| Sala case proven then 11:58 - Oct 28 with 5313 views | onehunglow |
Now what...
This post has been edited by an administrator |  |
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| Sala case proven then on 20:50 - Nov 12 with 1061 views | Dr_Winston |
I can't see that there are any situations where Cardiff don't have to swallow the £15m fee. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Sala case proven then on 20:55 - Nov 12 with 1051 views | Boundy |
| Sala case proven then on 20:50 - Nov 12 by Dr_Winston |
I can't see that there are any situations where Cardiff don't have to swallow the £15m fee. |
Good , hope it chokes them | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Sala case proven then on 21:25 - Nov 12 with 1022 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Sala case proven then on 20:37 - Nov 12 by bennytheblue |
Like footballers dont travel in planes, cars or helicopters to sign deals etc? Insurance is uh how can I put it….insurance. |
Perhaps the insurance company is arguing that it was a personal flight and not business related so they aren’t liable for it. Perhaps they are arguing that Sala should have taken his own personal travel insurance as it wasn’t a business related flight. Who knows? But there’s no insurance company on the world that would just hand over £15 million+ if it doesn’t have to. Plus Cardiff are insisting that he was never their player anyway so for that reason alone the insurance has an ‘out’. | | | |
| Sala case proven then on 21:30 - Nov 12 with 1014 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Sala case proven then on 15:22 - Oct 28 by Dr_Parnassus |
They are deluded.
This all came from a poster on there called Paul Keevil, who has a mediocre grasp of law yet they cling on his every word because he worked for the club in some legal capacity years ago, but nothing to do with contract law and certainly not french interpretations of vicarious liability.
Vicarious liability is like an employee of an organisation when in uniform and representing the company he/she works for, doing something to cause someone damages. They then hold that company liable as they state that you were representing them in some capacity.
So in order for Cardiff to prove vicarious liability and sue Nantes, they would have to prove Willie McKay was working as an employee of Nantes at the time the flight was arranged, and working in Nantes interests of course.
Willie McKay lost his agents licence and was not a registered agent, he arranged the flight with Sala directly as Cardiff would only pay for a budget ticket from Paris at in inconvenient time.
Willie was not an agent, was not employed by Nantes. His son was acting on behalf of Nantes, Sala and Cardiff up until the deal was signed and complete (which was before the flight was arranged). As soon as that happened his son was only representing Sala and also Cardiff in a sense.
This flight back was to get to training. He had already flown over to sign the papers and hold the shirt up etc
He then flew back to France after the deal was done to pack up his stuff and say goodbyes to family, friends and colleagues. It was a personal trip, not a professional one.
At that point Nantes has absolutely nothing to do with Sala or the McKays, as far as they were concerned he was no longer their player - and they would be right.
An awful incident, but they owe 15m + interest without any shadow of a doubt.
The only person they have a case against is the now guilty Henderson who was the original pilot that have the job away to an under qualified pilot. But there is absolutely no chance he has the cash to be sued.
Hence why they are conjuring this vicarious liability avenue to attack Nantes. Pretty despicable really.
They know the CAS appeal case is essentially a disaster waiting to be confirmed for them. It’s all been about delaying the inevitable and hoping they got promotion in the meantime so they could absorb the hit… which didn’t work out too well.
They are in BIG trouble. [Post edited 28 Oct 2021 15:32]
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This. In spades.
They know they are in trouble too hence them already confirming there will be no money in jan or summer. They also have the hammam case hanging over them.
I do think the Morrison appointment is a good one and they’ll be ok on pitch for this season, but long term they are in trouble. Big time. |  | | |
| Sala case proven then on 22:30 - Nov 12 with 971 views | bennytheblue |
| Sala case proven then on 20:50 - Nov 12 by Dr_Winston |
I can't see that there are any situations where Cardiff don't have to swallow the £15m fee. |
Zzzzzzzzzz.zzzzzzzzzzzz
Man you love to bang that drum. I reckon you have said this 100 times.
Let’s hope we see the scum agent go down aswell. 5 yrs should do it. |  | | |
| Sala case proven then on 22:35 - Nov 12 with 958 views | bennytheblue |
| Sala case proven then on 21:30 - Nov 12 by 34dfgdf54 |
This. In spades.
They know they are in trouble too hence them already confirming there will be no money in jan or summer. They also have the hammam case hanging over them.
