| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? 16:03 - Sep 26 with 4309 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Something I touched upon last week was that we are getting our best results when we are not instructed to only look for the short ball and not told to keep the ball at all costs.
We moved away from that against Bristol City against RM’s wishes according to him, but secured our first win. Of course many of us had been calling for that mixed style for weeks prior and thought that may be the catalyst to him learning that even the best tiki taka style has long balls when required.
Unfortunately he/we reverted back to type and we put in the same displays as we saw prior to that. We started the Luton game like that too, until halftime. We came out of that tunnel far more direct and were more than happy to smash the ball away, ping a long pass or direct one into the channels.
I think Russ needed that second game to show that maybe his short passing at all costs way was not the best way to go and we completely changed against Huddersfield. Still didn’t create as much as I would like a side as talented as us to create, I am addressing the second half in the main, but there was far less focus on meaningless possession, far less focus on short passing and we certainly seemed to control the game more.
In our only two league wins this season, they rank as our highest and second highest in terms of long ball % of any league games we have played this season and rank alongside (and often higher than) what we have been seeing for the last couple of seasons. I will put the 2 lowest also for comparison…
Bristol City WIN - 66 long balls (14% of our pass composition)
Huddersfield WIN - 70 long balls (13.8% of our pass composition)
Stoke LOSS - 51 long balls (6.7% of our pass composition)
Hull DRAW - 29 long balls (4.1% of our pass composition)
In terms of possession, both two league wins also rank as our lowest and second lowest possession % in any league match this season. Again I will put the highest two for comparison.
Huddersfield WIN - 54% possession
Bristol City WIN - 55% possession
Blackburn LOSS - 72% possession
Luton Town DRAW - 73% possession
So it’s pretty undeniable that our two best league results have come when we have adapted a more pragmatic approach, where we have less meaningless possession and aren’t afraid to mix the style with long balls. Our only two league wins have come when we have had our least possession and most long balls, that’s stark.
So in summary, my hope is that Martin is indeed learning and is adaptable contrary to what we were told and we haven’t completely thrown the baby out with the bath water and there is a greater focus on substance than style than there was at the start.
Positive signs if we can keep moving forward with this. [Post edited 26 Sep 2021 16:22]
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 23:14 - Sep 26 with 768 views | Chief |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 23:02 - Sep 26 by magicdaps10 |
Well i and many others disagree. |
How do you know what others think of that post then? |  |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 23:16 - Sep 26 with 759 views | magicdaps10 |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 23:12 - Sep 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
So you agree with the points I made in the OP then?
You just think its sheer random coincidence of unbelievable improbability?
If that's the case then great. But you have the extremely unlikely opinion. The argument of random coincidence is statistically astronomical. |
To be honest P, I couldn't really comment without looking into the facts myself but I am glad you are showing signs of positivity.... Well done.
Its good to be happy and it breeds positivity... Not being so creates many a problem that I am sure you aware of. |  |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 23:24 - Sep 26 with 742 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 23:16 - Sep 26 by magicdaps10 |
To be honest P, I couldn't really comment without looking into the facts myself but I am glad you are showing signs of positivity.... Well done.
Its good to be happy and it breeds positivity... Not being so creates many a problem that I am sure you aware of. |
So you are now saying that you are happy that I have posted such a positive thread? I can't keep up with your mind changes.
Also worth noting that you are also saying (and thus recognising) that if anything is deemed negative, despite at the time being 21st and 1 win in 8....then it will cause problems?
Hmm right.
I think I will continue just saying it as it is not caring who likes or dislikes my views if that's ok? [Post edited 26 Sep 2021 23:38]
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 23:29 - Sep 26 with 720 views | AndyCole |
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Yet another excellent thread which separates the footballing wheat from the chaff / chavs. Martin is getting it. He's abandoning the needlessly puerile, self indulgent mini brand Martin for the bigger picture. Brand Martins.
The footballing illiterate need to stick to the other site.
