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The round heads are back vying for the hearts are souls of the cavalier purist Swansea faithful. Under the guise of science and statistics they seek to get Swansea to play a statistically based form of Cooperball. This is a re run of the Monk revolution circa 2015.
Swansea are now on the cusp of a new era of progressive based possession dominating football introduced by Martinez. Had Swansea had someone better than Cullen v Derby it was 1-0 3 points and 70% possession. Happy days. Cooper lost to Derby last season.
Martin has acknowledged that the club need help up top in January to turn these 0-0s into wins. Cullen and Whittaker have come up short.
Wise sage since Toshack era
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The Monkists are back. on 16:01 - Oct 7 with 1011 views
More myth ...Martinezs football was never about possesion it was playing out from the back not having centre halves hoof it up field.
Martinez got us to play it out from the back using Leon as an outlet for the Centrebacks to short pass too then Leon would distribute the ball forwards as wuickly as possible.....MArtinezs sides did not spend time passing sideways and back
You now are spouting this nonsense....science and statistics are part of the modern game...What good is 70% possesion without any result.
Cullen certainly has come up short but how can you say WHittaker has? What opportunit y has he had in league games.....depite scorng a hat trick in a cup outing....Why did the club sell last season "top" scorer from open play?
People only see what they want to see and start rewriting the past to suit thier current narrative...Martinezs approach was about winning games by scoring goals....you score one Ill score two ...he made sure the ball got forwards into the danger zone but by being t a players feet not hoofed over the midfield...thats why his football was exciting not because he encouraged long spelss of possession....look at the current league table and compare ot with the possesion stats table...the top 6 league clubs are not in the top 2 spots for possesion and they all have less than 60% average ....so possesion is not the answer.
Where was Piroe at Derby? Why didnt Whittaker come on before Cullen? Wh is Kory Smith getting picked? Why does MArtin persist in playing pplayers out odf position or in the wrong roles? You confuse people questioning with those wanting to play boring football.
Stats are now part of the game ...the aim of the game is to win you win by scoring goals not by how much possession you have....all sport is about points you have to score to score goals you need to create cahnces leading to shots on goal these are measured modern day managers will take these stats along with the video analyisi and work out how they improve....What some poster here have done is use stats to show that maybe in fact the football hasnt actually improved form an effieicnt attacking perspective under MArtin....speaking with data rahter thn a happy clappy fel good beacuse we have more of the ball
Martinez wasn't about keeping possession mun. He was about attacking. We were good to watch but often not great in defence, we were definitely about 'Vindaloo' back then, we're gonna score more than you! We can hardly say that defence were fantastic footballers, good, solid players, reliable, yes.
The Monkists are back. on 17:46 - Oct 7 by Catullus
Martinez wasn't about keeping possession mun. He was about attacking. We were good to watch but often not great in defence, we were definitely about 'Vindaloo' back then, we're gonna score more than you! We can hardly say that defence were fantastic footballers, good, solid players, reliable, yes.
This.
The possession obsession started and pretty much ended with Rodgers. Otherwise we just tried to play attractive passing football. Then Monk arrived and it started to be all about shape, the same tedious nonsense that we also had under Clement and Cooper.
Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back.
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The Monkists are back. on 18:19 - Oct 7 with 922 views
The Monkists are back. on 17:53 - Oct 7 by Dr_Winston
This.
The possession obsession started and pretty much ended with Rodgers. Otherwise we just tried to play attractive passing football. Then Monk arrived and it started to be all about shape, the same tedious nonsense that we also had under Clement and Cooper.
I do not believe it is fair to label our football under Rodgers as obsessed with possession.
This goal perfectly sums up how we played under Rodgers. Look at how hard people worked off the ball to make space to enable a forward pass. Look how desperately Neil Taylor tried to find a forward pass before turning back after what felt like an age of looking forward.
We tried to drag players out of position by moving the ball quickly into forward areas, and once it was there, players were allowed to attempt high risk passes to create a goal scoring chance. That is why Mark Gower had such a high chance creation score during those times. He was the player lucky enough to be tasked with playing those high risk passes to the forwards who were in acres of space as a result of opposition defenders being dragged out of position.
Our style of play peaked under Rodgers. It was purposeful and truly wonderful to watch. Look at some of those players he was achieving this with... Jazz Richards, Leroy Lita, Mark Gower etc. Unbelievable.
