| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? 15:37 - Mar 6 with 2439 views | STID2017 |
Much debate over the past few months over whether we were heading in the right direction under Martin.
I feel he is starting to make smarter decisions the last couple of games and I am feeling more confident, having seen lots of positive signs.
Hopefully, bar enforced changes, he knows what he believes is his best XI.
Also good to see him not trying to defend the sloppiness yesterday in his interview.
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| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 01:22 - Mar 7 with 851 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 16:23 - Mar 6 by magicdaps10 |
It's a funny old thing this Martin winning and it's due to change of style but lose and its returning to his stubborn insistence to playing his style.
I just think it's the players starting to understanding what Martin wants to play and gplayers starting to gel in the team and others around them. Modern football is structured and shape disciplined that it's not as straight forward as just saying "do this" and "do that".
My view and must stress opinion is that it's just a clear come together of Martin's style, players improving and starting to take on board what is required, saying that, I still expect a few wake up results in the remaining games. |
That’s not the case at all.
We have won with Martin’s style too, it’s just very rare.
Cardiff, Peterborough and Barnsley spring to mind. Not sure if there are any more, there may be one or two littered about the place. I don’t think you will find anyone suggesting otherwise after those games. He stuck with that plan from start to finish in those games, from memory anyway.
There is a very clear difference in tactics and style between the one he wanted to bring here and the one that tends to be getting the bulk of the success that it seems like he reluctantly deploys when we need a result.
This has been explained countless times on here and examples shown of the absolutely stark differences in both styles. This is the one that has been called for since game 1 and what people have been tearing their hair out over.
No more than 5 passes to score any of our 5 goals in the last 2 games. Most are 1, 2 or 3 to get from back to front and the ball in the net.
Under the old system we still wouldn’t be out of our defensive third by then. |  |
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| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 01:34 - Mar 7 with 849 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 17:02 - Mar 6 by vetchonian |
you need to cast your mind back to the opening games of the season we played totally different as we did yesterday or Monday evening.
We are now more direct more purposeful with the ball....less than 60% possession yesterday 3 goals scored and a few other chances created.
There was much less knocking the ball around in our half across the back 3 we were looking to move the ball forward not keep it.
Obafemi first goal came from a long forward pass from the keeper almost Pullisesque...bit well executed..
Martin is learning and adapting this is not the Martknball we saw previously |
Absolutely.
Our last two wins have seen 59% and 54% possession. This is significantly under our seasons average of 64% where we have seen it often well above that.
In the Coventry game at half time, 17.5% of our passes were long. To put that into perspective that’s more than the entire game against Hull at home. And of course was the most amount of direct and long balls we have played all season. It’s a clear change of style.
We are sacrificing pass count and possession which is generally slowing things down, for a direct approach which is (again) getting us the results we said it would at the start.
With the likes of Obafemi up front, the last thing you want to do is have hundreds of passes in and around your own box just to keep possession as the defence can get back into position to mark the danger space in front of him.
You want to be getting that ball as quickly to him as possible when the defence has shifted, if that means a 50 yard pass from the keeper or a defender then that’s what it means.
I’m sure we will see the false notion that nothing has changed, I’m sure he will say it himself (of course he would) but anyone with eyes or even a single analytical bone in their body can see that is most certainly has, not subtly either.
17% long passes in the first half is a complete ‘about turn’ whether people like it or not. Personally I love that style of passing, it’s a healthy mix that can be extremely dangerous as it negates the effectiveness of the press.
If a team knows you won’t go long then can commit to the press and not worry about the gaps they are leaving because even if the press line is broken, they will get time to get back into position as all passing is short and slow.
If a team knows you will smash a 50 yard pass into the space the press has left, then they are less likely to do it so aggressively.
It’s chalk and cheese and these are the changes and the reasons for them that were explained very early on. [Post edited 7 Mar 2022 1:48]
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| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 05:20 - Mar 7 with 789 views | Dr_Parnassus |
That got me thinking.
We have won 12 times this season.
