| Russia invade Ukraine 14:17 - Dec 23 with 151388 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
Discuss.
Also why is Putin always described in the media as this rugged strongman? He’s barely five foot tall with his high heels on.
But that’s another debate.
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:02 - May 13 with 702 views | Scotia |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 15:52 - May 13 by controversial_jack |
You would really have to understand the root causes of this conflict to debate, and you don't. It's black and white to you, Putin bad, Zelensky good. The west good Russia bad.There's no debating with simplicity like that |
To have a binary debate like that you'd have to think invading a country can be justified and I don't.
Putin is bad and his government are bad, but not Russia per se. That doesn't mean anyone else is good.
Other countries not behaving as they should does not justify what Putin has done. I genuinely don't understand how you think it does. What happens in Ukraine is for the Ukrainian people to decide not a jealous Russian dwarf dictator. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:15 - May 13 with 691 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:02 - May 13 by Scotia |
To have a binary debate like that you'd have to think invading a country can be justified and I don't.
Putin is bad and his government are bad, but not Russia per se. That doesn't mean anyone else is good.
Other countries not behaving as they should does not justify what Putin has done. I genuinely don't understand how you think it does. What happens in Ukraine is for the Ukrainian people to decide not a jealous Russian dwarf dictator. |
Does the same go for Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria or are you quite happy with your own set of double standards?? |  |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:04 - May 13 with 677 views | Scotia |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 16:15 - May 13 by Brynmill_Jack |
Does the same go for Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria or are you quite happy with your own set of double standards?? |
Yes.
Although they are very different scenarios. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:23 - May 13 with 672 views | Lorax |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 14:47 - May 13 by controversial_jack |
Thye use of the term whataboutery, is an excuse to not carry on the debate |
No, trying to justify something happening today by bringing up something from 50 years ago that isn't relevant is whataboutery. The debate can carry on. Not that there's much to debate for anybody with any sense.
The Russian invasion of Ukraine, the targeting of civilian areas, the murdering of civilians in cold blood (shooting them in the backs) are war crimes which nobody should try to justify. Not even on a wind up. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:25 - May 13 with 668 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:04 - May 13 by Scotia |
Yes.
Although they are very different scenarios. |
But no condemnation from yourself almighty one | |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:31 - May 13 with 660 views | Gwyn737 |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:23 - May 13 by Lorax |
No, trying to justify something happening today by bringing up something from 50 years ago that isn't relevant is whataboutery. The debate can carry on. Not that there's much to debate for anybody with any sense.
The Russian invasion of Ukraine, the targeting of civilian areas, the murdering of civilians in cold blood (shooting them in the backs) are war crimes which nobody should try to justify. Not even on a wind up. |
Yep, totally agree with this.
The overarching fact here is that Russia invaded a sovereign state. They are the bad guys.
You can hold that thought without cheerleading certain factions of Ukraine. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:36 - May 13 with 653 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:31 - May 13 by Gwyn737 |
Yep, totally agree with this.
The overarching fact here is that Russia invaded a sovereign state. They are the bad guys.
You can hold that thought without cheerleading certain factions of Ukraine. |
Well they’ve arguably invaded two sovereign states - the Donetsk Peoples Republic and the Lughansk Peoples Rebublic - but the population have been under 8 years of Ukrainian bombardment and have lost 15000 people . Maybe it’s not so much an invasion as an intervention??? | |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:44 - May 13 with 653 views | Scotia |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:36 - May 13 by Brynmill_Jack |
Well they’ve arguably invaded two sovereign states - the Donetsk Peoples Republic and the Lughansk Peoples Rebublic - but the population have been under 8 years of Ukrainian bombardment and have lost 15000 people . Maybe it’s not so much an invasion as an intervention??? |
If its an intervention to protect the BDPR and LPR why has the basis of every Putin speech relating to the invasion been the risk posed to Russia by the expansion of NATO?