Indeed the OP’s knowledge of football is about as limited as his knowledge of most other things.
This is nothing like the beautiful football of days gone by. It has nothing to do with Monk. Why he is being brought up is bizarre, we weren’t effective under Monk - hence why he was sacked as we couldn’t get results. Similarly ineffective to Russell in fact.
Surely if anyone are the “Monkists”, it’s the ones saying that results doesn’t matter, attacking intent doesn’t matter, winning games doesn’t matter. That would align closer with the Monk reign in his fateful second season.
Anyone comparing this football to Martinez or Rodgers era is either suffering from sever amnesia or simply doesn’t understand the game.
The OP is upset because he asked for stats thinking they would back his nonsense, it then turned out they didn’t so I expect a full on war on stats from him over the next few weeks until it’s out of his system.
A bit like when he claimed the odds showed we were favourites for relegation every PL season, until I showed him otherwise. Then it was all out war on odds and gambling speak on the forum for a while.
Quiz question for you Resolven. Please don’t ignore it.
Can you name another season where we have had less attacking intent than this one. Attempts on goal, go for it…. Ask for help if you need it.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
I do not believe it is fair to label our football under Rodgers as obsessed with possession.
This goal perfectly sums up how we played under Rodgers. Look at how hard people worked off the ball to make space to enable a forward pass. Look how desperately Neil Taylor tried to find a forward pass before turning back after what felt like an age of looking forward.
We tried to drag players out of position by moving the ball quickly into forward areas, and once it was there, players were allowed to attempt high risk passes to create a goal scoring chance. That is why Mark Gower had such a high chance creation score during those times. He was the player lucky enough to be tasked with playing those high risk passes to the forwards who were in acres of space as a result of opposition defenders being dragged out of position.
Our style of play peaked under Rodgers. It was purposeful and truly wonderful to watch. Look at some of those players he was achieving this with... Jazz Richards, Leroy Lita, Mark Gower etc. Unbelievable.
Spot on.
“Purpose” is the operative word. Intent is another.
Having possession in safe areas of the field to stop your opponents having it, and as a result sacrificing a huge chunk of attacking play that you had the year before - is extremely negative.
People are getting hoodwinked by possession. The OP said “Martin has somehow turned this team into a 70% team from a 48% possession team in 11 games”… neither statistic correct of course, but we will skirt over that.
It’s extremely easy to do that, we could have been an 80% possession team under Cooper if we wanted. Thankfully he didn’t as he knows that if that is the case then we would probably have to sacrifice our attacking intent, and as a result we finished 4th.
Under both Martinez and Rodgers we had a clear intent to attack, keeping the ball was a means to do that and probe a way forward. There is a huge difference between that and keeping the ball simply to keep it away from the opposition, one is creative the other is destructive, it’s a form of defence not attack.
Hence you are seeing that in our complete lack of attacking output. 9 goals in 11 games. It’s not an anomaly, we must have among the lowest attempts in the league, yet the highest possession.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
The Monkists are back. on 00:25 - Oct 8 by Dr_Parnassus
Indeed the OP’s knowledge of football is about as limited as his knowledge of most other things.
This is nothing like the beautiful football of days gone by. It has nothing to do with Monk. Why he is being brought up is bizarre, we weren’t effective under Monk - hence why he was sacked as we couldn’t get results. Similarly ineffective to Russell in fact.
Surely if anyone are the “Monkists”, it’s the ones saying that results doesn’t matter, attacking intent doesn’t matter, winning games doesn’t matter. That would align closer with the Monk reign in his fateful second season.
Anyone comparing this football to Martinez or Rodgers era is either suffering from sever amnesia or simply doesn’t understand the game.
The OP is upset because he asked for stats thinking they would back his nonsense, it then turned out they didn’t so I expect a full on war on stats from him over the next few weeks until it’s out of his system.
A bit like when he claimed the odds showed we were favourites for relegation every PL season, until I showed him otherwise. Then it was all out war on odds and gambling speak on the forum for a while.
Quiz question for you Resolven. Please don’t ignore it.
Can you name another season where we have had less attacking intent than this one. Attempts on goal, go for it…. Ask for help if you need it.
Waste of time Doc, it seems this guru from the Neath Valley is incapable of answering any question put to him ..but will attempt to divert to A N other topic....
I am still waiting for the answers to several questions I have posed him, mostly in repsonse to his inital postings
Not sure how Monk could be regarded as a failure he took us to our highest ever position in the Premier league 8th in 2014/15 higher than Rodgers 11th and Laudrup 9th.
