| Private Education 10:48 - Jan 8 with 9049 views | Kerouac |
Firstly, what got me thinking about the subject...
I caught the start of Andrew Marr yesterday and they (Marr, Polly Toynbee and Fraser Nelson) were going through the papers.
The subject of Toby Young and his internet history came up and Toynbee was going to town on him.
Nelson made coments to the effect of, it was all in the past and at least he is a doer, passionate about his brief and should be judged on what he does now (instead of what he tweeted 5yrs ago).
He then praised Young as a journalist who actually put his money where his mouth was and put his ideas into practice, making a real difference, which is more than Toynbee or himself ever did.
Toynbee comes back with "Oh yes, because he just wants to create a school for his kids".
Nelson retorts; "Yes, it's better than sending them private as some columnists I could mention". Ouch!
A quick bit of online research reveals that Toynbee sent 2 out of her 3 children to Private School.
More interesting detail re: Toynbee...
- She is from a super privileged background
- She herself went to Private School in her primary years
- She still managed to fail the 11+ and went to a state school
- She achieved only 1 'A' level
- Yet still went to Oxford University
- She then drops out (like Corbyn) to "work in a factory and write great fiction in her spare time, like Tolstoy" 
- Before realising that the reality of working in a factory for long hours doesn't lend itself to such intellectual pursuits.
Is it just me or is this woman a f*cking imbecile.
...anyway, I digress.
Q1. What do the good posters of Planet Swans think about Private Education Vs State?
and
Q2. Why is it that people who call themselves left-wing (vote Labour, preach socialism and anti-privatisation) find privatisation to be such a good thing when it comes to their own offspring's education?
and
Q3. Why should anyone take these people seriously
Some reading matter; https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/jul/23/why-send-child-to-private-scho |  |
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| Private Education on 09:02 - Jan 9 with 1408 views | perchrockjack |
People should be free to spend their income as they wish
It's freedom and it's a concept totally misunderstood
You either have it or do not
And it IS all about envy |  |
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| Private Education on 09:12 - Jan 9 with 1403 views | gadgetuk |
I am not a fan of the grammar school system, particularly in its current form which basically creams off the top % of academically gifted children.
I don't know if it's the same everywhere but where I live there are three secondary/comprehensive schools, each having a specialist area of focus: One is a STEM academy, one has a focus on drama and the arts and the other has a great engineering/construction block where kids learn about plumbing, wiring, bricklaying etc. All of these schools offer the standard curriculum but it does mean parents have a choice where to send their kids given their particular talents. I don't think the schools themselves are the issue, rather the the targets set by central government which attempts to pigeonhole children and forces the school to focus on educational targets rather than the educational needs of the child. | | | |
| Private Education on 09:25 - Jan 9 with 1393 views | felixstowe_jack |
Even Labour agree that the comprehensive system is a failure. That is why so many Labour MPs send their children to private schools while at the same time oppose Grammar Schools and Private Schools. | |
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| Private Education on 10:11 - Jan 9 with 1361 views | exhmrc1 |
| Private Education on 09:02 - Jan 9 by perchrockjack |
People should be free to spend their income as they wish
It's freedom and it's a concept totally misunderstood
You either have it or do not
And it IS all about envy |
it isn't about freedom or the parents. The issue is do you believe every child should have an equal right to education or should some be favoured due to their parents wealth. My view is that each child should have an equal right to progress based on their abilities. You obviously don't believe that.
As far as comprehensive education is concerned the evidence certainly locally suggest it is working. Gower college has 30 students who have passed the Oxbridge entry exam and are awaiting news of whether they have been successful in their interviews. These will have mainly come through the local comprehensive system. Evidence shows about 20% will get in. Last year 175 went to leading Russell Group universities including Liverpool and over 1000 to all universities so this simply does not support the views expressed that the bright kids get left behind in comprehensives.