Why attempt to take Kyiv? Why target civilians in Odesa? Why do they want Snake Island? Etc, etc. | | | |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:56 - May 13 with 642 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:44 - May 13 by Scotia |
If its an intervention to protect the BDPR and LPR why has the basis of every Putin speech relating to the invasion been the risk posed to Russia by the expansion of NATO?
Why attempt to take Kyiv? Why target civilians in Odesa? Why do they want Snake Island? Etc, etc. |
They fooled everyone by looking like Kiev was their objective - that drew fire away from the Donbas and enabled the Russian forces and easier time entering the region. Tactically shrewd. | |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 18:28 - May 13 with 626 views | raynor94 |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:56 - May 13 by Brynmill_Jack |
They fooled everyone by looking like Kiev was their objective - that drew fire away from the Donbas and enabled the Russian forces and easier time entering the region. Tactically shrewd. |
But cost thousands of Russian soldiers their lives.
Great plan, but there again their just fodder to Putin |  |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 19:15 - May 13 with 611 views | Scotia |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:56 - May 13 by Brynmill_Jack |
They fooled everyone by looking like Kiev was their objective - that drew fire away from the Donbas and enabled the Russian forces and easier time entering the region. Tactically shrewd. |
No they didn't. They fooled the people who believe Russian propaganda. That's why they've made very little ground.
They can't even cross a river for crying out loud. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 20:48 - May 13 with 585 views | majorraglan |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:36 - May 13 by Brynmill_Jack |
Well they’ve arguably invaded two sovereign states - the Donetsk Peoples Republic and the Lughansk Peoples Rebublic - but the population have been under 8 years of Ukrainian bombardment and have lost 15000 people . Maybe it’s not so much an invasion as an intervention??? |
Donetsk was under 40% ethnic Russians when the separatists took over the Government buildings and subsequently declared independence, Luhansk had a similar proportion of ethnic Russians. You could look at it the other way and argue the Ukrainians are seeking to liberate the 60+% who’ve had Russia imposed on them.
What the Russians are doing is inexcusable and beyond any justification. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 20:48 - May 13 with 584 views | Lorax |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 17:36 - May 13 by Brynmill_Jack |
Well they’ve arguably invaded two sovereign states - the Donetsk Peoples Republic and the Lughansk Peoples Rebublic - but the population have been under 8 years of Ukrainian bombardment and have lost 15000 people . Maybe it’s not so much an invasion as an intervention??? |
That is just more blatant lying. The ethnic Ukrainians who make up the majority population in those areas fought back against an Ethnic Russian uprising.
The 15000 deaths are not all ethnic Russians, in fact of all deaths less than 7000 are said to be on the separatists side.
They were not even sovereign states but regions of Ukraine according to international law. Putin took 8 years to try and claim they were now countries in their own right, voicing this only on 22/2 this year.
You are just a Russian mouthpiece. An apologist, a Haw Haw.
How can you show such support for Russia when it's doing such terrible things.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/credible-evidence-of-sexual-violence-agains | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 21:01 - May 13 with 572 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 20:48 - May 13 by Lorax |
That is just more blatant lying. The ethnic Ukrainians who make up the majority population in those areas fought back against an Ethnic Russian uprising.
The 15000 deaths are not all ethnic Russians, in fact of all deaths less than 7000 are said to be on the separatists side.
They were not even sovereign states but regions of Ukraine according to international law. Putin took 8 years to try and claim they were now countries in their own right, voicing this only on 22/2 this year.
You are just a Russian mouthpiece. An apologist, a Haw Haw.
How can you show such support for Russia when it's doing such terrible things.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/credible-evidence-of-sexual-violence-agains |
So the Ukrainians have been shelling their own people for the last 8 years? Superb logic once again from you. Ethnic Russians who speak Russian - it was when Ukraine downgraded the Russian languages status (and later tried to ban it) that these people had enough and VOTED to declare themselves independent.
It’s clear you’re clueless. Mariupol is the furthest west city and it’s almost exactly a 50-50 split Ukrainian and Russian but Russian is the language the vast majority speak.