Martin is now very slowly beginning to take on board the right ways. The Swansea Way as prescribed by his active sponsors, pulling his strings, on and off the pitch. |  |
| Pro free speech and alternative opinions -
Anti gang-bullying and poor modding thereof -
Will always make a stand against those who consistently choose to turn a blind eye |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 23:43 - Sep 26 with 724 views | Dr_Parnassus |
vs Luton 73%
vs Blackburn 72%
vs Hull 70%
vs Stoke 64%
vs Millwall 64%
vs Sheff Utd 63%
vs Preston 60%
..........................................
vs Bristol City 55%
vs Huddersfield 54%
The two wins being below the line. [Post edited 27 Sep 2021 0:11]
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 23:53 - Sep 26 with 708 views | AndyCole |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 23:43 - Sep 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
vs Luton 73%
vs Blackburn 72%
vs Hull 70%
vs Stoke 64%
vs Millwall 64%
vs Sheff Utd 63%
vs Preston 60%
..........................................
vs Bristol City 55%
vs Huddersfield 54%
The two wins being below the line. [Post edited 27 Sep 2021 0:11]
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Just to be clear:
- The lowest % = our best result (and 1st half (only) performance))
- The highest % = our worst, most embarrassing performance in some decades
At least Martin is beginning to show glimpses of learning from his masters. | |
| Pro free speech and alternative opinions -
Anti gang-bullying and poor modding thereof -
Will always make a stand against those who consistently choose to turn a blind eye |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 07:08 - Sep 27 with 649 views | ItchySphincter |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 23:43 - Sep 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
vs Luton 73%
vs Blackburn 72%
vs Hull 70%
vs Stoke 64%
vs Millwall 64%
vs Sheff Utd 63%
vs Preston 60%
..........................................
vs Bristol City 55%
vs Huddersfield 54%
The two wins being below the line. [Post edited 27 Sep 2021 0:11]
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It would be interesting to see this particular table of possession v result continued throughout the season. I don’t think it’s quite as black and white as it appears, for example first half possession v Hudds was around 75% when the winning goal was scored so it was natural that we would concede some possession in the second half as they came looking for an equalizer, but it is interesting nonetheless.
I think we’re a bit of a way off from being settled but as I say, patience is the key this season and we’re getting there. Swansea have never had a problem with a long pass at the right time whilst playing a possession game. I think Martin is adaptable providing we have taken control of the game and the opponent, but he has a clear plan as how to gain that control. |  |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:16 - Sep 27 with 635 views | magicdaps10 |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 23:53 - Sep 26 by AndyCole |
Just to be clear:
- The lowest % = our best result (and 1st half (only) performance))
- The highest % = our worst, most embarrassing performance in some decades
At least Martin is beginning to show glimpses of learning from his masters. |
And who would his masters be? | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:56 - Sep 27 with 611 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 07:08 - Sep 27 by ItchySphincter |
It would be interesting to see this particular table of possession v result continued throughout the season. I don’t think it’s quite as black and white as it appears, for example first half possession v Hudds was around 75% when the winning goal was scored so it was natural that we would concede some possession in the second half as they came looking for an equalizer, but it is interesting nonetheless.
I think we’re a bit of a way off from being settled but as I say, patience is the key this season and we’re getting there. Swansea have never had a problem with a long pass at the right time whilst playing a possession game. I think Martin is adaptable providing we have taken control of the game and the opponent, but he has a clear plan as how to gain that control. |
It is as black and white as that.
It is simply a fact that our two league wins has come when we have had significantly less possession. That is coupled with having a larger long ball game, they tend to go hand in hand as you are willing to give it back to the opposition more.
However you are handing it over in less dangerous situations than if they won it back when we were knocking it around in our defensive third.
We scored after 17 mins vs Huddersfield, it’s ludicrous to only count possession prior to the opening goal. People are clearly trying to shoehorn parts of games as opposed to using the complete data of the whole game as it is showing, quite clearly, we are at our best and most successful when not passing 800 times a game and 75% possession.