Cardiff, Barnsley and Boro are the 3 games in which we won due to Martinball version 1. Everyone accepts that and I don't believe anyone stated otherwise after the game. From start to finish was pass, pass, pass and complete ball retention.
I would bet my life on it that if we take the other 9 wins which many noted were due to a change in style (they are from two main spells, the recent one and the one before Xmas)... those 9 wins would have less passing, less possession and more long balls than the rest of the season.
I have done absolutely no data research on it and it will take me a while to compile but I can almost guarantee that this will be the case. I will post the data even if I am wrong, but I bet you I won't be, it should be a clear drop in all of them.
I say this because Martinball version 1 which focusses on pass number, possession number and short passing IS NOT successful. Our success has come when that nonsense is done away with and we sacrifice them for direct passing moves - something called for very early on, that will without question show in the data.
Anyway, I'm off to work it out... | |
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| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 06:09 - Mar 7 with 780 views | Dr_Parnassus |
FYI, I also removed games with red cards for longer than a 30 min period for obvious reasons with their effects on both teams possession stats whether it be for or against us.
Martinball Version 2 win data.
Possession average: 59.1%
Pass number average: 539
Long ball %: 11.8%
This is an absolute nightmare to work out 
But as you can see, our wins this season, the majority of which have come from a switch to direct football is stark to what we see in the other system.
70%+ possession
700+ passes
6% long
It was stated very early that in order to become more successful and effective we would need to sacrifice possession, pass numbers and the obsession with going short.
This is all that was called for. The penny, let's hope, appears to have now dropped. | |
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| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 08:27 - Mar 7 with 751 views | vetchonian |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 17:30 - Mar 6 by krunchykarrot |
Because he has different players and Grimes looks better because he has options, in fact yesterday Obafemi was on fire and looked up for it. No manager will ditch possesion football ever, in fact they spend as much time working out how to get it back than on keeping and attacking. |
Apart from Christie and Fisher the players who started Saturday were here at the start of the season.
Russ tried different combinations and formations but stuck with the possession and sideways passing had he adopted the approach from the last two games then we may have had better results.
Many have said this squad could be doing better don’t you think that Obafemi,Piroe,Natchm,Paterson and Downes have added more quality to what we had last season |  |
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| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 08:38 - Mar 7 with 742 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 08:27 - Mar 7 by vetchonian |
Apart from Christie and Fisher the players who started Saturday were here at the start of the season.
Russ tried different combinations and formations but stuck with the possession and sideways passing had he adopted the approach from the last two games then we may have had better results.
Many have said this squad could be doing better don’t you think that Obafemi,Piroe,Natchm,Paterson and Downes have added more quality to what we had last season |
This team belongs in the play-offs.
I certainly wouldn't swap this seasons team for last seasons.
Piroe and Obafemi is the best set of strikers have have had in the football league. These would easily grace the Premier League.
But he fell out with both of them at various points. The old way of playing is horrendous for strikers, with the ball knocked about at the back for the majority of the game they end up feeding off scraps.
I can imagine they were among the first to voice their concerns with it. | |
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| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 11:05 - Mar 7 with 711 views | GixerJack |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 06:09 - Mar 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
FYI, I also removed games with red cards for longer than a 30 min period for obvious reasons with their effects on both teams possession stats whether it be for or against us.
Martinball Version 2 win data.
Possession average: 59.1%
Pass number average: 539
Long ball %: 11.8%
This is an absolute nightmare to work out
But as you can see, our wins this season, the majority of which have come from a switch to direct football is stark to what we see in the other system.
70%+ possession
700+ passes
6% long
It was stated very early that in order to become more successful and effective we would need to sacrifice possession, pass numbers and the obsession with going short.
This is all that was called for. The penny, let's hope, appears to have now dropped. |
Define long balls.
Is a long ball the same as a long pass? How far does the ball have to travel before it’s classed as a long ball/pass?
The possession stats were down on Saturday because more long balls/passes were played which resulted in Coventry winning the ball and retaining it and subsequently going on the attack themselves.
