have the talent to rotate.
Cabango was preferred when I said it, he had more games under his belt than Naughton. You then changed it to “being preferred in the big games”.
Next... |
It's a big part of the issue unfortunately, as is proving.
Cabango was preferred "when you said it", again, clearly not true. Pointed out to you the games where both had been available, Naughton was picked, he then went on to be picked in the game after against Cardiff I believe? "I hope Cooper learns from this" was your answer. |  | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:38 - Apr 7 with 694 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:36 - Apr 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
Because they knew I preferred Cabango and saw it as an angle for conflict - they then got annoyed when I annihilated all their reasons for having Naughton instead showing we were better in every facet when Cabango plays, including areas they attempted to say we were weaker in.
It’s clearly rattled some. Hence why it’s been inexplicably bumped 3 weeks later... when literally nothing has changed.
That’s Planetswans life when you have the reputation of being correct and using facts. It annoys certain people who have certain narratives they want to push, people who put their points across in such a clear cut manner are a danger.
I’m used to it. I take it as a compliment. |
You take this forum lark way seriously.
"a danger"  | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:40 - Apr 7 with 693 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:36 - Apr 7 by 34dfgdf54 |
It's a big part of the issue unfortunately, as is proving.
Cabango was preferred "when you said it", again, clearly not true. Pointed out to you the games where both had been available, Naughton was picked, he then went on to be picked in the game after against Cardiff I believe? "I hope Cooper learns from this" was your answer. |
Nope. I clearly gave you the appearance stats when the discussion was happening. You then changed it like you tend to do when you realise you were wrong. In response to that I stated I hope Cooper learns that isn’t the right play.
A bit like when you tried to claim our loans were very expensive and claiming Brewster was a massive fee. Then claiming Cooper was given big money only to realise we spent about as much as Luton.
You are a lost cause sadly. Your vendettas are making you sound like a lunatic. | |
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| “We need to rotate” on 13:42 - Apr 7 with 690 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 12:21 - Apr 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
Not for me. Cabango every single time, in a 4 or a 3, in the centre or the right of centre. He’s roughly played the same amount of games in centre of the 3 as he has on the right of the 3 (16 vs 14 or something of that ilk).
More points per game with him in the side. More goals scored with him in the side. Less goals conceded with him in the side. More efficient in defence and attack with him in the side.
We tried it with him solely on the right, we tried it taking out the big sides, keeping the big sides in, we tried it taking out games with Hourihane in, keeping games with him in... didn’t matter and it won’t matter, it always came back the same. I asked anyone if they wanted to shoehorn any more criteria, they wisely declined.
Those aren’t opinions. I’m sure you get the picture.
Quite why we are all having the same discussion 3 weeks later is beyond me, maybe someone needed some attention? Who knows. But I’m afraid none of this has changed. [Post edited 7 Apr 2021 12:57]
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Because we played 4 at the back on Monday, thought it was worth mentioning that I would always pick him in that scenario.
I bowed out of the original discussion when you suggested Cabango had better positional sense than Naughton. It was clear then, that while you’re fantastic at debating, football isn’t your strong point. |  | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:44 - Apr 7 with 685 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:40 - Apr 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
Nope. I clearly gave you the appearance stats when the discussion was happening. You then changed it like you tend to do when you realise you were wrong. In response to that I stated I hope Cooper learns that isn’t the right play.
A bit like when you tried to claim our loans were very expensive and claiming Brewster was a massive fee. Then claiming Cooper was given big money only to realise we spent about as much as Luton.
You are a lost cause sadly. Your vendettas are making you sound like a lunatic. |
Are we on about the time you plucked a figure out of thin air for Whittaker? Which completely contradicts the source you said was watertight previous to the discussion, and after?
He's had money, we both know that. How much have Luton spent then?
Why on earth would I have a vendetta against you? | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:45 - Apr 7 with 685 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:42 - Apr 7 by jack247 |
Because we played 4 at the back on Monday, thought it was worth mentioning that I would always pick him in that scenario.
I bowed out of the original discussion when you suggested Cabango had better positional sense than Naughton. It was clear then, that while you’re fantastic at debating, football isn’t your strong point. |
Cabango absolutely has better positional sense as a CB than Naughton. Naughton is a right back and will have better positional sense as a right back.
