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French Guyana Border - NI Border 13:43 - Oct 17 with 2963 viewswestwalesed

French Guyana is part of France, uses the Euro, and is part of the territory of the European Union.

It's border is over 1200km long and is shared with Brazil and Suriname. Is it a hard border all the way? I have no idea.

Just throwing this out there.


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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 09:53 - Oct 19 with 572 viewsCatullus

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 09:25 - Oct 19 by Professor

Lisa (and Kilkenny) are right. It was a Cameron gambit to win the election and take votes from UKIP and to muzzle the right wing of his party. The remain campaign was a massive 'cock up' , and Cameron did not bank on a left-wing Labour leader who, along with people like Frank Field, never supported the EU. They assumed victory and let lies (350 million a week for the NHS) and the charisma of Farage win votes along with the disaffected in Wales and the North vote leave (with exceptions like Liverpool and Manchester where EU money has driven their resurgence). People, also wrongly, believed voting leave would cause the collapse the Tory government and let Labour in -in effect it was a vote against Cameron who now looks like a sane and effective leader.

So we are left with the most ineffective PM in my lifetime (and yes that includes Jim Callaghan), opportunistic vultures like Boris and right wing nutters like Rees-Mogg and a mess of titanic proportions. I have seen few solutions to how Brexit will improve our lives and plenty of examples such as environmental protection , individual rights and public health that will be eroded. It is likely the DfID/ODA budget will be slashed (and I don't want any BS of how we should not have this- I have seen the difference it makes in Ethiopia and Malawi first hand). I am fifty and reasonably comfortable but what about my 16 and 12 year olds? Will they like many in the US have 3 jobs to make ends meet? We were duped and lied to. If the GFA collapses and a return to violence ensues then Brexit is beyond an omnishambles. Much of the work to allow Blair, Aherne and Clinton to back in its glory was done by Sir John Major's government. I think Sir John's ( an honourable and decent man in my opinion) recent lecture on the Brexit disaster is a prescient lesson for us,


I can't argue with you. Maybe though, the vote for leave wasn't just about dumping the tories, maybe people were fed up of decades of being treated like mugs by self serving, self righteous politicans who lie so often they wouldn't know the truth if it slapped them in the face.
You can't escape that we now know politicians lied about things when we had the 75 referendum. Politicians caused this mess, one way or the other. It's been lie after lie after lie and now we are all reaping what they sowed.
The only way to stop the madness is for the EU to reform, proper reform like several members are asking for.
The foreign aid comments, you have seen the good our money does yet money from corporate greed does much more harm, we are quite literally p/ss/ing into the wind. We are allowing the environment to be ruined, we are destroying peoples lives with military action where we shouldn't be poking our noses in and politicians tell us we should be doing this or that when it's a case of do as I say not as I do. This is why so many people say scrap foreign aid and spend our money on our country because, after decades of foreign aid and massive charity drives, is Africa better off? There is still massive emigration because of poverty, famine, drought and war. Dfid is a sticking plaster on a gaping wound, it throws good money after bad far too often.
Until there is a global change in attitudes very little real change will happen.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 12:24 - Oct 19 with 538 viewsProfessor

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 09:53 - Oct 19 by Catullus

I can't argue with you. Maybe though, the vote for leave wasn't just about dumping the tories, maybe people were fed up of decades of being treated like mugs by self serving, self righteous politicans who lie so often they wouldn't know the truth if it slapped them in the face.
You can't escape that we now know politicians lied about things when we had the 75 referendum. Politicians caused this mess, one way or the other. It's been lie after lie after lie and now we are all reaping what they sowed.
The only way to stop the madness is for the EU to reform, proper reform like several members are asking for.
The foreign aid comments, you have seen the good our money does yet money from corporate greed does much more harm, we are quite literally p/ss/ing into the wind. We are allowing the environment to be ruined, we are destroying peoples lives with military action where we shouldn't be poking our noses in and politicians tell us we should be doing this or that when it's a case of do as I say not as I do. This is why so many people say scrap foreign aid and spend our money on our country because, after decades of foreign aid and massive charity drives, is Africa better off? There is still massive emigration because of poverty, famine, drought and war. Dfid is a sticking plaster on a gaping wound, it throws good money after bad far too often.
Until there is a global change in attitudes very little real change will happen.


Some fair points there. I agree about EU reform. This could have been achieved with countries like Germany and the Netherlands if we had gone about it correctly.