Not sure how Monk could be regarded as a failure he took us to our highest ever position in the Premier league 8th in 2014/15 higher than Rodgers 11th and Laudrup 9th.
But then according to many it is not all about being a atble watcher ...its more to do with what we see on thepitch.
Monk wanst a "failure" from a results perspective in his first season though he did dismantle the footballing philosphy we had had prior to his full time appointment...and in his second season he couldnt repeat his success of the season before so he was seen to be failing.
Cooper took us to our highest level of Championship points but was deemed to be a failure!!
The Monkists are back. on 12:58 - Oct 8 by vetchonian
Waste of time Doc, it seems this guru from the Neath Valley is incapable of answering any question put to him ..but will attempt to divert to A N other topic....
I am still waiting for the answers to several questions I have posed him, mostly in repsonse to his inital postings
I'm in the same boat pal.
I'm still waiting for that poster to justify claims they've made about me too.
I'm still waiting for that poster to justify claims they've made about me too.
I answered all your questions and gave clarifications religiously and we had quite a good debating period. Sadly you started making personal slurs and suggested falsely i had a vested interest. So I stopped. If you improve your manners we might again be able to have a polite debate. Dr P sadly seems to be going down the abuse route as well.
I challenge narratives. I see parallel between DR P and the Vetchonian theory with the Monk debate in 2015. Monk has in my opinion been harshly treated, His declining fortunes coincided with the replacement of red hot Bony by a tepid Eder and out of shape Tabanou who like Narsingh was not made of the right stuff. Losing Bony was worse than if Cooper lost Ayew.
[Post edited 8 Oct 2021 17:00]
Wise sage since Toshack era
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The Monkists are back. on 17:36 - Oct 8 with 638 views
The Monkists are back. on 16:25 - Oct 8 by ReslovenSwan1
I answered all your questions and gave clarifications religiously and we had quite a good debating period. Sadly you started making personal slurs and suggested falsely i had a vested interest. So I stopped. If you improve your manners we might again be able to have a polite debate. Dr P sadly seems to be going down the abuse route as well.
I challenge narratives. I see parallel between DR P and the Vetchonian theory with the Monk debate in 2015. Monk has in my opinion been harshly treated, His declining fortunes coincided with the replacement of red hot Bony by a tepid Eder and out of shape Tabanou who like Narsingh was not made of the right stuff. Losing Bony was worse than if Cooper lost Ayew.
[Post edited 8 Oct 2021 17:00]
You clearly stated on two occasions over the last few days that I misquoted someone.
You for some perverse reason have thus far declined to back up those claims.
Your post as per usual is talking about things other than the thread of conversation.
You clearly stated on two occasions over the last few days that I misquoted someone.
You for some perverse reason have thus far declined to back up those claims.
Your post as per usual is talking about things other than the thread of conversation.
You will just have to live with the frustration of me not pointing out the bleeding obvious to you. I feel you pain. I did that before and it was an unrewarding experience ending with you calling me something abusive.
Wise sage since Toshack era
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The Monkists are back. on 20:31 - Oct 8 with 606 views
The Monkists are back. on 17:57 - Oct 8 by ReslovenSwan1
You will just have to live with the frustration of me not pointing out the bleeding obvious to you. I feel you pain. I did that before and it was an unrewarding experience ending with you calling me something abusive.
If it's that obvious just point it out.
And I'm far from in pain, I find it rather amusing making you look silly (in fairness you've done it to yourself this time).
The Monkists are back. on 13:39 - Oct 8 by vetchonian
But then according to many it is not all about being a atble watcher ...its more to do with what we see on thepitch.
Monk wanst a "failure" from a results perspective in his first season though he did dismantle the footballing philosphy we had had prior to his full time appointment...and in his second season he couldnt repeat his success of the season before so he was seen to be failing.
Cooper took us to our highest level of Championship points but was deemed to be a failure!!
“ Cooper took us to our highest level of Championship points but was deemed to be a failure!!”
Only by a select few idiots that don’t know football from a banjo, to be fair.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
And I'm far from in pain, I find it rather amusing making you look silly (in fairness you've done it to yourself this time).
He never does back anything up.
I was on the fence whether he was a tad strange or a massive troll up until now. This bizarre week of posting from him suggests it is indeed the latter.
