| Private Education 10:48 - Jan 8 with 9046 views | Kerouac |
Firstly, what got me thinking about the subject...
I caught the start of Andrew Marr yesterday and they (Marr, Polly Toynbee and Fraser Nelson) were going through the papers.
The subject of Toby Young and his internet history came up and Toynbee was going to town on him.
Nelson made coments to the effect of, it was all in the past and at least he is a doer, passionate about his brief and should be judged on what he does now (instead of what he tweeted 5yrs ago).
He then praised Young as a journalist who actually put his money where his mouth was and put his ideas into practice, making a real difference, which is more than Toynbee or himself ever did.
Toynbee comes back with "Oh yes, because he just wants to create a school for his kids".
Nelson retorts; "Yes, it's better than sending them private as some columnists I could mention". Ouch!
A quick bit of online research reveals that Toynbee sent 2 out of her 3 children to Private School.
More interesting detail re: Toynbee...
- She is from a super privileged background
- She herself went to Private School in her primary years
- She still managed to fail the 11+ and went to a state school
- She achieved only 1 'A' level
- Yet still went to Oxford University
- She then drops out (like Corbyn) to "work in a factory and write great fiction in her spare time, like Tolstoy" 
- Before realising that the reality of working in a factory for long hours doesn't lend itself to such intellectual pursuits.
Is it just me or is this woman a f*cking imbecile.
...anyway, I digress.
Q1. What do the good posters of Planet Swans think about Private Education Vs State?
and
Q2. Why is it that people who call themselves left-wing (vote Labour, preach socialism and anti-privatisation) find privatisation to be such a good thing when it comes to their own offspring's education?
and
Q3. Why should anyone take these people seriously
Some reading matter; https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/jul/23/why-send-child-to-private-scho |  |
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| Private Education on 13:34 - Jan 9 with 1512 views | Neath_Jack |
I was going to send my youngest to a private school, St Clares in Porthcawl, went and met the head, she had a taster day there, but she didn't like it. Should i have forced her to go to that school, to give her the best chance? Nah, that's not for me, despite me preferring that she did.
They are not that expensive to send children to, not in South Wales anyway. It is wrong that those that can afford to send their children there, get a better education, but i don't think they are a bad thing, or should be abolished. Unfair, yes. |  |
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| Private Education on 13:37 - Jan 9 with 1504 views | perchrockjack |
But life IS unfair Nj.
The fact that we are all of different intelect and intelligence evidences that
Some have greater educational capacity and some have greater artisan skills
All unfair, none bad |  |
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| Private Education on 13:43 - Jan 9 with 1492 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Private Education on 13:37 - Jan 9 by perchrockjack |
But life IS unfair Nj.
The fact that we are all of different intelect and intelligence evidences that
Some have greater educational capacity and some have greater artisan skills
All unfair, none bad |
"we are all of different intelect".
Indeed.  | | | |
| Private Education on 13:43 - Jan 9 with 1491 views | Mo_Wives |
| Private Education on 13:34 - Jan 9 by Neath_Jack |
I was going to send my youngest to a private school, St Clares in Porthcawl, went and met the head, she had a taster day there, but she didn't like it. Should i have forced her to go to that school, to give her the best chance? Nah, that's not for me, despite me preferring that she did.
They are not that expensive to send children to, not in South Wales anyway. It is wrong that those that can afford to send their children there, get a better education, but i don't think they are a bad thing, or should be abolished. Unfair, yes. |
But if she had wanted to go and you (daddy) could afford it then you should be allowed to choose that, Yes? |  |
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| Private Education on 14:33 - Jan 9 with 1459 views | Mo_Wives |
| Private Education on 13:43 - Jan 9 by londonlisa2001 |
"we are all of different intelect".
Indeed. |
That's a good one. Could be in Perch's greatest hits | |
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| Private Education on 14:46 - Jan 9 with 1449 views | swanforthemoney |
| Private Education on 16:58 - Jan 8 by FieryJack |
Privately-educated people are badly handicapped by an inability to mix with or empathise with the 93% of the population who have not been privately educated.
Seen Rees-Mogg in your local lately?
Thought not.
