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Rioting in France 20:39 - Apr 7 with 4344 viewsFlashberryjack

There's been a lot footage of rioting on the streets of Paris on social media, but very little is shown on our main news programmes.

Is all this fake news or is it being intentionally hidden from the British public?
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Rioting in France on 13:44 - Apr 9 with 850 viewschad

Rioting in France on 20:47 - Apr 8 by londonlisa2001

You are aware, I assume, that we already have a military alliance with both France and Germany? And Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Poland, etc etc).

The only point being made (leading to screeching from brexiteers) is that we should not be so dependent on the US. Which given the attitude of the present incumbent of the White House is pretty sensible really.

Or are you worried that the EU military alliance (note, all defence is at national level not at EU level) will not involve Turkey? Brexiteers bloody love Turkey after all,..


We have indeed long had alliances. However this certainly seems to go beyond that in an environment of a push for more European Integration.

In relation to the new Franco German treaty (which also includes deepening economic and language integration) Mrs Merkel said Germany wants to

"make our contribution to the emergence of a European army."

"We are committed to developing a common military culture, a common defence industry and a common line on arms exports,"

Tusk has expressed concerns it should work for integration not against it. This Franco German Axis is certainly not welcomed by all in the EU, Central and Eastern European states already refused to accept German and French leadership on migration. Much opposition to an EU Army has also been expressed across Europe in opinion polls.

There has indeed been a lot of screeching going on, along with trite stereotypes and abuse. I could say which side I think has been most responsible for that, but I don’t think such emotive language helps, especially when a lot of fair minded people inhabit the middle ground.

And I am not particularly having a go at you Lisa, I have been interested to see some of the opinions and links you have posted. I think we can agree the implementation of this has been a major cock up.
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Rioting in France on 14:27 - Apr 9 with 815 viewsHighjack

What does a “common line on arms exports” entail exactly? Who are we going to sell them to? Isn’t the world already awash with tools of slaughter?

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Poll: The official planetswans European election poll. Your vote goes to?

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Rioting in France on 17:52 - Apr 9 with 745 viewsLuther27

Rioting in France on 01:04 - Apr 9 by DJack

It may be better if Europe didn't subsidise American wars don't you think?


My point was a referral to NATO contribution. If EU countries can't abide by the 2% GDP rule then how is a European army to be funded?
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Rioting in France on 17:56 - Apr 9 with 743 viewsLuther27

Rioting in France on 11:18 - Apr 9 by Highjack

His gripe is that other countries aren’t spending enough money on American guns, tanks, bombs and other methods of destroying human life.


He's pssd off that countries like France and Germany over the years haven't paid their dues. We were bullied into it by them to maintain our payments.
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Rioting in France on 18:25 - Apr 9 with 734 viewslondonlisa2001

Rioting in France on 13:44 - Apr 9 by chad

We have indeed long had alliances. However this certainly seems to go beyond that in an environment of a push for more European Integration.

In relation to the new Franco German treaty (which also includes deepening economic and language integration) Mrs Merkel said Germany wants to

"make our contribution to the emergence of a European army."

"We are committed to developing a common military culture, a common defence industry and a common line on arms exports,"

Tusk has expressed concerns it should work for integration not against it. This Franco German Axis is certainly not welcomed by all in the EU, Central and Eastern European states already refused to accept German and French leadership on migration. Much opposition to an EU Army has also been expressed across Europe in opinion polls.

There has indeed been a lot of screeching going on, along with trite stereotypes and abuse. I could say which side I think has been most responsible for that, but I don’t think such emotive language helps, especially when a lot of fair minded people inhabit the middle ground.

And I am not particularly having a go at you Lisa, I have been interested to see some of the opinions and links you have posted. I think we can agree the implementation of this has been a major cock up.


The implementation certainly has been a complete cock up.

The issue though, is a more fundamental one in many ways.