The Azov regiment are executing Russian Officers and merely kneecapping rank and file Russian infantry - how can you turn a blind eye to that? What atrocities are the Russians carrying out? Let’s have some proof not the hearsay you peddle on here .
And don’t come back with the mass graves - that’s an utter myth. | |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 21:28 - May 13 with 563 views | Lorax |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 21:01 - May 13 by Brynmill_Jack |
So the Ukrainians have been shelling their own people for the last 8 years? Superb logic once again from you. Ethnic Russians who speak Russian - it was when Ukraine downgraded the Russian languages status (and later tried to ban it) that these people had enough and VOTED to declare themselves independent.
It’s clear you’re clueless. Mariupol is the furthest west city and it’s almost exactly a 50-50 split Ukrainian and Russian but Russian is the language the vast majority speak.
The Azov regiment are executing Russian Officers and merely kneecapping rank and file Russian infantry - how can you turn a blind eye to that? What atrocities are the Russians carrying out? Let’s have some proof not the hearsay you peddle on here .
And don’t come back with the mass graves - that’s an utter myth. |
No, the Ukrainians have been shelling the Russian separatists just as any other government would shell an attempted violent coup.
58% of the people in the Donbas are ethnic Ukrainian.
Of course Russian is spoken very widely, that was decades of Soviet rule for you. Not to forget the forced removal of Tatars from Crimea to be replaced with Russian citizens.
If the language most spoken indicates nationality of a country then we live in England, you are English, see, it doesn't quite work that way.
As to the rest of it, nothing I post will ever be enough for you because you will dismiss it as hearsay even when it is being broadcast across the world. You only want to believe Putin because you are a Russian mouthpiece
PS, you do understand that if the Russians hadn't invaded the Ukrainians wouldn't be doing anything to them. No, not mass graves,
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/credible-evidence-of-sexual-violence-agains
You do know, if it comes from a mass media source, it is not hearsay if it's reported as fact and backed up by evidence?
Oh, hang on, mass graves,
https://nypost.com/2022/04/04/ukrainian-mayor-found-executed-as-images-of-mass-g
One last question, how did 36% of the population manage to outvote 64% of the population? The answer is simple, only Russian passport holders were allowed to vote by the separatists.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-elections-donbas-ukraine-voting/31464658.html | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 21:29 - May 13 with 563 views | Boundy |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 21:01 - May 13 by Brynmill_Jack |
So the Ukrainians have been shelling their own people for the last 8 years? Superb logic once again from you. Ethnic Russians who speak Russian - it was when Ukraine downgraded the Russian languages status (and later tried to ban it) that these people had enough and VOTED to declare themselves independent.
It’s clear you’re clueless. Mariupol is the furthest west city and it’s almost exactly a 50-50 split Ukrainian and Russian but Russian is the language the vast majority speak.
The Azov regiment are executing Russian Officers and merely kneecapping rank and file Russian infantry - how can you turn a blind eye to that? What atrocities are the Russians carrying out? Let’s have some proof not the hearsay you peddle on here .
And don’t come back with the mass graves - that’s an utter myth. |
talking about proof , can you back this claim you've made.
"The Azov regiment are executing Russian Officers and merely kneecapping rank and file Russian infantry" it must be somewhere on the internet | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 21:47 - May 13 with 554 views | Lorax |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 21:29 - May 13 by Boundy |
talking about proof , can you back this claim you've made.
"The Azov regiment are executing Russian Officers and merely kneecapping rank and file Russian infantry" it must be somewhere on the internet |
When he says beheading and kneecapping i think the truth is just that Azov are killing Russian troops and officers during the fighting.
I can't find anything to suggest Azov are committing war crimes but that doesn't mean they are not. In fact, in the face of such awful Russian behaviour, I'd be surprised if Ukrainians weren't doing bad things too, for revenge. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 09:40 - May 14 with 514 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 21:29 - May 13 by Boundy |
talking about proof , can you back this claim you've made.
