| Ashes Thread 19:48 - Nov 15 with 44814 views | BlackCrowe |
If we survive the 1st test, i think we might just sneak it. If we lose it, it'll probably be carnage.
Going to days 1-3 of Sydney. Anyone else there? |  |
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| Ashes Thread on 09:22 - Dec 18 with 2762 views | robith |
| Ashes Thread on 09:03 - Dec 18 by CiderwithRsie |
Not just Australia, it is notoriously hard to win in India, Pakistan are formidable at "home" and England don't lose home series much either (since Duncan Fletcher anyway.) Bit of an issue for Test cricket IMO.
But whitewashes aren't usual and contrary to what I said originally this looks nailed on for one. (The flaw in my thinking was that I thought we were only down one player in Stokes, I didn't foresee that 3 of our top 4 batsmen - Cook, Root and Ali - would have improved the team if they'd all been arrested in Bristol too.)
Aus in England at least compete and since I agree about the quality of current Aus it's not good enough that we don't. The players are good enough IMO to at least do that but are underperforming - I think Cook can still do it if motivated but I don't think the leadership (captain, coach, senior players) have the appetite for winning that Aus always have and which might get Cook up for the fight; or which might have sustained Root's confidence which looks temporarily shot.
I'd restrict Bayliss to ODI/T20 coach and beg Alec Stewart to take the test job. Can't do much about the captaincy now but Broad might have been a better shout. If someone could push Ramprakash out of the plane on the way home that'd help. |
Pray tell, what exactly has Broad done in this series to suggest he'd be good captain material? He's been annoymous |  | | |
| Ashes Thread on 10:08 - Dec 18 with 2720 views | derbyhoop |
Before the series started I thought we were underestimating the Australian bowlers, so I'm not surprised to see us losing. I didn't expect it to be on this scale though. The 2 senior batsmen, Cook and Root have had poor series, whereas the small rays of hope have come from the 3 we wouldn't have expected - Stoneman, Vince and Malan. On top of that, we haven't looked like taking 20 wickets with both Broad and Ali being very poor.
I still don't understand how Smith gets so many runs for them. His technique is highly questionable. He must have outstanding eye hand co-ordination. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| Ashes Thread on 12:02 - Dec 18 with 2669 views | ElHoop |
| Ashes Thread on 10:08 - Dec 18 by derbyhoop |
Before the series started I thought we were underestimating the Australian bowlers, so I'm not surprised to see us losing. I didn't expect it to be on this scale though. The 2 senior batsmen, Cook and Root have had poor series, whereas the small rays of hope have come from the 3 we wouldn't have expected - Stoneman, Vince and Malan. On top of that, we haven't looked like taking 20 wickets with both Broad and Ali being very poor.
I still don't understand how Smith gets so many runs for them. His technique is highly questionable. He must have outstanding eye hand co-ordination. |
I've heard them talking about Smith's technique a lot on radio and TV. Whilst I don't really understand this stuff, it seems as if his initial movement is less about being part of his batting action and more about getting him into a position where he can then move wherever he wants when he gets lined up to play a shot. So it's like a way of getting moving before he actually has to fully commit himself. Maybe that gives him a little bit more time to play the shot.
Seemingly he made this change during or after a series against England and since then his average has become almost Bradmanesque. He's officially rated as the world number 1 batsman anyway so he's doing something right. Kohli is rated 2 and Root 3. |  | | |
| Ashes Thread on 12:30 - Dec 18 with 2644 views | Nov77 |
| Ashes Thread on 09:03 - Dec 18 by CiderwithRsie |
Not just Australia, it is notoriously hard to win in India, Pakistan are formidable at "home" and England don't lose home series much either (since Duncan Fletcher anyway.) Bit of an issue for Test cricket IMO.
But whitewashes aren't usual and contrary to what I said originally this looks nailed on for one. (The flaw in my thinking was that I thought we were only down one player in Stokes, I didn't foresee that 3 of our top 4 batsmen - Cook, Root and Ali - would have improved the team if they'd all been arrested in Bristol too.)
Aus in England at least compete and since I agree about the quality of current Aus it's not good enough that we don't. The players are good enough IMO to at least do that but are underperforming - I think Cook can still do it if motivated but I don't think the leadership (captain, coach, senior players) have the appetite for winning that Aus always have and which might get Cook up for the fight; or which might have sustained Root's confidence which looks temporarily shot.