It wasn’t our use of longer balls but quicker balls forward that made the difference |  | | |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 11:19 - Mar 7 with 702 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 11:05 - Mar 7 by GixerJack |
Define long balls.
Is a long ball the same as a long pass? How far does the ball have to travel before it’s classed as a long ball/pass?
The possession stats were down on Saturday because more long balls/passes were played which resulted in Coventry winning the ball and retaining it and subsequently going on the attack themselves.
It wasn’t our use of longer balls but quicker balls forward that made the difference |
Of course. Anything over 25 yards I think its defined as.
Absolutely, that is exactly why possession was down, we were more direct. Took more attacking risks and less defensive risks. That is the whole point of direct football over possession retention at all costs.
The difference was our use of long balls stopping them committing to the press, giving us chances to catch them on the break and not give up possession in our own third constantly.
When we were 3-0 up we did revert to that and they dominated us like all the other games we try the short tippy tappy stuff. Thankfully we were 3-0 up and it didn't matter.
The difference in the approach and style is wildly different, and so are the results we get from each. | |
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| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 12:35 - Mar 7 with 675 views | krunchykarrot |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 08:27 - Mar 7 by vetchonian |
Apart from Christie and Fisher the players who started Saturday were here at the start of the season.
Russ tried different combinations and formations but stuck with the possession and sideways passing had he adopted the approach from the last two games then we may have had better results.
Many have said this squad could be doing better don’t you think that Obafemi,Piroe,Natchm,Paterson and Downes have added more quality to what we had last season |
I know where you are coming from, Obafemi on Saturday is not the same player starting the season. I actually luaghed out loud on Sat after Grimes turned sweetly and had Christy Piroe and Obafemi making forward runs and he was slow in choosing and played safe. Justyfying some of the twaddle on here.
The thing is we are all fans and some have played or coached over the years but there is one thing we can all agree on is pace cannot be defended. I still think if we play this way we will have to replace recruit footballing defenders with pace? Burns we have him for the rest of and next season so play him along with Rushsha etc. |  | | |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 12:43 - Mar 7 with 668 views | krunchykarrot |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 08:38 - Mar 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
This team belongs in the play-offs.
I certainly wouldn't swap this seasons team for last seasons.
Piroe and Obafemi is the best set of strikers have have had in the football league. These would easily grace the Premier League.
But he fell out with both of them at various points. The old way of playing is horrendous for strikers, with the ball knocked about at the back for the majority of the game they end up feeding off scraps.
I can imagine they were among the first to voice their concerns with it. |
Piroe and Obafemi are good Championship strikers whose consistency needs to be maintained. Look at Mitrovic when he stepped up where everything is done much quicker, as for falling out the attitude of players is key to a good squad and should never start if they are disruptive. Posters on here thought Ayew was being linked with top sides which made me laugh, only his footballing nouse had him in the team as his pace had gone. | | | |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 14:17 - Mar 7 with 632 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 12:43 - Mar 7 by krunchykarrot |
Piroe and Obafemi are good Championship strikers whose consistency needs to be maintained. Look at Mitrovic when he stepped up where everything is done much quicker, as for falling out the attitude of players is key to a good squad and should never start if they are disruptive. Posters on here thought Ayew was being linked with top sides which made me laugh, only his footballing nouse had him in the team as his pace had gone. |
It’s not the same thing but quicker though is it. That’s just not true.
We aren’t burning through 30 passes at the speed of light.
It’s quicker because the passing is longer and more direct. 2 passes to get from defence to attack and not 20. That’s what makes it slow.
Mitrovic is another level altogether. | |
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| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 14:21 - Mar 7 with 631 views | Whiterockin |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 14:17 - Mar 7 by Dr_Parnassus |
It’s not the same thing but quicker though is it. That’s just not true.
We aren’t burning through 30 passes at the speed of light.
It’s quicker because the passing is longer and more direct. 2 passes to get from defence to attack and not 20. That’s what makes it slow.
