Forum | One for Keith and Mods by onehunglow

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One for Keith and Mods on 13:44 - Sep 12 with 1080 views

onehunglow

Russ is a novice and has no right to tell us to expect pain.
If he were a proven man of success then we could accept that especially if things are that bad.

I don’t things are that bad ,player wise so I really do not see why we should risk all because Russy says so.

Poll:

Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City

-1

One for Keith and Mods on 17:52 - Sep 12 with 987 views

Evs

One for Keith and Mods on 13:19 - Sep 12 by Dr_Parnassus

History tells us what is fair to expect.

So if it hasn’t been a requirement before, in far more adverse circumstances, then why is it suddenly a requirement now?

It doesn’t make much logical sense.

This isn’t a manager who has bags of experience you can bet your club on. This is a guy from MK Dons who took them to 13th in the league.

When that is the case there needs to be continuous evidence that the methods that are being implemented is working. Again, we have spent more in this season than any other football league season in our history.

5 points from 6 games is not “acceptable results”. That’s the form that gets 38 points over the course of the season. If we look at last seasons table, that would put us bottom of the table by 7 points.

Yep, RM is a young, inexperienced manager. You might need "continuous evidence" (whatever form that might take). I'm more than prepared to bide my time.

You're extrapolating our current points total to determine our final points total. This might make sense to you - it makes no sense to me, however.

One for Keith and Mods on 18:07 - Sep 12 with 963 views

magicdaps10

Think people have to realise that the job Martin has in hand is the hardest job of any manager taken on in the last 15 years or so. Aside from when Flynn came in to save us then you could argue that he has overseen the biggest press on the reset button if the club in 25 years!

I must add that I am not happy to be where we are in the league after 6 games but at the same time it shouldn't be no shock taking everything into consideration since that play off final. Most of us after that final would have said they would be happy with a mid table finish after that final especially knowing what was coming with players leaving and loans departing.

We were never going to replicate the previous 2 years under Cooper whomever was in charge, makes you now realise that those 2 years were wasted chances to really put a challenge in for the top 2! A bit more bravery could have seen a better outcome and we wouldn't be in this situation.

Listen all, we are where we are and the majority including the manager who left in the summer knew that this was going to be a tougher season.

Anyone who says they don't have concerns in some shape or form after the last 3/4 months to where we are now is just in denial or lying but some reactions are just WOW because all that we are seeing was expected by the ones with half a brain.

Poll:

One for Keith and Mods on 18:13 - Sep 12 with 954 views

magicdaps10

One for Keith and Mods on 17:52 - Sep 12 by Evs
Yep, RM is a young, inexperienced manager. You might need "continuous evidence" (whatever form that might take). I'm more than prepared to bide my time. You're extrapolating our current points total to determine our final points total. This might make sense to you - it makes no sense to me, however.

The last part there is correct especially taking into account a new manager with virtually a new team with little to no pre season. It's all a bit naive for sure.

Think it just shows how entitled some fans are to want results straight of the bat, over the years it is proven and we have all seen that some managers have needed time to get the plan in place or/and to rebuild a team.. Think that because we have had continued success for the last 15 years that some see that as the standard and not just that but expect it.

This is a massive reset and results/performances are not going to happen by just the click of the finger.

Poll:

Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City

One for Keith and Mods on 18:56 - Sep 12 with 914 views

Boundy

One for Keith and Mods on 21:22 - Sep 11 by onehunglow

But it's not saying much is it Cat.
At Preston,it was lack of guts.
Today a lack of guile and the excuses will soon begin to wear thin.

We did not look like winning really as Hull were organised and we had not a clue as to how to break it down.

Martin had two weeks free to get us looking like we could break through. We were going backwards and sideways a we were under Cooper.

No need to be sorry;we simply disagree and you do it well.