I am good at debating simply because I am conveying fact and common sense. While others bend that to fit their opinion and can be smashed to bits.
Debating is the easiest thing in the world when you are simply stating reality. | |
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| “We need to rotate” on 13:47 - Apr 7 with 683 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:45 - Apr 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
Cabango absolutely has better positional sense as a CB than Naughton. Naughton is a right back and will have better positional sense as a right back.
I am good at debating simply because I am conveying fact and common sense. While others bend that to fit their opinion and can be smashed to bits.
Debating is the easiest thing in the world when you are simply stating reality. |
Oh my days. | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:49 - Apr 7 with 679 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:44 - Apr 7 by 34dfgdf54 |
Are we on about the time you plucked a figure out of thin air for Whittaker? Which completely contradicts the source you said was watertight previous to the discussion, and after?
He's had money, we both know that. How much have Luton spent then?
Why on earth would I have a vendetta against you? |
I didn’t pluck anything out of thin air, Keith who has contacts in the club told us all. It doesn’t contradict the source that I never claimed was watertight. Keith said the package was 700k... IF we get promoted. Both Keith and Transfermarkt seem to be on the same page there.
Having money isn’t what you said. You said he’s had big money, well in actual fact he has had one of the lowest amounts in the league to spend. So you were wrong there weren’t you.
Vendetta against me? You have a vendetta against Cooper. I am proving an inconvenient annoyance to that because while you try and bend the truth and create scenario after scenario to slate him, I put you right.
A bit like when you said that the Americans didn’t appoint Bob Bradley. | |
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| “We need to rotate” on 13:56 - Apr 7 with 670 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:45 - Apr 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
Cabango absolutely has better positional sense as a CB than Naughton. Naughton is a right back and will have better positional sense as a right back.
I am good at debating simply because I am conveying fact and common sense. While others bend that to fit their opinion and can be smashed to bits.
Debating is the easiest thing in the world when you are simply stating reality. |
And there’s the crux of it. You seem to be under the impression that Naughton and Guehi have been playing as out and out centre backs. | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:57 - Apr 7 with 670 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:47 - Apr 7 by 34dfgdf54 |
Oh my days. |
Yes a right back definitely has better positioning as a centre back than a natural centre back... must be why we are worse in nearly every defensive department when the right back plays there.
I understand it’s frustrating, but facts are facts. | |
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| “We need to rotate” on 14:00 - Apr 7 with 666 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:56 - Apr 7 by jack247 |
And there’s the crux of it. You seem to be under the impression that Naughton and Guehi have been playing as out and out centre backs. |
Nope, we have been through this many times. You keep saying that’s what I’m thinking, I keep telling you that’s not what I’m thinking.
Cabango plays on the right of the 3 pretty much the same amount as he plays as the centre of the 3. Defensively and offensively we play better when Cabango is there, more possession, more attacking and more efficient in defence.
With the ball the centre backs split, without it they don’t and have to act as centre backs again. What we gain with Naughton with the ball we lose twice over without Cabango without it. That’s reflected in the facts of when both play in that position.
We are repeating a 3 week old conversation. Nothing has changed.
[Post edited 7 Apr 2021 14:02]
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| “We need to rotate” on 14:02 - Apr 7 with 655 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| “We need to rotate” on 13:49 - Apr 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
I didn’t pluck anything out of thin air, Keith who has contacts in the club told us all. It doesn’t contradict the source that I never claimed was watertight. Keith said the package was 700k... IF we get promoted. Both Keith and Transfermarkt seem to be on the same page there.
Having money isn’t what you said. You said he’s had big money, well in actual fact he has had one of the lowest amounts in the league to spend. So you were wrong there weren’t you.
Vendetta against me? You have a vendetta against Cooper. I am proving an inconvenient annoyance to that because while you try and bend the truth and create scenario after scenario to slate him, I put you right.
A bit like when you said that the Americans didn’t appoint Bob Bradley. |
With all due respect to Keith, who I have alot of time for, with how he is running this site and the reasons he is doing it for, that just doesn't wash.
Exactly half way in the spending aren't we? Incorporate the loan fees/wages we are paying out then I would say we aren't doing bad at all.
I haven't got a vendetta against Cooper, I just don't think he's very good with all due respect to him. The points myself and others have raised seem to be coming into fruition, which is why you seem to have added a bit of niggle into your arguments.