There are many problems with the state system not least funding. Private schools have class sizes of 15 whereas 30 is typical in state schools. The private kids are therefore given more time with their teachers. Also the parents are more able to afford additional private tuition than those in state schools. This further improves results. Most kids in private schools come from professional backgrounds and therefore inherit their parents intellectual abilities. Generally professional parents tend to be stricter with their children. Very often that is not the case in some non professional parents. I use the example of a boy I knew who was playing football and had just turned 14. The coach advised me he had been to the boys house only to be told by the mother she did not know where the child was. She had been out all night and so had he. The child has since had a history of crime and became well known to your former colleagues.
There is a huge disparity in the results between different comprehensive schools. Schools like Olchfa and Bishopston have vey high success rates compared to other schools. This is largely down to catchment areas and the reasons outlined above. Schools like Cefn Hengoed and Pentrehafod do excellent work but simply don't have the same level of professional parents. The recently retired head of Cefn Hengoed has just been given a gong in the recent Honours list for improving that school. | | | |
| Private Education on 10:20 - Jan 9 with 1359 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
Mohammed
Where have I said we need to pull down the rich ?
I haven’t have I , nope not once , your like a daily mail editor mun
And as that famous saying goes
Ie. Churchill
“He would say that wouldn’t he” . |  |
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| Private Education on 11:02 - Jan 9 with 1336 views | Mo_Wives |
| Private Education on 10:20 - Jan 9 by oh_tommy_tommy |
Mohammed
Where have I said we need to pull down the rich ?
I haven’t have I , nope not once , your like a daily mail editor mun
And as that famous saying goes
Ie. Churchill
“He would say that wouldn’t he” . |
"...so why should you be able to avoid this system not fit for purpose because you got a rich daddy ?"
There, Tom. You are complaining about some people avoiding a bad education because their parents can afford a better one. The obvious solution would be to remove the choice of the better education.
Surely you can see that by taking away the better education a child is having and giving them the sub standard one is not building up the poor, but instead tearing down the rich?
Edit- Oh and your tactic of 'show me where I said that...I never said that' only works if I had said that you had said that or if I had quoted you. [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 11:24]
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| Private Education on 11:05 - Jan 9 with 1335 views | squarebear |
| Private Education on 17:36 - Jan 8 by Joe_bradshaw |
I heard a statistic on radio 4 a few months ago that surprised me. People taking GCSE and A level exams are allowed extra time if they have special needs and/or are on the spectrum. Private school pupils get the extra time at a far higher percentage than state school pupils. I think it was 3 or 4 times higher. What does that tell us?
On a practical level, If private education was abolished tomorrow the state sector would need to accommodate 625,000 children into a system that is already groaning under the financial and physical pressure of today. |
My woman teaches at a private school and was amazed at the number of kids there who get extra time (she reckons facilitating exams is comical with so many having varying amounts of extra time).
But your figure re: the 625000 kids should be lower. A significant proportion of privately educated kids are from overseas. | | | |
| Private Education on 11:36 - Jan 9 with 1315 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
| Private Education on 11:02 - Jan 9 by Mo_Wives |
"...so why should you be able to avoid this system not fit for purpose because you got a rich daddy ?"
There, Tom. You are complaining about some people avoiding a bad education because their parents can afford a better one. The obvious solution would be to remove the choice of the better education.
Surely you can see that by taking away the better education a child is having and giving them the sub standard one is not building up the poor, but instead tearing down the rich?
Edit- Oh and your tactic of 'show me where I said that...I never said that' only works if I had said that you had said that or if I had quoted you. [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 11:24]
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So there you go then Mohammed , I didn’t did I .
And nobody has in this thread either .
Tactics eh . | |
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| Private Education on 11:39 - Jan 9 with 1314 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
| Private Education on 09:02 - Jan 9 by perchrockjack |
People should be free to spend their income as they wish
It's freedom and it's a concept totally misunderstood
You either have it or do not
And it IS all about envy |
All about envy
Really Perch ? | |
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| Private Education on 12:04 - Jan 9 with 1295 views | londonlisa2001 |
Two things come to mind.