He’s clearly bored and looking for his online kicks.
[Post edited 8 Oct 2021 21:52]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Not sure how Monk could be regarded as a failure he took us to our highest ever position in the Premier league 8th in 2014/15 higher than Rodgers 11th and Laudrup 9th.
Monk was terrible.
Ruined the Swans, the start of our decline.
Beware of the Risen People
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The Monkists are back. on 23:08 - Oct 8 with 547 views
The Monkists are back. on 21:14 - Oct 8 by Dr_Parnassus
He never does back anything up.
I was on the fence whether he was a tad strange or a massive troll up until now. This bizarre week of posting from him suggests it is indeed the latter.
He’s clearly bored and looking for his online kicks.
[Post edited 8 Oct 2021 21:52]
I do not understand why you are targeting me personally. Am I not allowed to question your arguments conclusions and statistical machinations?.
It commonly known you can spin anything with statistics. Its good you have some software to play with which the rest of us do not have but I am not convinced of your conclusions. You have the data but can you interpret it properly? No one questions your data just your conclusions. I remember the days of Charles Hughes in the bad old days of English football. Ring any bells.?
I never target posters. I wonder how bored you must be to regurgitate statistical data week after week.
Wise sage since Toshack era
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The Monkists are back. on 23:14 - Oct 8 with 546 views
The Monkists are back. on 23:08 - Oct 8 by ReslovenSwan1
I do not understand why you are targeting me personally. Am I not allowed to question your arguments conclusions and statistical machinations?.
It commonly known you can spin anything with statistics. Its good you have some software to play with which the rest of us do not have but I am not convinced of your conclusions. You have the data but can you interpret it properly? No one questions your data just your conclusions. I remember the days of Charles Hughes in the bad old days of English football. Ring any bells.?
I never target posters. I wonder how bored you must be to regurgitate statistical data week after week.
You certainly targeted me this week when you made unsubstantiated claims against me.
The Monkists are back. on 23:08 - Oct 8 by ReslovenSwan1
I do not understand why you are targeting me personally. Am I not allowed to question your arguments conclusions and statistical machinations?.
It commonly known you can spin anything with statistics. Its good you have some software to play with which the rest of us do not have but I am not convinced of your conclusions. You have the data but can you interpret it properly? No one questions your data just your conclusions. I remember the days of Charles Hughes in the bad old days of English football. Ring any bells.?
I never target posters. I wonder how bored you must be to regurgitate statistical data week after week.
Because you targeted me, again.
You keep bringing me into your arguments that make no sense and then dropping them as soon as I reply showing you why you are talking nonsense.
You asked me for some certain stats yesterday, that you felt would back up your claims. Turns out they didn’t so you declared war on stats.
In fact before that you claimed they were all from the Cup games so we can’t count them, even though zero were…. Then you declared war on stats, or facts as I prefer to see them as.
Yes my profession is interpreting sporting statistics, I think I have a pretty good idea how. I understand you are struggling on here recently but you are at the bottom of the barrel now.
Absolutely nothing boring about showing someone that they are spouting rubbish week after week with hard facts.
What software do I have to play with? Which specific parts of the data I have shown do you think doesn’t marry with the conclusions made then?
Take your time with that one, the wrong answer there and the whole house of cards collapses on you…. Good luck.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
You certainly targeted me this week when you made unsubstantiated claims against me.
Yep same. He has been accused of this before with other posters.
I also caught him doing it to a stranger he labelled a fascist too, he now adds a caveat to that story that it is a guess.
You have to keep examining his words and challenging them because every other sentence is just pure rubbish, conjecture, accusation or assumption. There are very few threads of truth in his posts and where they are present they are hidden under a maze of misdirection.
He won’t get anywhere with me that’s for sure.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
The Monkists are back. on 01:10 - Oct 9 by Dr_Parnassus
Yep same. He has been accused of this before with other posters.
I also caught him doing it to a stranger he labelled a fascist too, he now adds a caveat to that story that it is a guess.
You have to keep examining his words and challenging them because every other sentence is just pure rubbish, conjecture, accusation or assumption. There are very few threads of truth in his posts and where they are present they are hidden under a maze of misdirection.
He won’t get anywhere with me that’s for sure.
You were unhappy at my use of the word 'fascist'. Out of respect for your opinions on the meaning of this word and its subtleties I have not used it again. I am reminded of the Italian West Ham footballer who declared "I am a fascist not a racist". This is lost on most of this forum's readership. You clearly feel I should not discredit 'fascists' unnecessarily or unfairly.