I'd restrict Bayliss to ODI/T20 coach and beg Alec Stewart to take the test job. Can't do much about the captaincy now but Broad might have been a better shout. If someone could push Ramprakash out of the plane on the way home that'd help. |
Broad doesn't deserve the captaincy.
Maybe when they told him he was going to Aus, he thought they meant Oz, as every time he bats he does his best cowardly lion impression.
Looks like glen McGrath will be right (again), another 5-0 whitewash seems inevitable. |  |
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| Ashes Thread on 14:29 - Dec 18 with 2570 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Ashes Thread on 09:22 - Dec 18 by robith |
Pray tell, what exactly has Broad done in this series to suggest he'd be good captain material? He's been annoymous |
What has his bowling to do with captaincy? The idea that we pick the captain on the basis of his impact on the series is exactly what got Root the job (and Cook before him) and its exactly wrong.
TBH it's mainly that he's not our best batsman so there's no issue of his form being affected by the captaincy, which seems to have happened to Root and most previous captains. He's experienced and has a bit of authority about him whereas Root is young and lacks gravitas - good bloke to have cracking jokes and cheering people up, and tactically astute, but I can't imagine him rallying the side or getting the psychology of his players right like Vaughan or Brearley.
I'm not saying Broad is an obvious choice, but Root is an obvious not-choice and there are damn few others available. Malan maybe - been about, seems to have his head screwed on, but it would have been a wildly left field choice at the time. Anderson perhaps, but I worry about his temperament. (I wonder how Stokes would have responded - maybe the responsibility would have kept him off the streets late at night? Too late now.) |  | | |
| Ashes Thread on 14:49 - Dec 18 with 2550 views | Hunterhoop |
| Ashes Thread on 14:29 - Dec 18 by CiderwithRsie |
What has his bowling to do with captaincy? The idea that we pick the captain on the basis of his impact on the series is exactly what got Root the job (and Cook before him) and its exactly wrong.
TBH it's mainly that he's not our best batsman so there's no issue of his form being affected by the captaincy, which seems to have happened to Root and most previous captains. He's experienced and has a bit of authority about him whereas Root is young and lacks gravitas - good bloke to have cracking jokes and cheering people up, and tactically astute, but I can't imagine him rallying the side or getting the psychology of his players right like Vaughan or Brearley.
I'm not saying Broad is an obvious choice, but Root is an obvious not-choice and there are damn few others available. Malan maybe - been about, seems to have his head screwed on, but it would have been a wildly left field choice at the time. Anderson perhaps, but I worry about his temperament. (I wonder how Stokes would have responded - maybe the responsibility would have kept him off the streets late at night? Too late now.) |
To be fair, Cider, I think Robith was referring to two problems when saying Broad has done nothing.
Firstly, he deserves to be dropped. If Woakes had contributed what he has, he would be dropped. As would Ball. As would Wood. As would TRJ. The bloke is taking the new ball, getting no wickets, and is scared of the ball when batting. If a batsmen was in his form, people would be screaming for him to be dropped. Batsmen get a lot more leeway than bowlers in the England set up. Broad was a great cricketer for England, but is not playing like one anymore.
Secondly, as a very senior player in this side, he's hardly "stepped up" in this series, either as a player of as a leader. He's been completely anonymous. And, you'd presume, being so experienced, he would have been able to have a word in Root's ear in all the Tests about fielding positions, plans, and bowling changes. That's how it works; you have time to talk. Either he has, and his advice was rubbish, or Root ignored it, or he's not offered advice. Either way, not exactly screaming captain material.
I'll add a 3rd too, he's not actually very smart and has hardly any captaincy experience. Didn't captain his county (2 of them) at all, and his T20 captaincy was very very short lived.
I'd drop him entirely.
Nevertheless, you are right about the captaincy thing. There are no good choices in this team, which tells you all you need to know about the "characters" and "character" of this England team. If anyone, it should probably have been Anderson as the most experienced pro, but he's very moody and i think likes to wallow in his moodiness.