Divisive & depressing. |
Good points. I mixed with quite a few them at work. The one thing that was a bit galling was how a Private Education allowed some of the criminally thick ones to get good jobs by contacts, blagging and bluster. |  |
| I stand in the North Stand
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| Private Education on 14:50 - Jan 9 with 1446 views | sherpajacob |
| Private Education on 10:11 - Jan 9 by exhmrc1 |
it isn't about freedom or the parents. The issue is do you believe every child should have an equal right to education or should some be favoured due to their parents wealth. My view is that each child should have an equal right to progress based on their abilities. You obviously don't believe that.
As far as comprehensive education is concerned the evidence certainly locally suggest it is working. Gower college has 30 students who have passed the Oxbridge entry exam and are awaiting news of whether they have been successful in their interviews. These will have mainly come through the local comprehensive system. Evidence shows about 20% will get in. Last year 175 went to leading Russell Group universities including Liverpool and over 1000 to all universities so this simply does not support the views expressed that the bright kids get left behind in comprehensives.
There are many problems with the state system not least funding. Private schools have class sizes of 15 whereas 30 is typical in state schools. The private kids are therefore given more time with their teachers. Also the parents are more able to afford additional private tuition than those in state schools. This further improves results. Most kids in private schools come from professional backgrounds and therefore inherit their parents intellectual abilities. Generally professional parents tend to be stricter with their children. Very often that is not the case in some non professional parents. I use the example of a boy I knew who was playing football and had just turned 14. The coach advised me he had been to the boys house only to be told by the mother she did not know where the child was. She had been out all night and so had he. The child has since had a history of crime and became well known to your former colleagues.
There is a huge disparity in the results between different comprehensive schools. Schools like Olchfa and Bishopston have vey high success rates compared to other schools. This is largely down to catchment areas and the reasons outlined above. Schools like Cefn Hengoed and Pentrehafod do excellent work but simply don't have the same level of professional parents. The recently retired head of Cefn Hengoed has just been given a gong in the recent Honours list for improving that school. |
." Gower college has 30 students who have passed the Oxbridge entry exam and are awaiting news of whether they have been successful in their interviews....Evidence shows about 20% will get in.
I have no evidence, but I guess that if a student at Eton passes the Oxbridge entry exam there is a 100% chance they get in.
It's not buying you a better education, it's buying you a way in. |  |
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| Private Education on 14:59 - Jan 9 with 1434 views | exhmrc1 |
| Private Education on 14:50 - Jan 9 by sherpajacob |
." Gower college has 30 students who have passed the Oxbridge entry exam and are awaiting news of whether they have been successful in their interviews....Evidence shows about 20% will get in.
I have no evidence, but I guess that if a student at Eton passes the Oxbridge entry exam there is a 100% chance they get in.
It's not buying you a better education, it's buying you a way in. |
Your suspicion is probably correct but the evidence is that only a small percentage of those interviewed actually get into Oxbridge.
I was told years ago by a teacher at Blundell's that he could ring Exeter and get his kids in. I dont know he true it was but that is what he told me.
Exeter used to be second choice for Eton students. | | | |
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| Private Education on 15:09 - Jan 9 with 1431 views | donnybackspin |
Sometimes our education system leaves no option.
You come home one day and your child is talking about suicide, you've been to the school numerous times, threatened the bullies and their parents and still F@@k all is done about it.
Put my child in private school best thing I ever did, had to work lots of extra hours and now I have a well educated but happy child.
I am certainly not a Tory. | | | |
| Private Education on 15:10 - Jan 9 with 1420 views | exhmrc1 |
| Private Education on 12:38 - Jan 9 by londonlisa2001 |
I think individually they should be able to send their kid to a private school if they exist.
That's why I said it was difficult, because on an individual basis you can understand it.
As I said, it would only 'work' if there was no private school provision. In which case the state schools would improve. Probably in a nano second to be honest.
But those with wealth would still gain an advantage, as they would move to the catchment areas of the best state schools, would pay for tuition, etc etc.
The issue with this, as with everything else, is that governments listen to those with power and a voice. Unfortunately, that equates in this country and probably every other, with wealth.
At least on a brighter note, the over entitled prat that is Toby Young has been forced to step down. |
Your 4th paragraph highlights why schools with better catchment areas have higher percentage pass rates and why it is impossible to compare schools in different areas of the city. Say a 50% pass rate in a difficult catchment area might be far better than 80% in a wealthier area where parents may have paid for private tuition. | | | |
| Private Education on 15:23 - Jan 9 with 1420 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| Private Education on 12:04 - Jan 9 by londonlisa2001 |
Two things come to mind.