So by your reckoning unless we put every opposition team to the sword and win by at least 3 goals everything else is a negative , "going back wards" please explain how could you possible think that after watching yesterdays game we've gone backwards , measured against Preston , I'm afraid its blame to see you unwittingly keep contradicting yourself to suit your narrative , you don't like the manager fine , if you've proved right then its kudos to you for having the foresight and wisdom the Club never had . Myself I'm prepared to give him time for his methods to bear fruition , there were signs of that yesterday and as long as its progress than that's fine by me.

"In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master."

One for Keith and Mods on 19:08 - Sep 12 with 886 views

ReslovenSwan1

The Potter season was both a reset and a massive missed opportunity. The club was in flux with a large number of departures. Potter took some time to get his act together. Lovely football but sloppy results 2-3 v Ipswich for example. It probably took 2-3 months before the liberty became a fort. Plenty of away defeats at Rotherham Derby etc,

Potter had the remnant of the Premier leagues season with players in their last season.

Mulder, Olsen, Naughton, Van de Horn, Fer, Narsingh, Ayew, Borja spine of the team. (Bony crocked)

PL reserves Fulton, Roberts, Grimes.

Up and coming players, McBurnie, James, Byers, Baker Richardson, Rodon coming through.

He also had significantly, a budget of £7m which McCauley wasted. At that time he could have picked up real good players not duffers. Players like Ivan Toney, Pukki Dikkie etc.He did not investigate the loan market at all.

In hindsight a missed opportunity. The mis-spent £7m was crucial. This season another reset back to Potter mk 2. This time the new signings are a lot better and a new batch of young players coming through and no players sitting out generous contracts.

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One for Keith and Mods on 19:50 - Sep 12 with 846 views

onehunglow

One for Keith and Mods on 18:56 - Sep 12 by Boundy

By my reckoning you are well off course here.

I don't have a "narrative" .It is simply opinion no more no less.

I stand by every word.

Poll:

Are the owners doing enough for Swansea City

-1

One for Keith and Mods on 20:16 - Sep 12 with 817 views

Boundy

One for Keith and Mods on 19:50 - Sep 12 by onehunglow
By my reckoning you are well off course here. I don't have a "narrative" .It is simply opinion no more no less. I stand by every word.

As do I .

"In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master."

One for Keith and Mods on 21:07 - Sep 12 with 776 views

KeithHaynes

One for Keith and Mods on 19:08 - Sep 12 by ReslovenSwan1

The main problem with the end of that season was Potter leaving, had he stayed I’m certain that second season would have seen us promoted or at least in the play offs. In the play offs under Potter we would have had a more than realistic chance of getting promoted, because under Cooper we all knew he was way short.

	A great believer in taking anything you like to wherever you want to.
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One for Keith and Mods on 22:03 - Sep 12 with 742 views

magicdaps10

One for Keith and Mods on 21:07 - Sep 12 by KeithHaynes
The main problem with the end of that season was Potter leaving, had he stayed I’m certain that second season would have seen us promoted or at least in the play offs. In the play offs under Potter we would have had a more than realistic chance of getting promoted, because under Cooper we all knew he was way short.

Play offs are won by teams who go out to win games not by teams who play not to lose.

That is why Cooper was way short.

Poll:

One for Keith and Mods on 22:28 - Sep 12 with 716 views

One for Keith and Mods on 17:52 - Sep 12 by Evs
Yep, RM is a young, inexperienced manager. You might need "continuous evidence" (whatever form that might take). I'm more than prepared to bide my time. You're extrapolating our current points total to determine our final points total. This might make sense to you - it makes no sense to me, however.

I’m not, I’m showing that this form is unacceptable.

By giving you the points tally at the end of the season, it shows what is good and bad form. You wouldn’t accept being bottom by 7 points so how is form that represents that sort of return, acceptable?

	Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Poll:	Would you swap Ayew for Piroe?

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One for Keith and Mods on 23:03 - Sep 12 with 694 views

Catullus

One for Keith and Mods on 22:28 - Sep 12 by Dr_Parnassus
I’m not, I’m showing that this form is unacceptable. By giving you the points tally at the end of the season, it shows what is good and bad form. You wouldn’t accept being bottom by 7 points so how is form that represents that sort of return, acceptable?