I'm just going by not just what Wathan and Mitchelmore reported, but what Pearlman also stated at the time. I'm assuming I'm not allowed to believe what a club official has said, but take what Keith, who does not work for the club as gospel? Yeah that sounds sensible. | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:12 - Apr 7 with 645 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:02 - Apr 7 by 34dfgdf54 |
With all due respect to Keith, who I have alot of time for, with how he is running this site and the reasons he is doing it for, that just doesn't wash.
Exactly half way in the spending aren't we? Incorporate the loan fees/wages we are paying out then I would say we aren't doing bad at all.
I haven't got a vendetta against Cooper, I just don't think he's very good with all due respect to him. The points myself and others have raised seem to be coming into fruition, which is why you seem to have added a bit of niggle into your arguments.
I'm just going by not just what Wathan and Mitchelmore reported, but what Pearlman also stated at the time. I'm assuming I'm not allowed to believe what a club official has said, but take what Keith, who does not work for the club as gospel? Yeah that sounds sensible. |
What do you mean it doesn’t wash? Sounds perfectly logical to me.
No, we are about 5th from bottom from memory. Loan fees are minimal, our most expensive would be Hourihane which apparently is just a shade over 300k, youth loans tend to be very low fees and often free such as Brewster as I told you. We have spent about £3m in 2 seasons, which is down there with the likes of Luton.
Niggle into my arguments? Where? I am simply stating that we are having the same conversations over and over again when nothing has changed.
Wathan and Mitchelmore are journalists, they report what they are told and it’s clear they would be told such a line at the time for obvious reasons. I have zero reason to doubt Keith and the only reason you claim not to is because it proves inconvenient to the point you want to make.
However it’s worth noting that when compiling the spends list I included the full Whittaker package even though I firmly believe it will never be paid. Yet we were still relegation fodder in the spends league. | |
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| “We need to rotate” on 14:15 - Apr 7 with 639 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:00 - Apr 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
Nope, we have been through this many times. You keep saying that’s what I’m thinking, I keep telling you that’s not what I’m thinking.
Cabango plays on the right of the 3 pretty much the same amount as he plays as the centre of the 3. Defensively and offensively we play better when Cabango is there, more possession, more attacking and more efficient in defence.
With the ball the centre backs split, without it they don’t and have to act as centre backs again. What we gain with Naughton with the ball we lose twice over without Cabango without it. That’s reflected in the facts of when both play in that position.
We are repeating a 3 week old conversation. Nothing has changed.
[Post edited 7 Apr 2021 14:02]
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They don’t just ‘split’ do they?
They carry the ball into midfield, affording us numerical advantages. Sometimes Fulton will drop back allowing them more responsiblity on the ball, which is why you often (going back to before our slump) saw both of them in possession in the opposition half.
They cover our wingbacks who were charging down the line 2 months ago. Lose possession and you’re likely to find attackers running at Naughton/Guehi/Cabango out wide.
Naughton is far better in both of those common scenarios.
Out of possession, the role isn’t exactly the same because there are 3 of them.
You keep saying you understand the role, but you haven’t evidenced it.
Cabango, absolutely is better aerially. I doubt anyone disputes that. | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:20 - Apr 7 with 635 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:15 - Apr 7 by jack247 |
They don’t just ‘split’ do they?
They carry the ball into midfield, affording us numerical advantages. Sometimes Fulton will drop back allowing them more responsiblity on the ball, which is why you often (going back to before our slump) saw both of them in possession in the opposition half.
They cover our wingbacks who were charging down the line 2 months ago. Lose possession and you’re likely to find attackers running at Naughton/Guehi/Cabango out wide.
Naughton is far better in both of those common scenarios.
Out of possession, the role isn’t exactly the same because there are 3 of them.
You keep saying you understand the role, but you haven’t evidenced it.
Cabango, absolutely is better aerially. I doubt anyone disputes that. |
As does Cabango when he plays there. As I said Cabango plays in that position almost as much as he plays as the center of the 3. That position doesn’t change when Cabango plays there. I have demonstrated perfectly what that position entails, you just aren’t listening to what I’m saying.
Again, when Cabango plays there - we have more possession as a team, we are more efficient in attack and defence.