It’s not an obscure point and the reasons for that are obvious, the exact same reasons many were saying they didn’t want us to do that week in week out. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:59 - Sep 27 with 610 views | Badlands |
We created all our chances from passages of passing and possession.
A long pass is how long? During the possession phases the ball was often passed 30 metres across the pitch ... is this a long pass or keeping possession pass.
Also, most long forward balls were made in the second half when we tired (metal and physically), Huddersfield closed off our midfield but only one clear chance was created. All our chances came from phase of keep ball and score passing. |  |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 09:12 - Sep 27 with 608 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:59 - Sep 27 by Badlands |
We created all our chances from passages of passing and possession.
A long pass is how long? During the possession phases the ball was often passed 30 metres across the pitch ... is this a long pass or keeping possession pass.
Also, most long forward balls were made in the second half when we tired (metal and physically), Huddersfield closed off our midfield but only one clear chance was created. All our chances came from phase of keep ball and score passing. |
That’s football, that’s often the case. Many of our goals last season came from passages of passing and possession too. It’s rare we did a Dan James style counter attack or a 40 yard thunderbolt.
I don’t think people are quite understanding what is being shown here. These clear facts and trends aren’t suggesting we are Stoke of the 1990’s.
It’s stating that we were not hamstrung by short passing at all times like we had been earlier on in the season (4% of total passes were long in one particular game - that’s so unbalanced).
It means that when we are willing to clear our lines and mix our passes, we get caught in dangerous areas far less. When you clear the ball into opposition areas that don’t represent an immediate threat as opposed to keeping it and trying/risking working your way out of it… two things happen.
1) Your immediate possession stats go down. Because you are cutting out that opening third play. You are also more often giving it to the opposition as not all of your clearances and long balls will be accurate, meaning the scale will be tipped much further in the possession stakes than if you were playing 95% short passes.
This is exactly what we are seeing here as the two wins are vastly different from the rest in the possession department.
2) of course it also means your long ball % composition of your total match passes starts to go up. They are “bedfellows”, they go hand in hand. Again, this is exactly what you see in our two wins.
It’s not sheer coincidence that this is the pattern both times we got our only two league wins out of 9.
Recognising that obvious fact doesn’t mean you are admitting we are a long ball specialist team, nor does it say our goals will come from long balls. Stating how we scored is irrelevant to what is being presented here.
Our goal could come from a flowing 50 pass move, the team goal of the century… but if we are to make that goal count and turn it into points, it is clearly better if a goal like that is scored in a game where we have ditched the short pass and possession shackles and willing to mix the passes and clear our lines when we need to.
Doing that does not mean you aren’t a passing side and doing that does not mean you don’t play good football. They aren’t remotely linked to that conclusion. [Post edited 27 Sep 2021 9:32]
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 09:25 - Sep 27 with 596 views | Dr_Parnassus |
To clear the above too…
It’s also not saying “we cannot win with 75% possession and 96% short passes’’ either, it’s not a predictive model. I am sure there will be occasions when we do and the opposition doesn’t punish us or catch us in our own third, but the law of averages say they probably will quite often.
It’s also not saying “we will win every game when we have limited possession and aren’t afraid to hit long balls”.
It’s saying WE ARE (key term) more successful in games where we aren’t afraid to mix our passes and don’t insist on meaningless and risky possession in dangerous areas.
It isn’t predicting anything, it’s telling you what HAS happened, Factually. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 09:32 - Sep 27 with 594 views | ItchySphincter |
Playing a long ball does not mean we are not playing a possession game. It is natural to relinquish territory and possession to a team seeking an equaliser, as discussed in the past. Lower possession stats in this case means lower than previous games, not lower than the opposition in this game. Overall we still had more possession than our opponent, that is the key stat. [Post edited 27 Sep 2021 9:41]
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 09:45 - Sep 27 with 586 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 09:32 - Sep 27 by ItchySphincter |
Playing a long ball does not mean we are not playing a possession game. It is natural to relinquish territory and possession to a team seeking an equaliser, as discussed in the past. Lower possession stats in this case means lower than previous games, not lower than the opposition in this game. Overall we still had more possession than our opponent, that is the key stat. [Post edited 27 Sep 2021 9:41]
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Who has said we aren’t playing a possession game?