It's naive to think that state education doesn't depend on wealth as parents with higher income levels will move to the catchment areas of better state schools, which are almost always in the areas with higher house prices. They will also pay for extra tuition if necessary.
Second is that if the rich and powerful had to send their children to state schools, the standards of those schools would increase dramatically within a couple of years as governments (of any shade) would be forced to improve them and would take it seriously.
It's difficult, as on an individual basis you can't blame parents for paying for their kids to go to better schools if they can afford to do so. But I have no doubt that if private schools didn't exist the standard of education across the board would be higher. | | | |
| Private Education on 12:14 - Jan 9 with 1287 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
| Private Education on 12:04 - Jan 9 by londonlisa2001 |
Two things come to mind.
It's naive to think that state education doesn't depend on wealth as parents with higher income levels will move to the catchment areas of better state schools, which are almost always in the areas with higher house prices. They will also pay for extra tuition if necessary.
Second is that if the rich and powerful had to send their children to state schools, the standards of those schools would increase dramatically within a couple of years as governments (of any shade) would be forced to improve them and would take it seriously.
It's difficult, as on an individual basis you can't blame parents for paying for their kids to go to better schools if they can afford to do so. But I have no doubt that if private schools didn't exist the standard of education across the board would be higher. |
Bravo Lisa
That’s the end of thread for me ðŸ‘🻠| |
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| Private Education on 12:24 - Jan 9 with 1281 views | Mo_Wives |
| Private Education on 12:04 - Jan 9 by londonlisa2001 |
Two things come to mind.
It's naive to think that state education doesn't depend on wealth as parents with higher income levels will move to the catchment areas of better state schools, which are almost always in the areas with higher house prices. They will also pay for extra tuition if necessary.
Second is that if the rich and powerful had to send their children to state schools, the standards of those schools would increase dramatically within a couple of years as governments (of any shade) would be forced to improve them and would take it seriously.
It's difficult, as on an individual basis you can't blame parents for paying for their kids to go to better schools if they can afford to do so. But I have no doubt that if private schools didn't exist the standard of education across the board would be higher. |
I agree with what you're saying here Lisa.
Now let me ask you, If a parent Thinks their child would be better off going to a private school or they could do worse going to a state school but all the other kids could do better. Should they be allowed to choose to give their child the best possible advantage or should the freedom of choice be removed, because that parent has a duty of care to everyone else's children, and the child be forced into state school?
I personally think a parent has a duty to give their child the best chance possible. | |
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| Private Education on 12:36 - Jan 9 with 1271 views | gadgetuk |
I partially agree, in that if there was only one type of school available (No Private/Grammar etc) then in theory there could be an increase in the standards, however I do believe it to be a bit idealistic.
If you look at further education, 30 years ago you had polytechnics which focused on technical skills, and universities which focused on academic. I think the transformation of polytechnics into universities has had a hugely detrimental impact resulting in the skills shortage we often hear of in the manufacturing and construction industries.
I will also add that where I live the catchment area includes the relatively affluent area I live in as well as one of the biggest council estates around. The mix of kids in the school is as diverse as it gets. The school is continually rated outstanding. The reason it works is because the school is incredibly strict and pushes the children to do the best they can. It isn't always about money, (it certainly helps) but it's more about the drive by parents and teachers to help their kids succeed. [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 12:36]
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| Private Education on 12:37 - Jan 9 with 1266 views | Mo_Wives |
| Private Education on 12:36 - Jan 9 by gadgetuk |
I partially agree, in that if there was only one type of school available (No Private/Grammar etc) then in theory there could be an increase in the standards, however I do believe it to be a bit idealistic.