So what you're saying is, we should ignore everything that's happened, ignore that Cooper left, that a new manager with practically a whole new team who needed teaching his ways is no excuse and we should have won more games?

That's hardly a logical or common sense approach, is it?

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One for Keith and Mods on 23:11 - Sep 12 with 690 views

One for Keith and Mods on 23:03 - Sep 12 by Catullus
So what you're saying is, we should ignore everything that's happened, ignore that Cooper left, that a new manager with practically a whole new team who needed teaching his ways is no excuse and we should have won more games? That's hardly a logical or common sense approach, is it?

I’m not sure what you mean by “ignore”, exactly.

And I’m not sure what you mean by the excuses you just gave.

“A manager leaving immediately prior” is the pre requisite for any new manager coming in, that has happened to every single manager in history (apart from the very first one at each club upon inception that is). Why has that suddenly become a reason to not see acceptable results?

Same goes for a “new manager” - all managers are new that just take over. We have just discussed that not in my time watching us (quarter of a century) has a new manager needed months on end before showing respectable results.

All managers have to teach new styles to their team, each manager plays differently. We have had many style changes in our history. Again, nobody has needed months and months to show acceptable results.

Martin has had the added benefit of our largest football league spend in our history (relegation season aside - although it’s close to that).

The “woe is me” stuff really doesn’t wash. It’s currently nowhere near good enough and it really shouldn’t be taking months on end for it to be… that’s absolutely common sense.

[Post edited 12 Sep 2021 23:19]

	Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Poll:	Would you swap Ayew for Piroe?

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One for Keith and Mods on 09:09 - Sep 13 with 581 views

One for Keith and Mods on 08:36 - Sep 12 by Boundy
There was muted booing on the final whistle, and finished as quickly as it started. I wouldn't have thought it would have been heard throughout the rest of the ground ,there was a large round of applause when the Manager strolled over .

OK cool. Thanks for clearing that up. I really hope it wasn't heard by the manage or any of the players.

	.
Poll:	Who are you voting for this year? I'm sure Grimes will be popular. I've gone Oli

One for Keith and Mods on 09:18 - Sep 13 with 577 views

One for Keith and Mods on 11:42 - Sep 12 by Dr_Parnassus
Are you able to tell me any manager in the last 25 years who has needed this long (and months longer again according to some) to change a style and see some results? Why is this suddenly become a thing when it never has been previously?

SO just because the majority of managers (in different circumstances) didn't need much time, that means we should base all future managers on this and not offer them any time?

Each circumstance is different and should be treated as such.

All managers should be given time. If they don't need it because they start off well, then great.

We should not decide our next manager's fate by judging how the last manager did or what he needed.

	.
Poll:	Who are you voting for this year? I'm sure Grimes will be popular. I've gone Oli

One for Keith and Mods on 09:19 - Sep 13 with 575 views

One for Keith and Mods on 12:04 - Sep 12 by Evs
One name immediately springs to mind - Russell Martin at MK Dons.

Alex Ferguson?

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Poll:	Who are you voting for this year? I'm sure Grimes will be popular. I've gone Oli

One for Keith and Mods on 09:23 - Sep 13 with 572 views

One for Keith and Mods on 12:31 - Sep 12 by Dr_Parnassus

Well the myth is that there needs to be months of poor results before we see them.

There doesn’t, history tells us this.

It may take months to perfect a style, but perfection isn’t what some of us are expecting, we can wait for that.

Again, name a single manager in the last quarter of a century for us that has needed months and months to see some acceptable results.

Bob Bradley said he was slowly turning us around too didn’t he?

"may take" months, is not the same as "needs" months.

I don't think anyone has said that for RM to succeed, he needs months of time.
They have simply said that they are willing to give him months if needed.

Performances are licking up immediately. I'm sure results will stat coming very soon.