Corporate greed is indeed an issue (and from some involved in driving Brexit).

As far as aid-much of the ODA budget is no longer a quick fix but in building capacity, infrastructure and knowledge. A lot more supports UK science training and developing structures that allow change in-country to health, engineering, agriculture etc. This is where differences are now being made. I now have a project in the Philippines (Newton Fund) improving small scale chicken production -this has the biggest impact on the poorest, usually in rural areas. The problem is, as you suggest, corporate exploitation and in many countries the absence of democracy and rampant corruption.
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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 12:40 - Oct 19 with 532 viewsCatullus

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 12:24 - Oct 19 by Professor

Some fair points there. I agree about EU reform. This could have been achieved with countries like Germany and the Netherlands if we had gone about it correctly.

Corporate greed is indeed an issue (and from some involved in driving Brexit).

As far as aid-much of the ODA budget is no longer a quick fix but in building capacity, infrastructure and knowledge. A lot more supports UK science training and developing structures that allow change in-country to health, engineering, agriculture etc. This is where differences are now being made. I now have a project in the Philippines (Newton Fund) improving small scale chicken production -this has the biggest impact on the poorest, usually in rural areas. The problem is, as you suggest, corporate exploitation and in many countries the absence of democracy and rampant corruption.


I like it when you jpin a thread because you don't hurl insults when you disagree, you make counter points and also I have learned from you, gaining knowledge is good! It has helped me to form new opinions on Brexit (for example) which, if there's a second referendum, might see me change my vote. If only politicians had tried using knowledge instead of fear.

It's also self affirming when someone who knows better (for want of a better way of saying it) agrees with me on some things!

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 12:52 - Oct 19 with 524 viewsJango

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 09:25 - Oct 19 by Professor

Lisa (and Kilkenny) are right. It was a Cameron gambit to win the election and take votes from UKIP and to muzzle the right wing of his party. The remain campaign was a massive 'cock up' , and Cameron did not bank on a left-wing Labour leader who, along with people like Frank Field, never supported the EU. They assumed victory and let lies (350 million a week for the NHS) and the charisma of Farage win votes along with the disaffected in Wales and the North vote leave (with exceptions like Liverpool and Manchester where EU money has driven their resurgence). People, also wrongly, believed voting leave would cause the collapse the Tory government and let Labour in -in effect it was a vote against Cameron who now looks like a sane and effective leader.

So we are left with the most ineffective PM in my lifetime (and yes that includes Jim Callaghan), opportunistic vultures like Boris and right wing nutters like Rees-Mogg and a mess of titanic proportions. I have seen few solutions to how Brexit will improve our lives and plenty of examples such as environmental protection , individual rights and public health that will be eroded. It is likely the DfID/ODA budget will be slashed (and I don't want any BS of how we should not have this- I have seen the difference it makes in Ethiopia and Malawi first hand). I am fifty and reasonably comfortable but what about my 16 and 12 year olds? Will they like many in the US have 3 jobs to make ends meet? We were duped and lied to. If the GFA collapses and a return to violence ensues then Brexit is beyond an omnishambles. Much of the work to allow Blair, Aherne and Clinton to back in its glory was done by Sir John Major's government. I think Sir John's ( an honourable and decent man in my opinion) recent lecture on the Brexit disaster is a prescient lesson for us,


70% of Tory constituencies voted leave. I doubt they wanted the collapse of the Tory party some how.
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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 13:06 - Oct 19 with 521 viewsCatullus

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 12:52 - Oct 19 by Jango

70% of Tory constituencies voted leave. I doubt they wanted the collapse of the Tory party some how.


Without seeing the voting information we can't know for sure how the Tory held areas voted exactly, I mean the breakdown of who voted what. In plenty of places Tories aren't the biggest group but won almost bt default when people voted for other parties. If it had been a straight two party choice things could have been different.
I haven't got the patience or the inclination to do that much research either.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 13:14 - Oct 19 with 518 viewsProfessor

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 12:52 - Oct 19 by Jango

70% of Tory constituencies voted leave. I doubt they wanted the collapse of the Tory party some how.