If we accept as a basic premise the need of the UK to continue to trade with the EU (biggest market and closest market), then there is no version of Brexit which can ultimately work.

That’s at the root of all this.

Any ‘Norway’, ‘Customs Union’, ‘Single Market’ ‘Common Market 2.0’ option, whatever it is, in whatever nuanced variety, by definition leaves us to a greater or lesser degree tied to the rules and regulations of the EU without a say in how those rules and regulations are shaped.

A ‘no deal’ Brexit is a myth. As Barnier pointed out yesterday, when we attempt to strike a trade deal with the EU (back to the original premise), we end up where we are at present.

We are where we are because we are in a fundamentally impossible position. And yet no politician (or not enough of them as yet anyway) is prepared to be honest and say that.

As I’ve said before, I’m not a huge fan of some aspects of closer integration. But our current deal is, in many ways, spectacularly good. We have a veto on currency, closer fiscal integration, issues such as a European army (although detailed analysis of the positions of both France and Germany indicate that what they are striving for is very far away from being a single army under single control, but more along the lines of a NATO type agreement that doesn’t rely on the US), we have a rebate (with a veto over any change to that). And many, many more significant powers.

I fail to understand why we would want to damage that, for a future that will be without doubt economically poorer, for spurious ‘advantages’ that will not exist (ability to strike trade deals, for example - no way will they be better than we can negotiate as part of the EU bloc - take Japan’s comments as an example).

I understand that people have concerns about immigration - I just believe Brexit will not change that - it will shift it to other countries. I understand that people don’t like the idea of being part of a political bloc (we can avoid being part of a political union). But in my mind we already are. The UK is simply a political construct - our nations are Wales, England, Scotland, Ireland. It’s the same as the EU if you like, just a few hundred years on. And with a single currency, single army, freedom of movement etc etc. Those things that the arch brexiteers don’t want, and yet celebrate at a UK level.

There are huge problems in this country of inequality and all the things that stem from that - education, health, housing, food poverty etc etc. But when I see Rees Mogg
, Johnson, Cash etc blame the EU and immigration for that, and tell people they’ll be better off after Brexit, I’m reminded of the cartoon which shows a rich banker, poor worker and immigrant and 10 loaves of bread, the banker takes 9 and tells the poor worker that the immigrant will steal the tenth from him. The rich want Brexit as it removes regulation - lower pay, cheaper immigration, harder to enforce a more stringent tax regime. And they are conning those that are suffering by pretending it’s all the fault of the EU - ‘the elites’ as the Old Etonian class laughably describe it.

The whole thing is an absolute disgrace.
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Rioting in France on 21:49 - Apr 9 with 693 viewsexiledclaseboy

Rioting in France on 13:24 - Apr 9 by Flashberryjack

Sorry! I thought the HoC was parliament
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47562995


Yeah after the government negotiated and finalised its withdrawal deal. All the way through those negotiations no deal was “on the table”. Parliament only intervened when it became clear that no deal was a real possibility thanks to the Tories’ incompetence and intransigence. The deal had already been agreed when that happened. It also wasn’t binding on the government as it was at pains to point out at the time.

Poll: Who will you vote for on 8 June?

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Rioting in France on 23:00 - Apr 9 with 659 viewsLuther27

Rioting in France on 18:25 - Apr 9 by londonlisa2001

The implementation certainly has been a complete cock up.

The issue though, is a more fundamental one in many ways.

If we accept as a basic premise the need of the UK to continue to trade with the EU (biggest market and closest market), then there is no version of Brexit which can ultimately work.

That’s at the root of all this.

Any ‘Norway’, ‘Customs Union’, ‘Single Market’ ‘Common Market 2.0’ option, whatever it is, in whatever nuanced variety, by definition leaves us to a greater or lesser degree tied to the rules and regulations of the EU without a say in how those rules and regulations are shaped.