People are taking facts and inventing their own accusations to argue against.
Under Cooper someone on here last week said we averaged 51% of possession, I haven’t checked that personally but wouldn’t hugely surprise me. I wouldn’t describe us as having a focus on possession at all costs though just because we have more than the opposition on average.
Again, these facts aren’t stating we aren’t a good side, don’t pass well, aren’t nice to watch… or any other conclusions people seem to be making.
They are factually stating that WE ARE more successful when we have a willingness to play a long ball more often when needed and therefore when we don’t have a focus on keeping the ball at all costs. One is substance over style the other is style over substance - which has been the main complaint.
That’s not to say you can’t have a lot of style either though. It means decisions are made in keeping with the match situations rather than a rigid game plan with a strict set of playing rules.
You seem to want to be offended by the facts as opposed to trying to understand them. Again, accepting this isn’t somehow then recognising we are a Tony Pullis side when we win, it means we play smarter when we win. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:49 - Sep 27 with 529 views | vetchonian |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 19:26 - Sep 26 by swan_si |
Here's an important stat for you, Swansea scored goal 1 - Huddersfield scored 0.
That may have had an influence in the way we played the second half, all the talk of getting our 1st league win in front of the home supporters before the game, and a lead to defend, it must have been a massive boost to get that monkey off their back.
Onwards and upwards.
" the guy that settles arguments " I nearly choked.  |
Absolutely it is the most improtant stat of all
We won....we got 3 points....we only socred one goal but it was more than the oppostion so we got the points.
Funny though ......its ok for Russ to one by only one goal?
I didnt see the game Saturday couldnt be there because of a long standing commitment...only seen the videos....so Im not going to comment too much...but we did seem to play a long ball more what what the highlights show. Nice passing move for the goal though | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 18:31 - Sep 27 with 503 views | ItchySphincter |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 09:45 - Sep 27 by Dr_Parnassus |
Who has said we aren’t playing a possession game?
People are taking facts and inventing their own accusations to argue against.
Under Cooper someone on here last week said we averaged 51% of possession, I haven’t checked that personally but wouldn’t hugely surprise me. I wouldn’t describe us as having a focus on possession at all costs though just because we have more than the opposition on average.
Again, these facts aren’t stating we aren’t a good side, don’t pass well, aren’t nice to watch… or any other conclusions people seem to be making.
They are factually stating that WE ARE more successful when we have a willingness to play a long ball more often when needed and therefore when we don’t have a focus on keeping the ball at all costs. One is substance over style the other is style over substance - which has been the main complaint.
That’s not to say you can’t have a lot of style either though. It means decisions are made in keeping with the match situations rather than a rigid game plan with a strict set of playing rules.
You seem to want to be offended by the facts as opposed to trying to understand them. Again, accepting this isn’t somehow then recognising we are a Tony Pullis side when we win, it means we play smarter when we win. |
Well I’m not actually arguing anything. I’m giving my opinion. You are presenting yours as facts, which is fine if that’s what you want to do, your choice, but maybe you need to recalibrate yourself as to what your understanding of what an argument is. ðŸ‘🻠| |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 22:36 - Sep 27 with 459 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 18:31 - Sep 27 by ItchySphincter |
Well I’m not actually arguing anything. I’m giving my opinion. You are presenting yours as facts, which is fine if that’s what you want to do, your choice, but maybe you need to recalibrate yourself as to what your understanding of what an argument is. ðŸ‘🻠|
But they are facts.
It’s not my opinion that we are more successful when we play a more mixed game and have less possession.
If I were to make a prediction on it, such as “I think we will continue doing this too”… that would be an opinion.
I am simply telling you what has happened. No recalibration needed. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 00:15 - Sep 28 with 438 views | ItchySphincter |
We’ve had more possession and than the opposition in all our games, but if we’ve won it’s because we had less possession than in games we haven’t won. I think that’s what your argument is. Stupid argument when put simply.