It's naive to think that state education doesn't depend on wealth as parents with higher income levels will move to the catchment areas of better state schools, which are almost always in the areas with higher house prices. They will also pay for extra tuition if necessary.
Second is that if the rich and powerful had to send their children to state schools, the standards of those schools would increase dramatically within a couple of years as governments (of any shade) would be forced to improve them and would take it seriously.
It's difficult, as on an individual basis you can't blame parents for paying for their kids to go to better schools if they can afford to do so. But I have no doubt that if private schools didn't exist the standard of education across the board would be higher. |
Spot on.
We moved to Bishopston Comp catchment area specifically to make sure that our two went there. We were lucky that we were able to do it - not everyone can. The school was outstanding for them and proved to be the making of them. The primary school they went to in Newton was very poor though so it’s not always straightforward.
We have friends whose son was asked to leave a private school in Llanelli because he wasn’t achieving and they didn’t want him to take GCSEs in case his results impacted on their reputation.
Outrageous. |  |
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| Private Education on 15:31 - Jan 9 with 1412 views | exhmrc1 |
| Private Education on 15:23 - Jan 9 by Joe_bradshaw |
Spot on.
We moved to Bishopston Comp catchment area specifically to make sure that our two went there. We were lucky that we were able to do it - not everyone can. The school was outstanding for them and proved to be the making of them. The primary school they went to in Newton was very poor though so it’s not always straightforward.
We have friends whose son was asked to leave a private school in Llanelli because he wasn’t achieving and they didn’t want him to take GCSEs in case his results impacted on their reputation.
Outrageous. |
interesting
My son was in Gorseinon college years ago with a boy who had outstanding gcse results from a private school in Llanelli.
He did really badly in his a levels. The former comp pupils did far better.
Dom Dineen also attended a private school in Llanelli and his father Clifton College in Bristol [Post edited 9 Jan 2018 15:37]
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| Private Education on 15:42 - Jan 9 with 1411 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Private Education on 14:50 - Jan 9 by sherpajacob |
." Gower college has 30 students who have passed the Oxbridge entry exam and are awaiting news of whether they have been successful in their interviews....Evidence shows about 20% will get in.
I have no evidence, but I guess that if a student at Eton passes the Oxbridge entry exam there is a 100% chance they get in.
It's not buying you a better education, it's buying you a way in. |
You may be surprised to know that the bit about Etonians getting accepted is actually quite a long way from the truth now.
I know of two people whose kid in one case, nephew in the other, both were turned down after interview even though both boys had all 'A*s' at A level and had both passed the entrance exam.
One friend (whose nephew was turned down), said that Eton had very low acceptance % into Oxford this year. Obviously, it's all relative... | | | |
| Private Education on 19:27 - Jan 9 with 1341 views | Lohengrin |
| Private Education on 15:42 - Jan 9 by londonlisa2001 |
You may be surprised to know that the bit about Etonians getting accepted is actually quite a long way from the truth now.
I know of two people whose kid in one case, nephew in the other, both were turned down after interview even though both boys had all 'A*s' at A level and had both passed the entrance exam.
One friend (whose nephew was turned down), said that Eton had very low acceptance % into Oxford this year. Obviously, it's all relative... |
They'll just have to swallow their pride and take the low road to Cambridge, love. 
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| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Private Education on 19:32 - Jan 9 with 1337 views | exiledclaseboy |
I’ve no issue with private education (or healthcare if it comes to that). People can spend their money in whichever way they want. But no public resources should be devoted to it. No tax breaks, no “creative” government funding, no charitable status and all that entails. |  |
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| Private Education on 19:50 - Jan 9 with 1326 views | perchrockjack |
Indeed Lisa and also we need to bear in mind we re not as smart as we like to think we are
Nobody has ever explained to me why those ,who are able , should not want the best education and start in life . I don't know if you have kids but I d be surprised if you sent them to a shyte school when a good one was available
Many matters divide Man which we are unable to control
Yes,perch is back alright
How s things with your new role in club matters .Have you made a difference yet. | |
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| Private Education on 20:29 - Jan 9 with 1306 views | waynekerr55 |
| Private Education on 15:23 - Jan 9 by Joe_bradshaw |
Spot on.