If you look at further education, 30 years ago you had polytechnics which focused on technical skills, and universities which focused on academic. I think the transformation of polytechnics into universities has had a hugely detrimental impact resulting in the skills shortage we often hear of in the manufacturing and construction industries.
I will also add that where I live the catchment area includes the relatively affluent area I live in as well as one of the biggest council estates around. The mix of kids in the school is as diverse as it gets. The school is continually rated outstanding. The reason it works is because the school is incredibly strict and pushes the children to do the best they can. It isn't always about money, (it certainly helps) but it's more about the drive by parents and teachers to help their kids succeed. [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 12:36]
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Great post. | |
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| Private Education on 12:38 - Jan 9 with 1264 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Private Education on 12:24 - Jan 9 by Mo_Wives |
I agree with what you're saying here Lisa.
Now let me ask you, If a parent Thinks their child would be better off going to a private school or they could do worse going to a state school but all the other kids could do better. Should they be allowed to choose to give their child the best possible advantage or should the freedom of choice be removed, because that parent has a duty of care to everyone else's children, and the child be forced into state school?
I personally think a parent has a duty to give their child the best chance possible. |
I think individually they should be able to send their kid to a private school if they exist.
That's why I said it was difficult, because on an individual basis you can understand it.
As I said, it would only 'work' if there was no private school provision. In which case the state schools would improve. Probably in a nano second to be honest.
But those with wealth would still gain an advantage, as they would move to the catchment areas of the best state schools, would pay for tuition, etc etc.
The issue with this, as with everything else, is that governments listen to those with power and a voice. Unfortunately, that equates in this country and probably every other, with wealth.
At least on a brighter note, the over entitled prat that is Toby Young has been forced to step down. | | | |
| Private Education on 12:44 - Jan 9 with 1253 views | Mo_Wives |
| Private Education on 12:38 - Jan 9 by londonlisa2001 |
I think individually they should be able to send their kid to a private school if they exist.
That's why I said it was difficult, because on an individual basis you can understand it.
As I said, it would only 'work' if there was no private school provision. In which case the state schools would improve. Probably in a nano second to be honest.
But those with wealth would still gain an advantage, as they would move to the catchment areas of the best state schools, would pay for tuition, etc etc.
The issue with this, as with everything else, is that governments listen to those with power and a voice. Unfortunately, that equates in this country and probably every other, with wealth.
At least on a brighter note, the over entitled prat that is Toby Young has been forced to step down. |
Great post, Lisa.
Have a word with Tommy the Commie will you Lisa, he listens to you. Before you know it he'll have us all equally uncomfortable in government issue boiler suits, all equally gagging on our government issue porridge and all going to work in our government issue Sinclair C5's.
Only joking, Tom, you know I love you really   | |
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| Private Education on 12:45 - Jan 9 with 1251 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Private Education on 12:36 - Jan 9 by gadgetuk |
I partially agree, in that if there was only one type of school available (No Private/Grammar etc) then in theory there could be an increase in the standards, however I do believe it to be a bit idealistic.
If you look at further education, 30 years ago you had polytechnics which focused on technical skills, and universities which focused on academic. I think the transformation of polytechnics into universities has had a hugely detrimental impact resulting in the skills shortage we often hear of in the manufacturing and construction industries.
I will also add that where I live the catchment area includes the relatively affluent area I live in as well as one of the biggest council estates around. The mix of kids in the school is as diverse as it gets. The school is continually rated outstanding. The reason it works is because the school is incredibly strict and pushes the children to do the best they can. It isn't always about money, (it certainly helps) but it's more about the drive by parents and teachers to help their kids succeed. [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 12:36]
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Your last paragraph is an example of the effect I think it would have if there were no private provision.
As an aside, of course it won't happen - I wasn't suggesting it would.