I happen to agree that there’s nothing wrong with mixing it up. The long ball this season is obviously more decisive than the hit and hope, clear the lines of Cooperball. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 00:30 - Sep 28 with 429 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 00:15 - Sep 28 by ItchySphincter |
We’ve had more possession and than the opposition in all our games, but if we’ve won it’s because we had less possession than in games we haven’t won. I think that’s what your argument is. Stupid argument when put simply.
I happen to agree that there’s nothing wrong with mixing it up. The long ball this season is obviously more decisive than the hit and hope, clear the lines of Cooperball. |
I don’t understand your summary, let alone it being my point.
My point is pretty easy to understand I thought.
The complaint for weeks, since game 1 against Blackburn… was that we were having too much needless possession and we seem afraid to go long when under pressure. As a result we were seeing defeats and 75% possession or such like.
In the games we have won this year we have a much healthier balance of long balls (akin to the mix we saw under Cooper) and as a result our possession may well be lower than normal (significantly in this case) but it’s a smarter game plan with the ball in our danger areas for less time due to our willingness to escape using that long ball.
Straight forward really and quite obviously the case. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:02 - Sep 28 with 383 views | magicdaps10 |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 23:14 - Sep 26 by Chief |
How do you know what others think of that post then? |
Because I have spoken to some. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:04 - Sep 28 with 382 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:02 - Sep 28 by magicdaps10 |
Because I have spoken to some. |
Well it’s very nice on this occasion you agree with my post and commended me for my positivity.
Nice to get along. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:13 - Sep 28 with 373 views | magicdaps10 |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:04 - Sep 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
Well it’s very nice on this occasion you agree with my post and commended me for my positivity.
Nice to get along. |
Well if you listened to us earlier and had patience and understanding of the whole situation then it would have happened sooner.
Transition doesn't happen overnight butt 👠| |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:23 - Sep 28 with 369 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:13 - Sep 28 by magicdaps10 |
Well if you listened to us earlier and had patience and understanding of the whole situation then it would have happened sooner.
Transition doesn't happen overnight butt 👠|
But I was told that this way of playing was not possible under Martin.
We were told he will never go long and he wasn’t able to adapt to this way, which is of course the way that we were calling for. A sensible game plan with a mixed, direct style able to be pragmatic and not just fur coat and no knickers.
The patience that was asked of us was for the first plan, that was never going to work for the reasons stated at the time.
Having the ball so much in your defensive third was suicide. It appears Martin now agrees, as do you finally. No doubt others too but are less willing to admit it.
Let’s hope this is the way forward now and we don’t revert to type like we did after Bristol City where it appears the players showed him the best way to get a result. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:38 - Sep 28 with 346 views | magicdaps10 |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:23 - Sep 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
But I was told that this way of playing was not possible under Martin.
We were told he will never go long and he wasn’t able to adapt to this way, which is of course the way that we were calling for. A sensible game plan with a mixed, direct style able to be pragmatic and not just fur coat and no knickers.
The patience that was asked of us was for the first plan, that was never going to work for the reasons stated at the time.
Having the ball so much in your defensive third was suicide. It appears Martin now agrees, as do you finally. No doubt others too but are less willing to admit it.
Let’s hope this is the way forward now and we don’t revert to type like we did after Bristol City where it appears the players showed him the best way to get a result. |
Think it would be naive to judge after 9 league games... Transition takes time.
Too early to judge. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:43 - Sep 28 with 345 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 08:38 - Sep 28 by magicdaps10 |
Think it would be naive to judge after 9 league games... Transition takes time.
Too early to judge. |
To judge what?
What was said is that we need to be a bit more pragmatic, spend less time concentrated in our defensive third having pointless possession, don’t be afraid to go long when needed and be a bit more direct at times.
That appears to be an assessment our manager now agrees with. It’s never to early to state plan A looks flawed, Martin has also made a judgement on that by the looks of it. | |
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