Morgan is a good "captain", but, even as a Middx fan, his 4 day form is pretty bang average and, at times, he wouldn't get in the Middx side, let alone England. But, then, he has proven to be international standard and we do need a captain.
Malan has captained Middx in the T20 and 50 over stuff occasionally, but a) he's not very good at it, and b) he's renowned at Middx for having been quite an immature (petulant and switches off) cricketer. It's great he's making a success of his chance; he has always had the talent. He was comfortably the most talented English batsmen in county cricket outside of the set up before he was called up, but he so often switched off and gave his wicket away.
Eng should have picked Plunkett in the squad. And they certainly should have picked Samit Patel in the squad; a like for like back up to Ali who could come in now and solidify the batting.
Nevertheless, they can do worse now than bringing in Wood for Broad, and Crane for Ali. Long tail, but it's batting like a long tail as it is. I'm sure they'll offer more with the ball.
Root will just have to ride it out with the captaincy for now. Learn a few things.
In terms of the long term: Sam Curran, Jofrey Archer, Tom Helm, Max Holden, Sam Northeast, Dan Lawrence....all look exciting cricketers. |  | | |
| Ashes Thread on 15:34 - Dec 18 with 2537 views | ElHoop |
| Ashes Thread on 14:49 - Dec 18 by Hunterhoop |
To be fair, Cider, I think Robith was referring to two problems when saying Broad has done nothing.
Firstly, he deserves to be dropped. If Woakes had contributed what he has, he would be dropped. As would Ball. As would Wood. As would TRJ. The bloke is taking the new ball, getting no wickets, and is scared of the ball when batting. If a batsmen was in his form, people would be screaming for him to be dropped. Batsmen get a lot more leeway than bowlers in the England set up. Broad was a great cricketer for England, but is not playing like one anymore.
Secondly, as a very senior player in this side, he's hardly "stepped up" in this series, either as a player of as a leader. He's been completely anonymous. And, you'd presume, being so experienced, he would have been able to have a word in Root's ear in all the Tests about fielding positions, plans, and bowling changes. That's how it works; you have time to talk. Either he has, and his advice was rubbish, or Root ignored it, or he's not offered advice. Either way, not exactly screaming captain material.
I'll add a 3rd too, he's not actually very smart and has hardly any captaincy experience. Didn't captain his county (2 of them) at all, and his T20 captaincy was very very short lived.
I'd drop him entirely.
Nevertheless, you are right about the captaincy thing. There are no good choices in this team, which tells you all you need to know about the "characters" and "character" of this England team. If anyone, it should probably have been Anderson as the most experienced pro, but he's very moody and i think likes to wallow in his moodiness.
Morgan is a good "captain", but, even as a Middx fan, his 4 day form is pretty bang average and, at times, he wouldn't get in the Middx side, let alone England. But, then, he has proven to be international standard and we do need a captain.
Malan has captained Middx in the T20 and 50 over stuff occasionally, but a) he's not very good at it, and b) he's renowned at Middx for having been quite an immature (petulant and switches off) cricketer. It's great he's making a success of his chance; he has always had the talent. He was comfortably the most talented English batsmen in county cricket outside of the set up before he was called up, but he so often switched off and gave his wicket away.
Eng should have picked Plunkett in the squad. And they certainly should have picked Samit Patel in the squad; a like for like back up to Ali who could come in now and solidify the batting.
Nevertheless, they can do worse now than bringing in Wood for Broad, and Crane for Ali. Long tail, but it's batting like a long tail as it is. I'm sure they'll offer more with the ball.
Root will just have to ride it out with the captaincy for now. Learn a few things.
In terms of the long term: Sam Curran, Jofrey Archer, Tom Helm, Max Holden, Sam Northeast, Dan Lawrence....all look exciting cricketers. |
I never saw Broad as a captain of the test side. For a start he's a bowler and i don't really like bowlers as captains, in the same way that I don't much like ex-defenders as football managers. Sure there are some exceptions but most of the great captains were batsmen or could at least bat well. I'm not that keen on all-rounders being captain either, as they need more rest and captaincy is hardly what you need if you are a key member of the side with both bat and ball.