A ‘no deal’ Brexit is a myth. As Barnier pointed out yesterday, when we attempt to strike a trade deal with the EU (back to the original premise), we end up where we are at present.

We are where we are because we are in a fundamentally impossible position. And yet no politician (or not enough of them as yet anyway) is prepared to be honest and say that.

As I’ve said before, I’m not a huge fan of some aspects of closer integration. But our current deal is, in many ways, spectacularly good. We have a veto on currency, closer fiscal integration, issues such as a European army (although detailed analysis of the positions of both France and Germany indicate that what they are striving for is very far away from being a single army under single control, but more along the lines of a NATO type agreement that doesn’t rely on the US), we have a rebate (with a veto over any change to that). And many, many more significant powers.

I fail to understand why we would want to damage that, for a future that will be without doubt economically poorer, for spurious ‘advantages’ that will not exist (ability to strike trade deals, for example - no way will they be better than we can negotiate as part of the EU bloc - take Japan’s comments as an example).

I understand that people have concerns about immigration - I just believe Brexit will not change that - it will shift it to other countries. I understand that people don’t like the idea of being part of a political bloc (we can avoid being part of a political union). But in my mind we already are. The UK is simply a political construct - our nations are Wales, England, Scotland, Ireland. It’s the same as the EU if you like, just a few hundred years on. And with a single currency, single army, freedom of movement etc etc. Those things that the arch brexiteers don’t want, and yet celebrate at a UK level.

There are huge problems in this country of inequality and all the things that stem from that - education, health, housing, food poverty etc etc. But when I see Rees Mogg
, Johnson, Cash etc blame the EU and immigration for that, and tell people they’ll be better off after Brexit, I’m reminded of the cartoon which shows a rich banker, poor worker and immigrant and 10 loaves of bread, the banker takes 9 and tells the poor worker that the immigrant will steal the tenth from him. The rich want Brexit as it removes regulation - lower pay, cheaper immigration, harder to enforce a more stringent tax regime. And they are conning those that are suffering by pretending it’s all the fault of the EU - ‘the elites’ as the Old Etonian class laughably describe it.

The whole thing is an absolute disgrace.


It's not often I agree with your views, and it would be spiteful to pick holes in some of your statements. I voted remain, but I have been absolutely appalled at the media bias and uprising labelling people who voted leave as uneducated idiots who should have the vote taken from them. This view is regularly spouted by posters on here.

However I believe the vote reflects the political view of EU membership since day one and this is due to our political and chattering classes not embracing EU membership. Instead of being proud of our veto, our belligerence regarding full integration...and by that I mean adopting the euro and aligning to the freedom of movement along with common taxes and benefits, we should be driving towards these goals.

Where are we now? A nation divided. Our political rulers shown up for what they truly are...incompetent self centred despots. We are stuck in a limbo created by people who have been found out and have destroyed the unity of this country for many a year to come.

Rant over....where's my whisky?
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Rioting in France on 23:39 - Apr 9 with 640 viewsFireboy2

Rioting in France on 18:25 - Apr 9 by londonlisa2001

The implementation certainly has been a complete cock up.

The issue though, is a more fundamental one in many ways.

If we accept as a basic premise the need of the UK to continue to trade with the EU (biggest market and closest market), then there is no version of Brexit which can ultimately work.

That’s at the root of all this.

Any ‘Norway’, ‘Customs Union’, ‘Single Market’ ‘Common Market 2.0’ option, whatever it is, in whatever nuanced variety, by definition leaves us to a greater or lesser degree tied to the rules and regulations of the EU without a say in how those rules and regulations are shaped.

A ‘no deal’ Brexit is a myth. As Barnier pointed out yesterday, when we attempt to strike a trade deal with the EU (back to the original premise), we end up where we are at present.

We are where we are because we are in a fundamentally impossible position. And yet no politician (or not enough of them as yet anyway) is prepared to be honest and say that.