In Labour areas. This is important in strong traditional labour areas that voted leave. A colleague and friend (from Liverpool) said her parents and a sibling voted to "get rid of Cameron". She rightly said they were idiots. I am sure this is repeated elsewhere. Not as important (as Catallus and other say) the general disaffection, but all part of the same tapestry.
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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 13:25 - Oct 19 with 513 viewsProfessor

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 12:40 - Oct 19 by Catullus

I like it when you jpin a thread because you don't hurl insults when you disagree, you make counter points and also I have learned from you, gaining knowledge is good! It has helped me to form new opinions on Brexit (for example) which, if there's a second referendum, might see me change my vote. If only politicians had tried using knowledge instead of fear.

It's also self affirming when someone who knows better (for want of a better way of saying it) agrees with me on some things!


Thank you. I genuinely appreciate that.

I am lucky to do I job I like, in an environment that pays be relatively well and been able to see and experience life in many part of the world-not just as a tourist. Moderation, tolerance and thought are things I have learned through my work. I find things out, seek to understand processes and explain and discuss them. I have to defend what I do and argue its importance. This has to be rational and tempered. It costs nothing to be civil. Everyone has a view and usually there is something in all of them that is right, even if you find it an anathema to your own position. You always make valid points. I agree with some not others. Never go in shouting, Keep that for when it is needed.
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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 13:59 - Oct 19 with 500 viewsbluey_the_blue

Out of interest,which EU nation leader said this?

"… we are not drawing up any plans for a border between Northern Ireland and Ireland full stop. Because there isn’t going to be one and I have made very clear to my counterpart in the UK and also to the other EU Prime Ministers that under no circumstances will there be a border full stop.”
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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 14:10 - Oct 19 with 493 viewsHighjack

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 13:59 - Oct 19 by bluey_the_blue

Out of interest,which EU nation leader said this?

"… we are not drawing up any plans for a border between Northern Ireland and Ireland full stop. Because there isn’t going to be one and I have made very clear to my counterpart in the UK and also to the other EU Prime Ministers that under no circumstances will there be a border full stop.”


The Irish bloke, Mary Robinson or whatever he’s called these days?

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 15:14 - Oct 19 with 471 viewswestwalesed

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 13:14 - Oct 19 by Professor

In Labour areas. This is important in strong traditional labour areas that voted leave. A colleague and friend (from Liverpool) said her parents and a sibling voted to "get rid of Cameron". She rightly said they were idiots. I am sure this is repeated elsewhere. Not as important (as Catallus and other say) the general disaffection, but all part of the same tapestry.


Whilst I fully understand the implication of what you're saying - and please correct me if I'm wrong - but because people voted leave to "kick out Cameron" does that make their vote less valid? It's a subsidiary of the "look at the thinks voting to leave" argument and an extension of the "there should never have been a referendum" rationale.

The fact is that any analysis of why individuals decided to leave the European Union is pure speculation in the same way that any analysis of why people voted to remain within the European Union is pure speculation. There may be many people who voted to remain because they genuinely want to see a United States of Europe or because they genuinely believed that they would not be able to travel abroad or have free roaming charges.

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 22:29 - Oct 19 with 390 viewsCatullus

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 15:14 - Oct 19 by westwalesed

Whilst I fully understand the implication of what you're saying - and please correct me if I'm wrong - but because people voted leave to "kick out Cameron" does that make their vote less valid? It's a subsidiary of the "look at the thinks voting to leave" argument and an extension of the "there should never have been a referendum" rationale.

The fact is that any analysis of why individuals decided to leave the European Union is pure speculation in the same way that any analysis of why people voted to remain within the European Union is pure speculation. There may be many people who voted to remain because they genuinely want to see a United States of Europe or because they genuinely believed that they would not be able to travel abroad or have free roaming charges.


That second paragraph is interesting, to suggest someone may have had stupid reasons for voting remain....

This is where some people don't seem to understand democracy. A democratic choice doesn't have to be right or even sensible but if a majority choose something then you go with it or democracy fails.
The first time you allow democracy to be subverted because "it was obviously a bad choice" is when we might as well all not bother voting and just let the government do as they please ad infinitum.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 23:04 - Oct 19 with 379 viewslonglostjack

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 22:29 - Oct 19 by Catullus

That second paragraph is interesting, to suggest someone may have had stupid reasons for voting remain....

This is where some people don't seem to understand democracy. A democratic choice doesn't have to be right or even sensible but if a majority choose something then you go with it or democracy fails.
The first time you allow democracy to be subverted because "it was obviously a bad choice" is when we might as well all not bother voting and just let the government do as they please ad infinitum.