I fully understand with all the software you have at your disposal you do not like to have you opinions contested or compared to previous periods in Swansea's footballing development such as the Monk era where going more direct was clearly the plan. This appears to talley with your conclusions.
My principles and logic have been laid out clearly on this forum. I want a successful family friendly club playing entertaining and attacking football. I support the American ownership who are prepared to put their money into the club sending the fans ownership group heading for the exit door to avoid dilution after years of failing to diversify their holding in a notoriously super high risk sector.
Wise sage since Toshack era
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The Monkists are back. on 02:03 - Oct 9 with 505 views
The Monkists are back. on 01:29 - Oct 9 by ReslovenSwan1
You were unhappy at my use of the word 'fascist'. Out of respect for your opinions on the meaning of this word and its subtleties I have not used it again. I am reminded of the Italian West Ham footballer who declared "I am a fascist not a racist". This is lost on most of this forum's readership. You clearly feel I should not discredit 'fascists' unnecessarily or unfairly.
I fully understand with all the software you have at your disposal you do not like to have you opinions contested or compared to previous periods in Swansea's footballing development such as the Monk era where going more direct was clearly the plan. This appears to talley with your conclusions.
My principles and logic have been laid out clearly on this forum. I want a successful family friendly club playing entertaining and attacking football. I support the American ownership who are prepared to put their money into the club sending the fans ownership group heading for the exit door to avoid dilution after years of failing to diversify their holding in a notoriously super high risk sector.
I wasn't unhappy about it, it didn't affect my mood in the slightest. I was pointing out that you can't describe someone as a political tyrant because he shouted at you at a football match. I was pointing out it's inaccuracy not my feelings towards it.
Again, what software do I use for my views on here? I have never once used any, which stats do you think need to be generated from software exactly?
My views have nothing to do with directness, they have to do with effectiveness. If we are more effective doing this 75% possession game then great, lets do that. Monk's style was not effective, hence why he got sacked. So not sure what the comparison is there.
If you want the club to play entertaining and attacking football, then how are you happy playing some of the more non entertaining and non attacking football in our recent history?
We have had 26% less goal attempts than last season. A period you claimed to not enjoy presumably for the lack of focus on attack.
Your principles may well be clear, but they don't correlate to reality and real time events.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
The Monkists are back. on 01:29 - Oct 9 by ReslovenSwan1
You were unhappy at my use of the word 'fascist'. Out of respect for your opinions on the meaning of this word and its subtleties I have not used it again. I am reminded of the Italian West Ham footballer who declared "I am a fascist not a racist". This is lost on most of this forum's readership. You clearly feel I should not discredit 'fascists' unnecessarily or unfairly.
I fully understand with all the software you have at your disposal you do not like to have you opinions contested or compared to previous periods in Swansea's footballing development such as the Monk era where going more direct was clearly the plan. This appears to talley with your conclusions.
My principles and logic have been laid out clearly on this forum. I want a successful family friendly club playing entertaining and attacking football. I support the American ownership who are prepared to put their money into the club sending the fans ownership group heading for the exit door to avoid dilution after years of failing to diversify their holding in a notoriously super high risk sector.
"who are prepared to put their money into the club sending the fans ownership group heading for the exit door to avoid dilution after years of failing to diversify their holding in a notoriously super high risk sector".
They don't seem to be in much of a rush to do this to me? Surely it doesn't take that long to convert a loan into equity? Maybe they are happy with their zero risk 5% earner? What's the chances that it would have already been converted by now had we won the play off final though????
Diversify how? We've already been through these options and nauseum&it's been determined that none were really feasible and worthwhile. And frankly it's looking likely it wasn't required anyway. Soon the trust will be going to court (on the back of a QC recommendation that they have a strong case) which could result in them selling their shares at their very peak tip top price. So if anything, the trust were spot on not investing in anything else. They've played a blinder.
Not sure how Monk could be regarded as a failure he took us to our highest ever position in the Premier league 8th in 2014/15 higher than Rodgers 11th and Laudrup 9th.
As I’ve said to Arthur Dullard on many occasions- finishing 8th May get you a little more prize money at the end of the season than finishing 11th but it wins you nothing - even worse than being a losing play off finalist. No prizes , nothing.
Each time I go to Bedd - au........................
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