We moved to Bishopston Comp catchment area specifically to make sure that our two went there. We were lucky that we were able to do it - not everyone can. The school was outstanding for them and proved to be the making of them. The primary school they went to in Newton was very poor though so it’s not always straightforward.
We have friends whose son was asked to leave a private school in Llanelli because he wasn’t achieving and they didn’t want him to take GCSEs in case his results impacted on their reputation.
Outrageous. |
Yes, we've been extremely lucky that our flat in Watford went through the roof. We live by a very good primary school and there are also good schools around Hitchin too. Lucky, but hopefully our little one (maybe two with luck) will benefit from this. |  |
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| Private Education on 20:35 - Jan 9 with 1303 views | perchrockjack |
And that is unfair ,it could be argued as if your kid had been born in a " deprived" town ,he did be disadvantaged . It's a luck of birth . We don't choose where we re born nor our parents. It's luck. some lucky some not. It's life as it is.
As for Grammars and Comps, we ve had kids who ve been to both and ended up with the same qualifications .
We ve still got the Eleven plus here ....and Grammar Schools .. Parents want the best ...or should do | |
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| Private Education on 22:17 - Jan 9 with 1262 views | exhmrc1 |
what is very interesting is the gcse pass rate is higher in Swansea than Wirral or Liverpool and Swansea has no grammar schools just comprehensives. This evidence clearly shows that the system in Swansea even if it isn't working in other parts of Wales | | | |
| Private Education on 10:35 - Jan 10 with 1213 views | Kerouac |
| Private Education on 13:30 - Jan 9 by londonlisa2001 |
They would be less accepting of any justification for poor performance for one. Both at a school level, a local authority level and national level.
Would be far more demanding of explanation. Get more involved themselves. More money would be found (as it is always spent on those things governments think the powerful care about the most).
I'll give you a tiny example that I know about from having family that live there.
There is a state primary school in Barnes (an affluent area of South West London). They needed a new playground (or a refurb actually). It took 2 weeks or so for the parents to raise about £150k that was needed, and within another few weeks, contractors had been found, the council had given permissions and within a couple of months the work was done. The reason that happened is because parents had money, were organised, able to put on a series of fund raising events, knew the right people, the local authority wouldn't dare to p*ss them off. They simply wouldn't accept 'we don't have the funds to do it' as an answer.
All the kids in that school benefit. Including those that are from households that wouldn't normally have the clout to make it happen.
In those sorts of areas, if there is a problem, for example with a teacher, the parents just don't put up with it. They demand change.
The whole point of the wealth / power bit, is that they don't accept excuses. They are able to get stuff done. And they have the confidence to do it.
Parents from less affluent areas, in general, care just as much about their kids' education, but they lack the connections or the confidence to be as demanding.
It's absolutely terrible that people who have less, are often cowed into thinking that they have to accept what they're given. They often don't have the confidence to say 'sorry, but that's simply not good enough'.
One of the most striking differences between kids that are privately educated and those that are not is the level of confidence the private school kids have. It's astonishing how different they are. The schools breed confidence and connections. |
"They would be less accepting of any justification for poor performance for one. Both at a school level, a local authority level and national level.
Would be far more demanding of explanation. Get more involved themselves. More money would be found (as it is always spent on those things governments think the powerful care about the most)."
In every school across the country or just in the schools with the catchment areas that most of these people live?
Why aren't people demanding at a national level right now?
If in your scenario (no private schools and more engagement in the provision of education from the rich and the powerful) a lobby group is formed to demand higher standards and more accountability...how does that play out?
Which political party takes it forward?
Or would there then follow a narrative where the Teaching Unions and the Labour Party combine to resist change? The Labour Party defending those who work in education from those "nasty Tories".
Your example in Barnes, fair enough you get the right people pushing and in the ears of the right people and you can get action...but I struggle to believe you when you say;
"In those sorts of areas, if there is a problem, for example with a teacher, the parents just don't put up with it. They demand change."
It is virtually impossible to sack a teacher isn't it? | |
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| Private Education on 10:45 - Jan 10 with 1209 views | waynekerr55 |
| Private Education on 10:35 - Jan 10 by Kerouac |
"They would be less accepting of any justification for poor performance for one. Both at a school level, a local authority level and national level.