Which is why Root has the job but he just looks miserable these days. OK getting stuffed by Oz isn't much fun but he has surely suffered as a batsman since he got the job? But who else is there? They won't give it to the pisshead brigade and just about everyone else is struggling to confirm their place in the side. It's a mess. | | | |
| Ashes Thread on 15:37 - Dec 18 with 2534 views | CiderwithRsie |
Top post Hunter, much better put than I could and much more knowledgeable too!
I'm not really pushing Broad as captain just desperate for someone else. You're bang right about not only the lack of captains but what it tells us about England and the lack of planning and development of players, especially their character and the art of leadership.
Also agree about the team changes. In particular I really like Ali as a bloke and he's done a lot for England but he has played himself out of the side for me - we might as well give Crane a go, he can't be worse in either department and at least it'd be good experience for him. | | | |
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| Ashes Thread on 15:52 - Dec 18 with 2524 views | ted_hendrix |
| Ashes Thread on 15:37 - Dec 18 by CiderwithRsie |
Top post Hunter, much better put than I could and much more knowledgeable too!
I'm not really pushing Broad as captain just desperate for someone else. You're bang right about not only the lack of captains but what it tells us about England and the lack of planning and development of players, especially their character and the art of leadership.
Also agree about the team changes. In particular I really like Ali as a bloke and he's done a lot for England but he has played himself out of the side for me - we might as well give Crane a go, he can't be worse in either department and at least it'd be good experience for him. |
Latest quote from Root;
""I'd like to think Cook, Broad and Anderson will be in the team in a year's time, said Root.
They have a huge amount of experience and offer a lot to the group. The senior guys have proven time and time again that they have got it.
It's important we don't panic and make any hasty decisions after three games." |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| Ashes Thread on 16:35 - Dec 18 with 2491 views | ElHoop |
| Ashes Thread on 15:52 - Dec 18 by ted_hendrix |
Latest quote from Root;
""I'd like to think Cook, Broad and Anderson will be in the team in a year's time, said Root.
They have a huge amount of experience and offer a lot to the group. The senior guys have proven time and time again that they have got it.
It's important we don't panic and make any hasty decisions after three games." |
Broad had that '8 for' in the last home ashes series and then a 'six for' in South Africa nearly two years ago, but since then he's not taken '5 for' or more in a test match. That's two years without a 'five for' for a main strike bowler. He's not really got anywhere near in fact. Perhaps he's just worn out, shot - tall bowler, more moving parts - I'm not sure how long these big fast bowlers tend to last. No much longer than this I suspect. Anderson looks able to go on a for bit longer though so Root's right about that - still maintaining good form. Cook though, if you ignore the 243 has been poor for a while now - a lot longer than it seemed that it took for them to drop Strauss all those years ago. We're not going to drop him now but if he keeps on failing then he might make up their minds for them. | | | |
| Ashes Thread on 22:56 - Dec 18 with 2418 views | SydneyRs |
| Ashes Thread on 12:02 - Dec 18 by ElHoop |
I've heard them talking about Smith's technique a lot on radio and TV. Whilst I don't really understand this stuff, it seems as if his initial movement is less about being part of his batting action and more about getting him into a position where he can then move wherever he wants when he gets lined up to play a shot. So it's like a way of getting moving before he actually has to fully commit himself. Maybe that gives him a little bit more time to play the shot.
Seemingly he made this change during or after a series against England and since then his average has become almost Bradmanesque. He's officially rated as the world number 1 batsman anyway so he's doing something right. Kohli is rated 2 and Root 3. |
If you look at the runs scored in the series Smith is miles ahead as you would expect but the next two are England batsmen and the other Aussie batsmen don't really figure prominently. He;s pretty much been the difference on his own. | | | |
| Ashes Thread on 23:06 - Dec 18 with 2412 views | ElHoop |
| Ashes Thread on 22:56 - Dec 18 by SydneyRs |
If you look at the runs scored in the series Smith is miles ahead as you would expect but the next two are England batsmen and the other Aussie batsmen don't really figure prominently. He;s pretty much been the difference on his own. |
To be fair to the Ausies though, they've only lost wickets in three innings out of a possible six, so most of them have only had half the chances to score that the English have had. All six of our innings have gone the distance. | | | |
| Ashes Thread on 23:28 - Dec 18 with 2403 views | ozexile |
As a pom living in Sydney I've been dreading this series for a while. Anyone who watched Broad and Anderson in the world cup here 3 years ago could have told you they don't have the genuine pace anymore to trouble batsman over here.