	.
Poll:	Who are you voting for this year? I'm sure Grimes will be popular. I've gone Oli

One for Keith and Mods on 09:24 - Sep 13 with 572 views

One for Keith and Mods on 09:18 - Sep 13 by jackrmee

I am not talking about the last manager, I am talking about this history of Swansea management.

Why is Martin so special that he gets months and even years before we can expect even acceptable results.

We should base all decisions on common sense, not madness.

	Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Poll:	Would you swap Ayew for Piroe?

One for Keith and Mods on 09:24 - Sep 13 with 572 views

Catullus

One for Keith and Mods on 23:11 - Sep 12 by Dr_Parnassus

[Post edited 12 Sep 2021 23:19]

Lets take that point by point,
I’m not sure what you mean by “ignore”, exactly.

Dou you not undertsand what ignore means, really?

And I’m not sure what you mean by the excuses you just gave.

I didn't give excuses, I stated realites, you say you state reality well tell me what wasn't real about those points?

“A manager leaving immediately prior” is the pre requisite for any new manager coming in, that has happened to every single manager in history (apart from the very first one at each club upon inception that is). Why has that suddenly become a reason to not see acceptable results?
I never said immediately prior so why the quotation marks?

Same goes for a “new manager” - all managers are new that just take over. We have just discussed that not in my time watching us (quarter of a century) has a new manager needed months on end before showing respectable results.
Bob Bradley, but even so it hasn't been months on end, it's barely 2 months so why exaggerate?

All managers have to teach new styles to their team, each manager plays differently. We have had many style changes in our history. Again, nobody has needed months and months to show acceptable results.

Not all managers come in to make the massive change in style we have chosen. At Cardiff, McCarthy plays largely the same way as his predecessor. In previous years we have looked to appoint managers who play the same style because our manager left and we wanted continuity.

Martin has had the added benefit of our largest football league spend in our history (relegation season aside - although it’s close to that).

Largest spend in our history? Up to now we have spent around 3 million, didn't we spend more than that under Potter, close to 87 million wasn't it so more than double what Martin has spent, that's to ignore that several players arrived before Martin did, that's another reality.

The “woe is me” stuff really doesn’t wash. It’s currently nowhere near good enough and it really shouldn’t be taking months on end for it to be… that’s absolutely common sense.

Now this is utter nonsense, it's you who is pushing the "woe is me" line, it's you moaning things aren't good enough, most of the rest of us are being upbeat. it's as if you have some kind of grudge and are determined to be negative about the current situation. It has barely been 2 months so yet again you are being overly negative, you are exaggerating and you are definitely not showing common sense.
The size of the change we have undertaken was never going to be an instant success. How many of our managers in the last 25 years have had such an upheaval with so littel pre season to boot?

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One for Keith and Mods on 09:38 - Sep 13 with 565 views

One for Keith and Mods on 09:24 - Sep 13 by Catullus

I understand what the word ignore means, I don't understand what YOU mean by ignore, because nobody is ignoring the points raised. They are being noted and given explanations as to why they aren't relevant.

Those points are real, but they aren't reality when it comes to stating why it is acceptable we aren't getting an acceptable number of points on the board. If I killed someone and gave an excuse that ''I was bored'', I am afraid as real as that excuse is - it is no excuse at all.

Now let's take your replies one by one.

- You made the point he is a new manager. Well, all managers are new managers when they first arrive, that's the notion of them being new managers. Martin isn't special in that regard, every single manager we have had in our history has been our new manager at one point, and none of them needed months to get acceptable results with a quality squad. So why Martin?

- How is Bob Bradley an example? He was sacked after 85 days. The question posed was who was appointed and needed months on end to se acceptable results. Bob Bradley was sacked for the opposite - we were not seeing acceptable results.

- I am not exaggerating, you have misunderstood the point I very clearly made. The notion is that he needs months on end before we can expect to see acceptable results, some even claim years. Why?