So while you keep saying Naughton is better with the ball, he’s clearly worse when we don’t have it. What we lose when Naughton plays is far greater than what we gain when he does. You don’t seem to be understanding that point, which is crazy considering it’s the most important point being made.
I am completely happy to state in some areas we benefit with Naughton being there, but what we do gain in those areas, we lose two fold in other areas which affects the team as a whole far more. The stats clearly show that, over a very fair sample size and shoehorned into any combination anyone has been able to try and think of. [Post edited 7 Apr 2021 14:28]
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| “We need to rotate” on 14:28 - Apr 7 with 628 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:20 - Apr 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
As does Cabango when he plays there. As I said Cabango plays in that position almost as much as he plays as the center of the 3. That position doesn’t change when Cabango plays there. I have demonstrated perfectly what that position entails, you just aren’t listening to what I’m saying.
Again, when Cabango plays there - we have more possession as a team, we are more efficient in attack and defence.
So while you keep saying Naughton is better with the ball, he’s clearly worse when we don’t have it. What we lose when Naughton plays is far greater than what we gain when he does. You don’t seem to be understanding that point, which is crazy considering it’s the most important point being made.
I am completely happy to state in some areas we benefit with Naughton being there, but what we do gain in those areas, we lose two fold in other areas which affects the team as a whole far more. The stats clearly show that, over a very fair sample size and shoehorned into any combination anyone has been able to try and think of. [Post edited 7 Apr 2021 14:28]
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No. You haven’t explained the position at all.
Yes of course Cabango does the same thing when he plays there, that’s the role. He just isn’t as good at it as Naughton.
Naughton gets the nod...
In possession
Defending out wide when the wingbacks are further up the pitch (out of possession)
Covering other teammates (out of possession)(because he reads the game very well and therefore has good positional sense).
Cabango is much better physically and is a threat from our set pieces. | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:32 - Apr 7 with 624 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:28 - Apr 7 by jack247 |
No. You haven’t explained the position at all.
Yes of course Cabango does the same thing when he plays there, that’s the role. He just isn’t as good at it as Naughton.
Naughton gets the nod...
In possession
Defending out wide when the wingbacks are further up the pitch (out of possession)
Covering other teammates (out of possession)(because he reads the game very well and therefore has good positional sense).
Cabango is much better physically and is a threat from our set pieces. |
Of course I have. But my point is that the position doesn’t change its requirements when Cabango plays there or when Naughton plays there, the responsibilities are the same. What positives Naughton brings to the position is overshadowed by what we lose when Cabango doesn’t play there.
Again, when we isolate every game Cabango plays in that position and every game Naughton plays there and compare the two - we play better when Cabango plays there. So while you may well be right that we benefit in some areas, we clearly don’t in others.. and to a far greater degree.
Do I really have to list the areas we are better in as a team again? Seems like I’ve done it a million times already. That hasn’t changed.
You are welcome to disagree, but we are factually a more successful team this season when Cabango plays there over Naughton. Bottom line. That’s not an opinion but a statement of fact. [Post edited 7 Apr 2021 14:37]
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| “We need to rotate” on 14:47 - Apr 7 with 608 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:32 - Apr 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
Of course I have. But my point is that the position doesn’t change its requirements when Cabango plays there or when Naughton plays there, the responsibilities are the same. What positives Naughton brings to the position is overshadowed by what we lose when Cabango doesn’t play there.
Again, when we isolate every game Cabango plays in that position and every game Naughton plays there and compare the two - we play better when Cabango plays there. So while you may well be right that we benefit in some areas, we clearly don’t in others.. and to a far greater degree.
Do I really have to list the areas we are better in as a team again? Seems like I’ve done it a million times already. That hasn’t changed.
You are welcome to disagree, but we are factually a more successful team this season when Cabango plays there over Naughton. Bottom line. That’s not an opinion but a statement of fact. [Post edited 7 Apr 2021 14:37]
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Of course the requirements are the same. Naughton is better at most of them. That’s the point. It’s why Cooper picks him when he’s available and we play 532 | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:49 - Apr 7 with 606 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:47 - Apr 7 by jack247 |
Of course the requirements are the same. Naughton is better at most of them. That’s the point. It’s why Cooper picks him when he’s available and we play 532 |
In your opinion he is better.
However when Cabango plays there instead, we benefit as a team in nearly every department. Just a fact.