Mitrovic is another level altogether. |
It could be quicker with through balls because we actually have a player with pace making the runs. |  | | |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 14:25 - Mar 7 with 620 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 14:21 - Mar 7 by Whiterockin |
It could be quicker with through balls because we actually have a player with pace making the runs. |
The space has always been there, Obafemi has always been available. He’s been here since August, it’s no surprise he’s quick.
We have been saying this for months on end.
But this isn’t just through balls. We are getting the balls in dangerous areas in a more direct manner. Both our goals in the WBA game came from balls out wide and then direct cross into the box. That space was there from minute 1, but want taken advantage of until we went direct with 15 mins left to go.
Against Coventry we were direct from the off. | |
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| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 15:37 - Mar 7 with 591 views | krunchykarrot |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 14:21 - Mar 7 by Whiterockin |
It could be quicker with through balls because we actually have a player with pace making the runs. |
Exactly, we have pace and runners = options.
Ill say it again we need to sort out our back line with pacy footballing CH so play Ben or Burns there to see if they can step in as KN wont be able to rely on his nous forever. | | | |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 15:43 - Mar 7 with 586 views | Whiterockin |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 15:37 - Mar 7 by krunchykarrot |
Exactly, we have pace and runners = options.
Ill say it again we need to sort out our back line with pacy footballing CH so play Ben or Burns there to see if they can step in as KN wont be able to rely on his nous forever. |
Naughton is an excellent athlete and looks after himself as a great pro. Hopefully we can get one more season but age catches up. | | | |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 20:04 - Mar 7 with 548 views | krunchykarrot |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 15:43 - Mar 7 by Whiterockin |
Naughton is an excellent athlete and looks after himself as a great pro. Hopefully we can get one more season but age catches up. |
My issue with this is that playing KN in CH position exposes Ben or our big CH to the cross ball in behind. If we swap them around as i suggested we will find out if they are good enough. | | | |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 22:21 - Mar 7 with 526 views | AndyCole |
Pity. The more apt OP shoulda been:
- Has the penny finally dropped for RM, due to :
a) bowing to player pressure to play proper winning football
b) his bosses telling him to change it, or he's out
c) a + b
RM is stubborn, unduly arrogant and a slow learner. We are massively underperforming under his stewardship. It's humiliating at times.
The big question is will he continue to do c) above, and we continue to win with our effective winning brand, or will he bow to his over inflated ego and revert to type ? | |
| Pro free speech and alternative opinions -
Anti gang-bullying and poor modding thereof -
Will always make a stand against those who consistently choose to turn a blind eye |
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| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 23:14 - Mar 7 with 505 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 15:37 - Mar 7 by krunchykarrot |
Exactly, we have pace and runners = options.
Ill say it again we need to sort out our back line with pacy footballing CH so play Ben or Burns there to see if they can step in as KN wont be able to rely on his nous forever. |
We haven’t recently discovered Obafemi was fast.
The way people are talking, it’s as if he’s just been handed a speed super power in the mail this week.
We have had him since August. But that’s not the reason we are going direct as they aren’t all through balls.
We are going direct because it’s better than not doing so, as our other results will tell you. [Post edited 7 Mar 2022 23:16]
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| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 23:51 - Mar 7 with 496 views | STID2017 |
| Is Russell Martin Getting It Right At Last ? on 22:21 - Mar 7 by AndyCole |
Pity. The more apt OP shoulda been:
- Has the penny finally dropped for RM, due to :
a) bowing to player pressure to play proper winning football
b) his bosses telling him to change it, or he's out
c) a + b
RM is stubborn, unduly arrogant and a slow learner. We are massively underperforming under his stewardship. It's humiliating at times.
The big question is will he continue to do c) above, and we continue to win with our effective winning brand, or will he bow to his over inflated ego and revert to type ? |
You just want to knock Martin.
When he was struggling he was giving you the ammunition.
Now he seems to be getting it right you are still knocking him ?
Think you should start getting behind the team and manager instead of constantly criticising him and by virtue of that the team | |
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