And how we can go on an Ashes tour without a spinner beggars belief. Ali is not a spinner. He'll turn his arm over but he's not a specialist. Sometimes in Sydney you need 2 x spinners in the test. Expect that one to last 2 and a half days.
Totally embarrassing again.
Cook is gone. Great player but can't do it anymore let's hope he calls it a day after the Sydney Test. | | | |
| Ashes Thread on 00:07 - Dec 19 with 2380 views | qpr1976 |
A few thoughts.
England are poor away (almost as bad as QPR), having only won 1 series in 5 years abroad.
However, we're very good at home, having only lost 1 series in 5 years !
Our bowlers are more suited to English conditions, swing, reverse, etc. and not those of abroad. And we seem to pick a spinner for his batting prowess and not his spin ability.
Another point is we, very sportingly, seem to prepare our home pitches to give both sides a fair crack, although much depends on who wins the toss. Abroad Australia, India, South Africa, West Indies ALL prepare pitches to create maximum advantage to the home team.
I'd love to see how the Batting averages of England Captains over the last 40/50 years compare between when they were Captain & when they were not. I bet the vast majority of averages drop when Captain. The only Bowling Captain I recall in recent times are Emburey & Willis, so they don't count. Nor would Brearley, who was an average batsman and only in the side for his exceptional Captain skills.
Does any cricket fans out there know if and where I can access such stats ?
I've tried Wisden & CricInfo, but they don't seem to capture these stats.
Of the 4 mentioned to make way.....
Cook - It's in his own hands. After 150 Tests and our record run scorer, he has enough credit in the bank for the Selectors not to drop him. I think he'll go to New Zealand and maybe play next Summer. Remember we're still trying to find a settled opening partner, so we probably don't need to be looking for a 2nd one just yet.
Anderson has been our leading wicket taker in the current series and of all time. He'll also fair better in New Zealand where the climate will be closer to home. I think he also deserves to be picked until the end of next summer.
Ali, yep, squad member, but we need to start looking at better spin options. Crane ? Rashid ?
Broad - Sadly I think it's time for him. I wouldn't take him to NZ, I'd send him home to rest & get fit for next Summer. That's not to say he'll play next year, much will depend on the fitness and form of Roland-Jones, Wood, Overton, Ball, Curran, etc.
Anyway, let's hope we can stop the rot in the last 2 tests and avoid a 5-0 drubbing and get some momentum back in New Zealand where I'm happy to say, I will be cheering them all on in person. | | | |
| Ashes Thread on 08:58 - Dec 19 with 2276 views | ElHoop |
| Ashes Thread on 00:07 - Dec 19 by qpr1976 |
A few thoughts.
England are poor away (almost as bad as QPR), having only won 1 series in 5 years abroad.
However, we're very good at home, having only lost 1 series in 5 years !
Our bowlers are more suited to English conditions, swing, reverse, etc. and not those of abroad. And we seem to pick a spinner for his batting prowess and not his spin ability.
Another point is we, very sportingly, seem to prepare our home pitches to give both sides a fair crack, although much depends on who wins the toss. Abroad Australia, India, South Africa, West Indies ALL prepare pitches to create maximum advantage to the home team.
I'd love to see how the Batting averages of England Captains over the last 40/50 years compare between when they were Captain & when they were not. I bet the vast majority of averages drop when Captain. The only Bowling Captain I recall in recent times are Emburey & Willis, so they don't count. Nor would Brearley, who was an average batsman and only in the side for his exceptional Captain skills.
Does any cricket fans out there know if and where I can access such stats ?
I've tried Wisden & CricInfo, but they don't seem to capture these stats.
Of the 4 mentioned to make way.....
Cook - It's in his own hands. After 150 Tests and our record run scorer, he has enough credit in the bank for the Selectors not to drop him. I think he'll go to New Zealand and maybe play next Summer. Remember we're still trying to find a settled opening partner, so we probably don't need to be looking for a 2nd one just yet.
Anderson has been our leading wicket taker in the current series and of all time. He'll also fair better in New Zealand where the climate will be closer to home. I think he also deserves to be picked until the end of next summer.