We aren’t going to agree. | |
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| “We need to rotate” on 14:54 - Apr 7 with 602 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:12 - Apr 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
What do you mean it doesn’t wash? Sounds perfectly logical to me.
No, we are about 5th from bottom from memory. Loan fees are minimal, our most expensive would be Hourihane which apparently is just a shade over 300k, youth loans tend to be very low fees and often free such as Brewster as I told you. We have spent about £3m in 2 seasons, which is down there with the likes of Luton.
Niggle into my arguments? Where? I am simply stating that we are having the same conversations over and over again when nothing has changed.
Wathan and Mitchelmore are journalists, they report what they are told and it’s clear they would be told such a line at the time for obvious reasons. I have zero reason to doubt Keith and the only reason you claim not to is because it proves inconvenient to the point you want to make.
However it’s worth noting that when compiling the spends list I included the full Whittaker package even though I firmly believe it will never be paid. Yet we were still relegation fodder in the spends league. |
There are 11 clubs who have spent less than us, and four others pretty much identical, I'd argue if loan fees were included we would be well into top half.
That, plus the likes of Ayew, Grimes, Naughton etc already here, it's not a bad platform to work off. | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:54 - Apr 7 with 602 views | jack247 |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:49 - Apr 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
In your opinion he is better.
However when Cabango plays there instead, we benefit as a team in nearly every department. Just a fact.
We aren’t going to agree. |
And in Steve Coopers.
He may not be held in the highest regard on here at the moment, but I’d still defer to his football knowledge. | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:56 - Apr 7 with 601 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:54 - Apr 7 by jack247 |
And in Steve Coopers.
He may not be held in the highest regard on here at the moment, but I’d still defer to his football knowledge. |
Yes absolutely. People are welcome to have any opinions they like.
But again, we are factually better in almost every department when Cabango plays there over Naughton, regardless of any opinion either of us or Cooper has. | |
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| “We need to rotate” on 15:01 - Apr 7 with 592 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| “We need to rotate” on 14:54 - Apr 7 by 34dfgdf54 |
There are 11 clubs who have spent less than us, and four others pretty much identical, I'd argue if loan fees were included we would be well into top half.
That, plus the likes of Ayew, Grimes, Naughton etc already here, it's not a bad platform to work off. |
Not sure where you are getting that from.
During Coopers reign, if we compare to the rest of the league in transfer spends, it looks like this:-
Brentford 37.7m
Bristol C 29.66m
Forest 20.6m
Cardiff 19.35m
Birmingham 16.75m
Reading 15.11m
Huddersfield 12.33m
Derby 11.25m
Norwich 9.9m
Barnsley 8.33m
Stoke 8.01m
Blackburn 6.7m
QPR 6.45m
Boro 5.87m
Preston 4.83m
Swansea 2.27m <<<<<<<
Sheff Wed 1.99m
Millwall 1.76m
Luton 1.63m
Coventry 1.35m
Rotherham 250k
If you have the loan fees for all the championship clubs to hand I’ll happily add them in. | |
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| “We need to rotate” on 15:10 - Apr 7 with 583 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| “We need to rotate” on 15:01 - Apr 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
Not sure where you are getting that from.
During Coopers reign, if we compare to the rest of the league in transfer spends, it looks like this:-
Brentford 37.7m
Bristol C 29.66m
Forest 20.6m
Cardiff 19.35m
Birmingham 16.75m
Reading 15.11m
Huddersfield 12.33m
Derby 11.25m
Norwich 9.9m
Barnsley 8.33m
Stoke 8.01m
Blackburn 6.7m
QPR 6.45m
Boro 5.87m
Preston 4.83m
Swansea 2.27m <<<<<<<
Sheff Wed 1.99m
Millwall 1.76m
Luton 1.63m
Coventry 1.35m
Rotherham 250k
If you have the loan fees for all the championship clubs to hand I’ll happily add them in. |
I'm on about this season.
https://www.transfermarkt.co.u | | | |
| “We need to rotate” on 15:15 - Apr 7 with 577 views | Dr_Parnassus |
It doesn’t matter just this season though does it (which is also a pittance). We are trying to determine what Cooper has had to work with.
So far he has spent what is listed in my table.
Again happy to update if you can find loan fees. | |
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