On the university / polytechnic point, I think the big issue with higher education has come from firstly the mania to see 50% of people attending university, which was never based on employment need but on a way to massage unemployment figures, and secondly from the creation of the maximum £9k fee which has turned into a minimum fee. | | | |
| Private Education on 12:46 - Jan 9 with 1250 views | Kerouac |
| Private Education on 12:38 - Jan 9 by londonlisa2001 |
I think individually they should be able to send their kid to a private school if they exist.
That's why I said it was difficult, because on an individual basis you can understand it.
As I said, it would only 'work' if there was no private school provision. In which case the state schools would improve. Probably in a nano second to be honest.
But those with wealth would still gain an advantage, as they would move to the catchment areas of the best state schools, would pay for tuition, etc etc.
The issue with this, as with everything else, is that governments listen to those with power and a voice. Unfortunately, that equates in this country and probably every other, with wealth.
At least on a brighter note, the over entitled prat that is Toby Young has been forced to step down. |
"As I said, it would only 'work' if there was no private school provision. In which case the state schools would improve. Probably in a nano second to be honest. "
How do you envisage this improvement coming about?
What would change? | |
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| Private Education on 12:51 - Jan 9 with 1245 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Private Education on 12:46 - Jan 9 by Kerouac |
"As I said, it would only 'work' if there was no private school provision. In which case the state schools would improve. Probably in a nano second to be honest. "
How do you envisage this improvement coming about?
What would change? |
Firstly, as I said, it won't happen, I was just saying what effect it would have if it did happen.
But what would change if the rich and powerful had to send their kids to the same schools as everyone else?
Everything. Schools would improve overnight. | | | |
| Private Education on 12:58 - Jan 9 with 1235 views | Kerouac |
| Private Education on 12:51 - Jan 9 by londonlisa2001 |
Firstly, as I said, it won't happen, I was just saying what effect it would have if it did happen.
But what would change if the rich and powerful had to send their kids to the same schools as everyone else?
Everything. Schools would improve overnight. |
...but what would "the rich and the powerful" lobby the government to do as regards education?
What would need to change?
and why is it that these changes cannot be made right now? | |
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| Private Education on 13:30 - Jan 9 with 1201 views | perchrockjack |
Yes Tom.it really is | |
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| Private Education on 13:30 - Jan 9 with 1201 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Private Education on 12:58 - Jan 9 by Kerouac |
...but what would "the rich and the powerful" lobby the government to do as regards education?
What would need to change?
and why is it that these changes cannot be made right now? |
They would be less accepting of any justification for poor performance for one. Both at a school level, a local authority level and national level.
Would be far more demanding of explanation. Get more involved themselves. More money would be found (as it is always spent on those things governments think the powerful care about the most).
I'll give you a tiny example that I know about from having family that live there.
There is a state primary school in Barnes (an affluent area of South West London). They needed a new playground (or a refurb actually). It took 2 weeks or so for the parents to raise about £150k that was needed, and within another few weeks, contractors had been found, the council had given permissions and within a couple of months the work was done. The reason that happened is because parents had money, were organised, able to put on a series of fund raising events, knew the right people, the local authority wouldn't dare to p*ss them off. They simply wouldn't accept 'we don't have the funds to do it' as an answer.
All the kids in that school benefit. Including those that are from households that wouldn't normally have the clout to make it happen.
In those sorts of areas, if there is a problem, for example with a teacher, the parents just don't put up with it. They demand change.
The whole point of the wealth / power bit, is that they don't accept excuses. They are able to get stuff done. And they have the confidence to do it.
Parents from less affluent areas, in general, care just as much about their kids' education, but they lack the connections or the confidence to be as demanding.
It's absolutely terrible that people who have less, are often cowed into thinking that they have to accept what they're given. They often don't have the confidence to say 'sorry, but that's simply not good enough'.
One of the most striking differences between kids that are privately educated and those that are not is the level of confidence the private school kids have. It's astonishing how different they are. The schools breed confidence and connections. | | | |
| Private Education on 13:32 - Jan 9 with 1197 views | perchrockjack |
I agree with that last sentence ,for sure. | |
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