"The Azov regiment are executing Russian Officers and merely kneecapping rank and file Russian infantry" it must be somewhere on the internet |
I’ve seen it with my own eyes on video. I’ll try to find it - if I can’t you’ll have to take my word for it or call me a liar. Either way I don’t care. | |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 09:49 - May 14 with 514 views | Boundy |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 21:47 - May 13 by Lorax |
When he says beheading and kneecapping i think the truth is just that Azov are killing Russian troops and officers during the fighting.
I can't find anything to suggest Azov are committing war crimes but that doesn't mean they are not. In fact, in the face of such awful Russian behaviour, I'd be surprised if Ukrainians weren't doing bad things too, for revenge. |
I don't don't doubt that at all , instant social media and historical dislike/hatred towards the Russiains will have had an impact and in the fog of war its not unknown to dispatch someone whilst in rage after hearing witnessing the death of a friend, even "professional " soldiers have a breaking point . The British Military Police were investigating 137 incidents of alleged war crimes by British soldiers in Iraq3 and several soldiers have subsequently been convicted. The Secretary of State for Defence recently called on the British people to ‘be slower to condemn and quicker to understand’ Anyone who has been under severe duress will have an inkling of the pressures that's why a lot of ex service personnel bottle things up because if you weren't "there" how could you possibly understand . | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 10:32 - May 14 with 497 views | controversial_jack |
There's no doubt the AZOV brigade are brutal NAZIs who have been committing war crimes against the Russians in the east. This is common knowledge, except to those who are too stubborn to accept it.They and other extreme right units have been integrated into the legit Ukrainian forces, protected and supported by the Zelensky govt.Anyone who doesn't know this must have been on another planet for a few years
Hopefully, when this steel works is finally overrun or demolished , it will be the end of them. Then they can go on and root out the rest of the NAZI scum within the Ukrainian military,Unfortunately, the Ukrainian ppl with suffer as do most in any major conflict.
NATO, should have kept it's nose out and stop encouraging the arms and personel build up in adjacent countries. Zelensky and co should have rooted out the NAZIS from the military and govt and the EU should have stopped encouraging the Ukraine to join. Maybe this wouldn't have happened then. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 10:43 - May 14 with 492 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 21:28 - May 13 by Lorax |
No, the Ukrainians have been shelling the Russian separatists just as any other government would shell an attempted violent coup.
58% of the people in the Donbas are ethnic Ukrainian.
Of course Russian is spoken very widely, that was decades of Soviet rule for you. Not to forget the forced removal of Tatars from Crimea to be replaced with Russian citizens.
If the language most spoken indicates nationality of a country then we live in England, you are English, see, it doesn't quite work that way.
As to the rest of it, nothing I post will ever be enough for you because you will dismiss it as hearsay even when it is being broadcast across the world. You only want to believe Putin because you are a Russian mouthpiece
PS, you do understand that if the Russians hadn't invaded the Ukrainians wouldn't be doing anything to them. No, not mass graves,
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/credible-evidence-of-sexual-violence-agains
You do know, if it comes from a mass media source, it is not hearsay if it's reported as fact and backed up by evidence?
Oh, hang on, mass graves,
https://nypost.com/2022/04/04/ukrainian-mayor-found-executed-as-images-of-mass-g
One last question, how did 36% of the population manage to outvote 64% of the population? The answer is simple, only Russian passport holders were allowed to vote by the separatists.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-elections-donbas-ukraine-voting/31464658.html |
Regarding your last paragraph - Your selected article on ethnic Russians in the Donbas being able to apply for Russian passports to vote in the Russian elections signifies Putin wanting to bolster his own position with extra votes. It’s called gerrymandering here. The report says that free buses were provided to the Russian border and then more onwards to the polling stations. This seems to be alluding to the Russian election, NOT the elections for autonomy/independence for the Donbas regions.
Those elections (Donbas) have been the subject of much scrutiny with Ukrainian estimated turnouts of only 32% whilst the DPR and LPR stating around 75%. I would imagine the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
As for your mass grave reports can you be 100% certain that what your saying is actually true?