As I’ve said before, I’m not a huge fan of some aspects of closer integration. But our current deal is, in many ways, spectacularly good. We have a veto on currency, closer fiscal integration, issues such as a European army (although detailed analysis of the positions of both France and Germany indicate that what they are striving for is very far away from being a single army under single control, but more along the lines of a NATO type agreement that doesn’t rely on the US), we have a rebate (with a veto over any change to that). And many, many more significant powers.

I fail to understand why we would want to damage that, for a future that will be without doubt economically poorer, for spurious ‘advantages’ that will not exist (ability to strike trade deals, for example - no way will they be better than we can negotiate as part of the EU bloc - take Japan’s comments as an example).

I understand that people have concerns about immigration - I just believe Brexit will not change that - it will shift it to other countries. I understand that people don’t like the idea of being part of a political bloc (we can avoid being part of a political union). But in my mind we already are. The UK is simply a political construct - our nations are Wales, England, Scotland, Ireland. It’s the same as the EU if you like, just a few hundred years on. And with a single currency, single army, freedom of movement etc etc. Those things that the arch brexiteers don’t want, and yet celebrate at a UK level.

There are huge problems in this country of inequality and all the things that stem from that - education, health, housing, food poverty etc etc. But when I see Rees Mogg
, Johnson, Cash etc blame the EU and immigration for that, and tell people they’ll be better off after Brexit, I’m reminded of the cartoon which shows a rich banker, poor worker and immigrant and 10 loaves of bread, the banker takes 9 and tells the poor worker that the immigrant will steal the tenth from him. The rich want Brexit as it removes regulation - lower pay, cheaper immigration, harder to enforce a more stringent tax regime. And they are conning those that are suffering by pretending it’s all the fault of the EU - ‘the elites’ as the Old Etonian class laughably describe it.

The whole thing is an absolute disgrace.


Your last paragraph was ultimately why i voted to remain,

Rhys Mogg and his ilk makes me sick to the stomach, they claim to want us out for the good of the country but thats so far far from the truth, RM only wants to make even more money from his company somerset captial, he doesnt give a flying fvck about anyone apart from his kind.

Poll: Who is brexithomas17?

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Rioting in France on 00:11 - Apr 10 with 622 viewsDJack

Rioting in France on 17:52 - Apr 9 by Luther27

My point was a referral to NATO contribution. If EU countries can't abide by the 2% GDP rule then how is a European army to be funded?


So was mine. Europe is fead up getting involved with American adventures and then having to subsidise them.

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

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Rioting in France on 11:41 - Apr 10 with 570 viewslondonlisa2001

Rioting in France on 23:00 - Apr 9 by Luther27

It's not often I agree with your views, and it would be spiteful to pick holes in some of your statements. I voted remain, but I have been absolutely appalled at the media bias and uprising labelling people who voted leave as uneducated idiots who should have the vote taken from them. This view is regularly spouted by posters on here.

However I believe the vote reflects the political view of EU membership since day one and this is due to our political and chattering classes not embracing EU membership. Instead of being proud of our veto, our belligerence regarding full integration...and by that I mean adopting the euro and aligning to the freedom of movement along with common taxes and benefits, we should be driving towards these goals.

Where are we now? A nation divided. Our political rulers shown up for what they truly are...incompetent self centred despots. We are stuck in a limbo created by people who have been found out and have destroyed the unity of this country for many a year to come.

Rant over....where's my whisky?


“due to our political and chattering classes not embracing EU membership.”

Couldn’t agree more. We have taken the whole issue far too lightly in this country, (all of us, leavers and remainers) resulting in streams of UKIP MEPs that have taken the p*ss with the same relish as they’ve taken their EU pay-packets and pension rights.

I for one, am taking the forthcoming EU elections far more seriously on their own merit, rather than seeing them as an extension of local and national politics.
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Rioting in France on 12:36 - Apr 10 with 551 viewsLohengrin

Rioting in France on 11:41 - Apr 10 by londonlisa2001

“due to our political and chattering classes not embracing EU membership.”