Ali, yep, squad member, but we need to start looking at better spin options. Crane ? Rashid ?
Broad - Sadly I think it's time for him. I wouldn't take him to NZ, I'd send him home to rest & get fit for next Summer. That's not to say he'll play next year, much will depend on the fitness and form of Roland-Jones, Wood, Overton, Ball, Curran, etc.
Anyway, let's hope we can stop the rot in the last 2 tests and avoid a 5-0 drubbing and get some momentum back in New Zealand where I'm happy to say, I will be cheering them all on in person. |
I think that this is a decent summary of the captain/non-captain averages, but I've not really got time to pick out the English ones:
http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Captaincy/CaptaincyVsNonCaptain.asp
Overall Root's average is reasonably comparable but he seems to be struggling in this series. I'm not sure that he's ever been brilliant in Australia though. | | | |
| Ashes Thread on 09:48 - Dec 19 with 2262 views | CamberleyR |
That's a very interesting list. Of our captains of recent times, it seems Vaughan is the one who's average suffered the most when captain whereas most of the others, their difference in average is negligible when captain and not captain. Quite a few though (Atherton, Gooch, Gatting for example) had significantly better averages whilst captain. [Post edited 19 Dec 2017 9:51]
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| Ashes Thread on 14:24 - Dec 19 with 2199 views | qpr1976 |
Ah that’s brilliant Ehoop, I’m going to ponder over that when I’m next back on Nights.
I had a hunch Gooch would be an improver.
Thanks VERY much. I’m gonna enjoy absorbing all that. I’d been trying to researchbit myself and hadn’t got very far. Great find. | | | |
| Ashes Thread on 14:43 - Dec 19 with 2184 views | Discodroids |
Wouldn't have made any difference to the slow motion riot set in motion by the Aussie's but I would have liked to have seen Sam Robson on these Australian Batting strips.
Would have included Liam plunkett and somersets Jack leach . Easy with hindsight. Also Ben Foakes to start as the wicketkeeper leaving bairstow to bat at 5 or 6 for me. |  |
| "...The monkey is never dead, Dealer. The monkey never dies. When you kick him off, he just hides in a corner, waiting his turn." |
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| Ashes Thread on 15:01 - Dec 19 with 2176 views | ElHoop |
| Ashes Thread on 14:24 - Dec 19 by qpr1976 |
Ah that’s brilliant Ehoop, I’m going to ponder over that when I’m next back on Nights.
I had a hunch Gooch would be an improver.
Thanks VERY much. I’m gonna enjoy absorbing all that. I’d been trying to researchbit myself and hadn’t got very far. Great find. |
No problem - the powers of google.
Having had a look myself, I see that Bradman averaged 101 as captain - incredible. Smith is actually 74 as captain or was when this was done - not sure whether it's a constant update. That reflects the fact that he has improved so much since his change of technique. He could even rival Bradman's captaincy average at this rate of improvement. Sangakkara's captaincy average is also admirable.
Whether or not he had a good average as captain - I loved Vaughan being in charge. He was a bit special. There was also that series out there before he was captain, when he virtually took them on by himself. | | | |
| Ashes Thread on 17:04 - Dec 19 with 2122 views | ShotKneesHoop |
Very good and fair reply. Broad is not worth a wet one. |  |
| Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me! |
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| Ashes Thread on 03:16 - Dec 26 with 1959 views | jonno |
Meanwhile, the incompetence continues. Warner caught out on 99 but called back because Curran had overstepped for a no ball. Can it get any worse? |  | | |
| Ashes Thread on 08:58 - Dec 26 with 1916 views | colinallcars |
| Ashes Thread on 03:16 - Dec 26 by jonno |
Meanwhile, the incompetence continues. Warner caught out on 99 but called back because Curran had overstepped for a no ball. Can it get any worse? |
Sadly I think it could well get worse. |  | | |
| Ashes Thread on 09:32 - Dec 26 with 1900 views | flynnbo |
Poor team selection. Losing becoming a habit. |  | | |
| Ashes Thread on 12:29 - Dec 26 with 1831 views | CiderwithRsie |
Just caught up with that. As with everything else George Dobell writes I find it highly convincing, though I wonder if anyone with more technical knowledge than me could pull it apart. | | | |
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