I posted a video yesterday where the satellite shot of an alleged mass grave turned out to be individual graves of Mariupol residents (and some Ukrainian soldiers) .
So, credible allegations of sexual violence against Ukrainian children from the Russian soldiers has now become “credible evidence”. Where? What evidence? This has horrible echoes of how the Jews were portrayed in Germany as child eaters in the ‘30s. Russian men suddenly becoming peadophiles once they go into battle? I ask you as a same and balanced human being - is that REALLY possible??? I mean really??? I don’t believe a word of that evil hate filled nonsense.
As for Bucha - I posted a video from a French aid worker yesterday. Check it out - not hearsay but a credible eyewitness. He did go on to describe the torture of Russian soldiers I believe. There are also widespread allegations that Ukrainian forces set up their positions in schools and hospitals - placing their heavy artillery there so the Russians won’t destroy them. Isn’t that just using civilians (the hospitalised and children) as human shields?
Despicable.
And by the way - the Ukrainians have been shelling Donbas for 8 years - the Russian army wasn’t there - only since February 24th 2022 has the Russian army been on disputed soil. What excuse do you have for the slaughter of thousands of Donbas citizens in the preceding 8 years? | |
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| Russia invade Ukraine on 11:32 - May 14 with 481 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 10:32 - May 14 by controversial_jack |
There's no doubt the AZOV brigade are brutal NAZIs who have been committing war crimes against the Russians in the east. This is common knowledge, except to those who are too stubborn to accept it.They and other extreme right units have been integrated into the legit Ukrainian forces, protected and supported by the Zelensky govt.Anyone who doesn't know this must have been on another planet for a few years
Hopefully, when this steel works is finally overrun or demolished , it will be the end of them. Then they can go on and root out the rest of the NAZI scum within the Ukrainian military,Unfortunately, the Ukrainian ppl with suffer as do most in any major conflict.
NATO, should have kept it's nose out and stop encouraging the arms and personel build up in adjacent countries. Zelensky and co should have rooted out the NAZIS from the military and govt and the EU should have stopped encouraging the Ukraine to join. Maybe this wouldn't have happened then. |
Putin is calling the Finns and Swedes Nazis now. He’s just playing to his audience. Can’t you see this? I know you are his audience but surely there’s a slither of independent thought still in there? | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 13:43 - May 14 with 462 views | controversial_jack |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 11:32 - May 14 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
Putin is calling the Finns and Swedes Nazis now. He’s just playing to his audience. Can’t you see this? I know you are his audience but surely there’s a slither of independent thought still in there? |
If he is and I haven't heard this,then it's polarising both camps, NATO v Russia, cold war2. It still doesn't alter the fact that the AZOV and many others are NAZIs and will be destroyed | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 14:49 - May 14 with 452 views | Scotia |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 13:43 - May 14 by controversial_jack |
If he is and I haven't heard this,then it's polarising both camps, NATO v Russia, cold war2. It still doesn't alter the fact that the AZOV and many others are NAZIs and will be destroyed |
Do you know if he was destroying Nazis and only Nazis, perhaps as part of a one man anti Nazi crusade I don't think anyone would be too bothered.
He isn't though is he. | | | |
| Russia invade Ukraine on 14:58 - May 14 with 450 views | Lorax |
The progression of this thread has been interesting, the twisting and squirming by the Russian apologists has been comedy gold, prove one theory wrong and along they come with an explainer, a fresh new reason, usually a load of nonsense.
Lets start with Neo Nazis. The Azovs were never a threat to Russia, that they were defending themselves against Russian separatists is an ongoing dispute on here.
So lets turn to the other big reason often cited, that NATO is expanding East which goes against an agreement NATO/the USA and Russia had, so lets debunk that.
https://www.heritage.org/europe/report/the-1997-nato-russia-founding-act-does-no
In that link it also shows where Russia has broken the latest documented agreements. Russia is the aggressor, Russia is spreading fake news and lies. Russia is committing war crimes. If the Ukrainians are now also committing war crimes then they should be judged too but never forget why or who started this war. | | | |
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