Couldn’t agree more. We have taken the whole issue far too lightly in this country, (all of us, leavers and remainers) resulting in streams of UKIP MEPs that have taken the p*ss with the same relish as they’ve taken their EU pay-packets and pension rights.

I for one, am taking the forthcoming EU elections far more seriously on their own merit, rather than seeing them as an extension of local and national politics.


Big turn out then you reckon, Lis?

An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.

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Rioting in France on 19:18 - Apr 10 with 515 viewslondonlisa2001

Rioting in France on 12:36 - Apr 10 by Lohengrin

Big turn out then you reckon, Lis?


Given how engaged everyone should be the turnout should be relatively high.

However, the reality is those who are currently talking about ‘showing them a thing or two’ and ‘they won’t believe the backlash’ probably won’t bother. Let’s be honest.

I will vote. As I have in every single election at every level since I was 18. I would not dare to do otherwise. The words of both of my grandmothers telling me ‘women died so you could vote’ will forever ring in my ears, and time and their passing, does nothing to change that. To not vote would be to disrespect their memory.
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Rioting in France on 11:20 - Apr 12 with 392 viewsHighjack

It will be interesting to see if/when we have to hold Euro elections what stance the various parties will take. Presumably they’ll have to campaign on some sort of manifesto even if the European Parliament is about as impotent as an elderly drunken panda.

It’ll be cards on the table time.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Poll: The official planetswans European election poll. Your vote goes to?

0
Rioting in France on 11:29 - Apr 12 with 387 viewsBatterseajack

Rioting in France on 11:20 - Apr 12 by Highjack

It will be interesting to see if/when we have to hold Euro elections what stance the various parties will take. Presumably they’ll have to campaign on some sort of manifesto even if the European Parliament is about as impotent as an elderly drunken panda.

It’ll be cards on the table time.


So does the EU have this big power over us and controls our laws, or is it as impotent as an elderly drunk panda?
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Rioting in France on 11:47 - Apr 12 with 378 viewsHighjack

Rioting in France on 11:29 - Apr 12 by Batterseajack

So does the EU have this big power over us and controls our laws, or is it as impotent as an elderly drunk panda?


The parliament is the big floppy panda.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Poll: The official planetswans European election poll. Your vote goes to?

0
Rioting in France on 12:41 - Apr 12 with 349 viewsBatterseajack

Rioting in France on 11:47 - Apr 12 by Highjack

The parliament is the big floppy panda.


So who's the virile stallion stud in your analogy?
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Rioting in France on 13:09 - Apr 12 with 340 viewsHighjack

Rioting in France on 12:41 - Apr 12 by Batterseajack

So who's the virile stallion stud in your analogy?


Well that would be me.


The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Poll: The official planetswans European election poll. Your vote goes to?

0
Rioting in France on 00:25 - Apr 15 with 276 viewsgwyn_gaseg

Rioting in France on 12:25 - Apr 8 by londonlisa2001

The analysis is not forecasts, it’s what’s happened.

Every serious economic assessment is showing the same - the GS analysis is actually more conservative than some.

But the reality is that brexiteers dismiss any evidence that the economic impact is pretty close to that forecast pre referendum (actually a bit worse) although timing has been different, largely due to huge quantitative easing measures taken out by BOE to prevent (or delay) what they were forecasting. The negative effects are simply being ignored with people shoving their fingers in their ears while singing la la la.

It’s summed up by that fruit farmer on tonight’s Dispatches programme who voted Brexit and now realises he can’t get anyone to pick his fruit as the Eastern Europeans that have always done it are no longer here, and he’s going to lose everything. Laughable.