Would be far more demanding of explanation. Get more involved themselves. More money would be found (as it is always spent on those things governments think the powerful care about the most)."
In every school across the country or just in the schools with the catchment areas that most of these people live?
Why aren't people demanding at a national level right now?
If in your scenario (no private schools and more engagement in the provision of education from the rich and the powerful) a lobby group is formed to demand higher standards and more accountability...how does that play out?
Which political party takes it forward?
Or would there then follow a narrative where the Teaching Unions and the Labour Party combine to resist change? The Labour Party defending those who work in education from those "nasty Tories".
Your example in Barnes, fair enough you get the right people pushing and in the ears of the right people and you can get action...but I struggle to believe you when you say;
"In those sorts of areas, if there is a problem, for example with a teacher, the parents just don't put up with it. They demand change."
It is virtually impossible to sack a teacher isn't it? |
Your last line is incorrect. To even get through their NQT year is a challenge now.
Delays for moving staff on are more a procedural issue with a school/College/university rather than an inability | |
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| Private Education on 12:53 - Jan 10 with 1168 views | exhmrc1 |
what is really concerning is the difference in the pass rates between areas. Swansea average A to C pass rate was 72% Wirral 69% and Liverpool 50%. Within Swansea the pass rate ranges from 80+% down to approx. 40%. Much of this is to do with catchment areas and also the deprivation in each area.
One of the reasons as Lisa outlines is that some parents can and do get private tuition for their child.
Another is the kind of people living in each area. Where there are large amounts of professional parents the children often follow the intelligence of those parents. A further issue is that most professional parents provide support and encouragement. Often in deprived areas sadly this isn't the case and some who would do better with the appropriate parenting sadly miss out.
These are the reasons why pass percentages and league tables are meaningless. One will never know how Joe Bradshaw,s children would have performed in a different school. My suspicion is they would have done just as well as when the poorer performing school's get outstanding pupils they make the most of it. I am saying this from personal experience. | | | |
| Private Education on 13:10 - Jan 10 with 1157 views | Highjack |
| Private Education on 12:53 - Jan 10 by exhmrc1 |
what is really concerning is the difference in the pass rates between areas. Swansea average A to C pass rate was 72% Wirral 69% and Liverpool 50%. Within Swansea the pass rate ranges from 80+% down to approx. 40%. Much of this is to do with catchment areas and also the deprivation in each area.
One of the reasons as Lisa outlines is that some parents can and do get private tuition for their child.
Another is the kind of people living in each area. Where there are large amounts of professional parents the children often follow the intelligence of those parents. A further issue is that most professional parents provide support and encouragement. Often in deprived areas sadly this isn't the case and some who would do better with the appropriate parenting sadly miss out.
These are the reasons why pass percentages and league tables are meaningless. One will never know how Joe Bradshaw,s children would have performed in a different school. My suspicion is they would have done just as well as when the poorer performing school's get outstanding pupils they make the most of it. I am saying this from personal experience. |
It's harder to find time for revision when you're out nicking cars all the time so that would explain the Liverpool rate, but you're correct when you say the parents play a big role in education. Probably bigger than the teacher and the school itself. Many parents see school as free childcare while they go bugger off to do other things. Then when the kid gets home they chuck peppa pig on and give them an iPad and leave them to their devices.
A child who has parents who will spend time with them and show them how to do things always has a natural massive advantage. |  |
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| Private Education on 13:54 - Jan 10 with 1140 views | perchrockjack |
Why is Liverpool been brought into this
Ffs.
Really and truly | |
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| Private Education on 14:54 - Jan 10 with 1120 views | exhmrc1 |
because as can be seen below you brought in your son's education and grammar and comps so I used your locality that you know best to show an authority with no grammar schools is working whereas others with grammar schools are not.
And that is unfair ,it could be argued as if your kid had been born in a " deprived" town ,he did be disadvantaged . It's a luck of birth . We don't choose where we re born nor our parents. It's luck. some lucky some not. It's life as it is.
As for Grammars and Comps, we ve had kids who ve been to both and ended up with the same qualifications .
We ve still got the Eleven plus here ....and Grammar Schools .. Parents want the best ...or should do | | | |
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