- What do you mean a style change? The majority of this starting 11 is a new team, they aren't changing anything. It is no different to continuing the same style and bringing in 4 new players to the side (which ironically is what we did last season). Hence why it's a fallacy. A club has no memory, he isn't changing the style of the club, he is changing the style of the players that were here last term (That's 4, going by last weekend).

- Regarding the spend, read what I typed again. Largest spend in our FOOTBALL LEAGUE history, relegation year aside. The relegation year was 2018, the year Potter spent 6m. This year we have spent 5m (not sure where you got 3m from).

- Being upbeat is great, but upbeat is a false version of reality. You are advocating for things that is not the norm and pretending as if they are. Who is exaggerating? where? you are talking nonsense.

- The size of the change? There is no big change. His task is to make 4 legacy players play a passing style, the majority of this team is his, he has brought them in with no experience of Cooperball.

It is no different to any manager coming in to any club, playing any sort of a way and implementing that to his new signings. There is no big change. Its a myth.

[Post edited 13 Sep 2021 10:16]

	Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Poll:	Would you swap Ayew for Piroe?

One for Keith and Mods on 10:19 - Sep 13 with 545 views

Evs

One for Keith and Mods on 22:28 - Sep 12 by Dr_Parnassus
I’m not, I’m showing that this form is unacceptable. By giving you the points tally at the end of the season, it shows what is good and bad form. You wouldn’t accept being bottom by 7 points so how is form that represents that sort of return, acceptable?

Ugh. Ok, so fair enough. You've extrapolated our results to date to reach a final points total of 38 to suggest that our form is totally linear and then conclude that looking at last season's table, that would put us "bottom of the table by 7 points". (I'm not sure where the 7 pts comes from, but whatever).

Doing that with Reading, Peterborough and Forest's current form using your method gives them final points totals of 30, 30 and 7. Compared with our 38. So, no, we wouldn't be bottom at all.

I get that you're not happy right now. I am content. We have differing opinions and that's fine. We don't need to keep revisiting this. I might be hysterical by January, of course. Let's wait and see.

In the meantime, there's absolutely no need to throw flimsy stats and inconsistent reasoning at me.

One for Keith and Mods on 10:27 - Sep 13 with 531 views

One for Keith and Mods on 10:19 - Sep 13 by Evs

No, I am not making any predictions at all.

You said results ''have been'' acceptable, not ''will be'' acceptable. I am making no predictions of the future, I am showing you that our results to date are akin to the form that would see us bottom of the table by 7 points.

I am in no way saying this form will continue in that vein, just that the form currently is unacceptable.

I also was clear that the points tally based on last season would have put us bottom by 7, I didn't mention Peterborough this season. Bottom of the table last year had 45 points, that is 7 more than our form would give us (again not saying it will, only demonstrating the sort of form and results we have seen thus far).

Nothing is flimsy, you just clearly haven't understood the point I made. Not for the first time.

[Post edited 13 Sep 2021 10:30]

	Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Poll:	Would you swap Ayew for Piroe?

One for Keith and Mods on 10:39 - Sep 13 with 515 views

onehunglow

One for Keith and Mods on 10:27 - Sep 13 by Dr_Parnassus

[Post edited 13 Sep 2021 10:30]

It is a case of people simply seeing your username and reacting as per Pavlovs Dogs.

Poll:

One for Keith and Mods on 11:30 - Sep 13 with 502 views

Evs

One for Keith and Mods on 10:27 - Sep 13 by Dr_Parnassus

[Post edited 13 Sep 2021 10:30]

45 pts? Who? Anyway, it's not important.

Again, no. You can't just extrapolate one team in isolation. Apply your method to the teams below us, and hey, they're still below us at the end of the season. Their form is worse.

So, to suggest our form is "bottom of the table by 7 points" is just plain wrong. In fact, it's weird, because you obviously fully understand the point I'm making.

One for Keith and Mods on 13:07 - Sep 13 with 462 views