No. We have a parliamentary democracy that has worked for centuries and is the envy of the world. Referendums just don’t work. Snapshot of the feeling at the time.
[Post edited 19 Oct 23:09]

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 09:04 - Oct 20 with 325 viewsCatullus

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 23:04 - Oct 19 by longlostjack

No. We have a parliamentary democracy that has worked for centuries and is the envy of the world. Referendums just don’t work. Snapshot of the feeling at the time.
[Post edited 19 Oct 23:09]


So the referendum to join the EU was wrong too? What about General elections? What about when Parliament (well the MP's in it) vote directly against what they know to be the feelings of their constituents?
Our parliamentary democracy has been broken for a long while. Whips force MP's to vote a certain way and those MP's are too weak to stand firm. Other MP's deride public opinions even when it seems obvious what the majority want. So many MP's vote out of self interest too.
I can't say our Parliament is the envy of the world either. I'm not sure Americans, Germans or the French think our way is better and certainly several Muslim states wouldn't agree, we have women and homosexuals in there!
As far as it goes any general election is only a snapshot of feelings at the time. We (the UK) vote Tories in then change our minds, change them back, back and fore, back and fore. It all depends on the economy, jobs, how rich we feel, what the feelings at the time are.
The referendum though, well it's older people who mainly voted leave, I can argue that their feelings are built up over decades of having lived it and they decided (over 40 years of experience) that leaving is a better idea. Somebody not yet 25 hasn't lived the changes, doesn't know the difference, it's a valid argument.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 17:44 - Oct 20 with 277 viewsbluey_the_blue

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 09:04 - Oct 20 by Catullus

So the referendum to join the EU was wrong too? What about General elections? What about when Parliament (well the MP's in it) vote directly against what they know to be the feelings of their constituents?
Our parliamentary democracy has been broken for a long while. Whips force MP's to vote a certain way and those MP's are too weak to stand firm. Other MP's deride public opinions even when it seems obvious what the majority want. So many MP's vote out of self interest too.
I can't say our Parliament is the envy of the world either. I'm not sure Americans, Germans or the French think our way is better and certainly several Muslim states wouldn't agree, we have women and homosexuals in there!
As far as it goes any general election is only a snapshot of feelings at the time. We (the UK) vote Tories in then change our minds, change them back, back and fore, back and fore. It all depends on the economy, jobs, how rich we feel, what the feelings at the time are.
The referendum though, well it's older people who mainly voted leave, I can argue that their feelings are built up over decades of having lived it and they decided (over 40 years of experience) that leaving is a better idea. Somebody not yet 25 hasn't lived the changes, doesn't know the difference, it's a valid argument.


We didn't have a referendum to join the EU...
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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:06 - Oct 20 with 271 viewsCatullus

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 17:44 - Oct 20 by bluey_the_blue

We didn't have a referendum to join the EU...


As it turned out, yes we did. They called it the EEC but we now know they lied about the future intentions of that "trading bloc"

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:15 - Oct 20 with 269 viewsbluey_the_blue

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:06 - Oct 20 by Catullus

As it turned out, yes we did. They called it the EEC but we now know they lied about the future intentions of that "trading bloc"


No, we had no referendum for EU.

As you correctly say, there was one for "common market". EU and "common market" two separate beasts.

There was a referendum for "common market", never one for "European Union" which with hindsight was a mistake. The public were never asked about their feelings on closer integration, mainstream parties all in agreement it must be a good thing; this caused the likes of UKIP to emerge...
[Post edited 20 Oct 18:32]
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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:15 - Oct 20 with 269 viewsexiledclaseboy

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:06 - Oct 20 by Catullus

As it turned out, yes we did. They called it the EEC but we now know they lied about the future intentions of that "trading bloc"


We didn’t have a referendum to join the EEC either.

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:27 - Oct 20 with 262 viewsCatullus

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:15 - Oct 20 by exiledclaseboy

We didn’t have a referendum to join the EEC either.


We were Swansea Town, now we are Swansea City, are we two seperate beasts? It's the same thing really, the European trading bloc changed over the years from waht we voted to join into what it is today, argue over semantics all you like but even the BBC considers the 1975 version and todays version the same thing by a different name.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36367246

"Britain voted by a margin of two-to-one to stay in the European Economic Community, as the EU was then known, in a 1975 referendum. How many of the things the defeated Out campaign were warning about have come true?"