The Europeans have not always done it. Who was picking the the fruit and veg in the 90's because it was not in the majority, the Europeans, but I suppose as you have never done it never actually experienced it you have to believe what you have read the papers.
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Rioting in France on 15:55 - Apr 15 with 186 viewslondonlisa2001

Rioting in France on 00:25 - Apr 15 by gwyn_gaseg

The Europeans have not always done it. Who was picking the the fruit and veg in the 90's because it was not in the majority, the Europeans, but I suppose as you have never done it never actually experienced it you have to believe what you have read the papers.


Given that the bloke in question needs his fruit picking this summer rather than in the 1990s it’s somewhat irrelevant who was doing it then isn’t it.

I can tell you who was picking veg in the 1980s though as I did it myself on the spuds and swedes in Gower. As did loads of students. You’d be lucky to find students in enough numbers to do it these days though. Which is why they now use Eastern Europeans.

It’s funny that people make such assumptions. Makes you look like a prat to be honest.
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Rioting in France on 16:12 - Apr 15 with 179 viewstrinityann

Rioting in France on 15:55 - Apr 15 by londonlisa2001

Given that the bloke in question needs his fruit picking this summer rather than in the 1990s it’s somewhat irrelevant who was doing it then isn’t it.

I can tell you who was picking veg in the 1980s though as I did it myself on the spuds and swedes in Gower. As did loads of students. You’d be lucky to find students in enough numbers to do it these days though. Which is why they now use Eastern Europeans.

It’s funny that people make such assumptions. Makes you look like a prat to be honest.


Let the markets decide, if you can't get workers to do the job, what do you do? Increase the pay.
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Rioting in France on 16:29 - Apr 15 with 165 viewslondonlisa2001

Rioting in France on 16:12 - Apr 15 by trinityann

Let the markets decide, if you can't get workers to do the job, what do you do? Increase the pay.


But the issue is that not enough people here will do it. The bloke in the Dispatches programme was told that they simply couldn’t find people to do it for minimum wage other than immigrants.

So you increase the pay to the point where it’s uneconomical to pick the fruit.

And the reason for that is that people won’t pay over a certain amount in the supermarkets. We’ve become too used to cheap food.

As I’ve said on many occasions, the issue with globalisation is that people want the benefits of it (cheap stuff) but don’t want the downsides (cheap labour). If you don’t want the second, give up the first. Which is how it was when we didn’t have such a global economy - when I was a kid for example. But neither did we have anywhere approaching as much stuff either.

People who think we can stop global forces without massively cutting back on our standards of living are mistaken. We have overly cheap food, overly cheap clothing, overly cheap travel, white goods, electronics etc etc. Give that up and then we can talk.
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Rioting in France on 16:30 - Apr 15 with 164 viewsBatterseajack

Rioting in France on 16:12 - Apr 15 by trinityann

Let the markets decide, if you can't get workers to do the job, what do you do? Increase the pay.


Will you pay more than the market price for British fruit and veg?
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Rioting in France on 16:33 - Apr 15 with 162 viewslondonlisa2001

Rioting in France on 16:30 - Apr 15 by Batterseajack

Will you pay more than the market price for British fruit and veg?


No. They’ll buy it from Peru.

That’s the problem.

It’s like people saying ‘we want to save the high street’ and buying from Amazon because it’s 30% less.
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Rioting in France on 16:36 - Apr 15 with 160 viewsBatterseajack

Rioting in France on 16:33 - Apr 15 by londonlisa2001

No. They’ll buy it from Peru.

That’s the problem.

It’s like people saying ‘we want to save the high street’ and buying from Amazon because it’s 30% less.


They'll be moaning in 5 years time that Britain doesn't farm any more in the same way they moan now that we don't all work in factories producing stuff.
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Rioting in France on 17:17 - Apr 15 with 151 viewstrinityann

Rioting in France on 16:30 - Apr 15 by Batterseajack

Will you pay more than the market price for British fruit and veg?


Yes, I would pay good money for good nutrition or at least go back to growing our own food. We waste a lot of money buying crap nutrition.
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