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:29 - Oct 20 with 257 viewsLoyal

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:15 - Oct 20 by bluey_the_blue

No, we had no referendum for EU.

As you correctly say, there was one for "common market". EU and "common market" two separate beasts.

There was a referendum for "common market", never one for "European Union" which with hindsight was a mistake. The public were never asked about their feelings on closer integration, mainstream parties all in agreement it must be a good thing; this caused the likes of UKIP to emerge...
[Post edited 20 Oct 18:32]


And when any voting took place there were no more than 7 countries in the union.
Not countries that nobody had ever heard of until they were all invited en masse over the last 25 years. Had that been the case nobody in their right mind would have voted to join back in the 70's.

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:31 - Oct 20 with 257 viewsexiledclaseboy

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:27 - Oct 20 by Catullus

We were Swansea Town, now we are Swansea City, are we two seperate beasts? It's the same thing really, the European trading bloc changed over the years from waht we voted to join into what it is today, argue over semantics all you like but even the BBC considers the 1975 version and todays version the same thing by a different name.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36367246

"Britain voted by a margin of two-to-one to stay in the European Economic Community, as the EU was then known, in a 1975 referendum. How many of the things the defeated Out campaign were warning about have come true?"


So as I said. We didn’t have a referendum to join the EEC. We had a referendum on whether to stay in the EEC a few years later. It’s right there in the link you posted and even in the paragraph you quoted.

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:38 - Oct 20 with 249 viewsCatullus

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:31 - Oct 20 by exiledclaseboy

So as I said. We didn’t have a referendum to join the EEC. We had a referendum on whether to stay in the EEC a few years later. It’s right there in the link you posted and even in the paragraph you quoted.


Because that is really the most important thing? It's like you going on about it not being the WAG, does it matter when the majority of people recognise it by that name.

If I asked a 17-25 year old if we were right to join the Common market or EEC, how many of them would know what I was on about? They all know it as the EU. So I made a small mistake, it's not important in the vast scheme of things. From now on I shall try to be more accurate so as to avoid the pedantry.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:53 - Oct 20 with 244 viewsexiledclaseboy

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:38 - Oct 20 by Catullus

Because that is really the most important thing? It's like you going on about it not being the WAG, does it matter when the majority of people recognise it by that name.

If I asked a 17-25 year old if we were right to join the Common market or EEC, how many of them would know what I was on about? They all know it as the EU. So I made a small mistake, it's not important in the vast scheme of things. From now on I shall try to be more accurate so as to avoid the pedantry.


If you would, thanks. It’ll save me some time. You’re still not getting it by the way. We didn’t have a referendum to join the EU, EEC, common market or any previous incarnations of it.
[Post edited 20 Oct 19:01]

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 19:11 - Oct 20 with 235 viewsHighjack

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 18:53 - Oct 20 by exiledclaseboy

If you would, thanks. It’ll save me some time. You’re still not getting it by the way. We didn’t have a referendum to join the EU, EEC, common market or any previous incarnations of it.
[Post edited 20 Oct 19:01]


Indeed, which probably goes a long way to explaining why so many people don’t want to be part of it.

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 02:40 - Oct 25 with 138 viewsLord_Bony

UK nationals may need to buy visas to enter the EU after Brexit, if that is what the European Commission proposes next month.

Means we ll have to pay €60 each, fill in a three-page form, and wait up to six weeks before we can get permission to enter the EU's so-called 'Schengen' travel area. Would hit Ryanair and the other travel companies hard I would imagine.

Presumably, they d have to do the same to enter the U.k?

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French Guyana Border - NI Border on 06:34 - Oct 25 with 111 viewsPawelAbbott

French Guyana Border - NI Border on 02:40 - Oct 25 by Lord_Bony

UK nationals may need to buy visas to enter the EU after Brexit, if that is what the European Commission proposes next month.

Means we ll have to pay €60 each, fill in a three-page form, and wait up to six weeks before we can get permission to enter the EU's so-called 'Schengen' travel area. Would hit Ryanair and the other travel companies hard I would imagine.

Presumably, they d have to do the same to enter the U.k?


I’m anti-Brexit, but even I can see that is never going to happen.
Adding £240 on to the cost of a family holiday to Spain from the U.K. would kill the Spanish tourist industry. Along with those of most other European holiday destinations.
They aren’t that stupid.
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