I do think the Morrison appointment is a good one and they’ll be ok on pitch for this season, but long term they are in trouble. Big time. |
Really? I’m hearing that Tan is taking one of his wealthy chums on board, in fact someone with more than him. It’s about time. I guess he’s had enough of wasting his own money. Also mackay wasnt allowed to act as an agent, he was banned. That’s why he got his son to act for him. I trust you know who Sala got to arrange the doomed flight yeah? How did he find him then? Because he worked for Nantes. | | | |
| Sala case proven then on 22:40 - Nov 12 with 954 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Sala case proven then on 20:37 - Nov 12 by bennytheblue |
Like footballers dont travel in planes, cars or helicopters to sign deals etc? Insurance is uh how can I put it….insurance. |
You cannot insure a player that isn’t yours.
Cardiff don’t think he is theirs, so there would have been no insurance policy taken out. If they had insurance sorted for him there wouldn’t be all this fuss in the first place, they would claim off the insurance and keep their reputation “somewhat” in tact.
Dalman has said losing the case would be a disaster. If he was insured, why would that be a disaster? I think it’s safe to say he wasn’t.
As I pointed out and others have touched upon, this was a personal flight not a business one. It was a personal trip to say goodbye to his friends and pack some more of his stuff after already signing for his new club. Who arranged the flight in that instance is largely irrelevant.
I’d say largely because while it’s completely irrelevant in the transfer itself (that’s simple, you owe Nantes), it is relevant in the avenue to seek damages. So where you stand now is that you owe £15m + interest + legal costs…. THEN you can sue who has been proven to be to blame for the flight itself, which is Henderson.
But as we all know, Henderson doesn’t have that kind of money and will just declare bankruptcy without any shadow of doubt.
So you are snookered… or you can file for bankruptcy too. |  |
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| Sala case proven then on 00:04 - Nov 13 with 931 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Sala case proven then on 22:35 - Nov 12 by bennytheblue |
Really? I’m hearing that Tan is taking one of his wealthy chums on board, in fact someone with more than him. It’s about time. I guess he’s had enough of wasting his own money. Also mackay wasnt allowed to act as an agent, he was banned. That’s why he got his son to act for him. I trust you know who Sala got to arrange the doomed flight yeah? How did he find him then? Because he worked for Nantes. |
Tan can’t be much of a chum if he’s willing to inflict Cardiff city on him. | | | |
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| Sala case proven then on 01:04 - Nov 13 with 908 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Sala case proven then on 22:40 - Nov 12 by Dr_Parnassus |
You cannot insure a player that isn’t yours.
Cardiff don’t think he is theirs, so there would have been no insurance policy taken out. If they had insurance sorted for him there wouldn’t be all this fuss in the first place, they would claim off the insurance and keep their reputation “somewhat” in tact.
Dalman has said losing the case would be a disaster. If he was insured, why would that be a disaster? I think it’s safe to say he wasn’t.
As I pointed out and others have touched upon, this was a personal flight not a business one. It was a personal trip to say goodbye to his friends and pack some more of his stuff after already signing for his new club. Who arranged the flight in that instance is largely irrelevant.
I’d say largely because while it’s completely irrelevant in the transfer itself (that’s simple, you owe Nantes), it is relevant in the avenue to seek damages. So where you stand now is that you owe £15m + interest + legal costs…. THEN you can sue who has been proven to be to blame for the flight itself, which is Henderson.
But as we all know, Henderson doesn’t have that kind of money and will just declare bankruptcy without any shadow of doubt.
So you are snookered… or you can file for bankruptcy too. |
Who paid for the flight? Surely if it was a personal flight the player must have paid for it himself. It will be on his card.
I would have thought that all the registration paperwork would have been done at once. It happens when you join a new employer. It would not be wise to leave a window between formalising a signing days before formalising the insurance. They should start at the exact same time.
The guilty party must also have been insured. People are concerned about uninsured drivers. If a reckless driver is insured its bad news for his insurer. An insured reckless driver's insurance still has to pay the injured party. That is the way the system works. Having a criminal record does not reduce your premiums. |  |
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| Sala case proven then on 01:43 - Nov 13 with 902 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Sala case proven then on 01:04 - Nov 13 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Who paid for the flight? Surely if it was a personal flight the player must have paid for it himself. It will be on his card.
I would have thought that all the registration paperwork would have been done at once. It happens when you join a new employer. It would not be wise to leave a window between formalising a signing days before formalising the insurance. They should start at the exact same time.
The guilty party must also have been insured. People are concerned about uninsured drivers. If a reckless driver is insured its bad news for his insurer. An insured reckless driver's insurance still has to pay the injured party. That is the way the system works. Having a criminal record does not reduce your premiums. |
He asked how much it was and McKay said his dad would take care of it for him. If it was a business trip you wouldn’t be asking “how much will that be”. I’ve been on various business flights and not once has it ever occurred to me that my company would want me to pay.
It was a personal trip to say goodbyes and gather some more of his things.
7:56pm - McKay: "He said he could organise a plane that would go direct to Nantes."
7:56pm - Sala: "How much will it cost?"
7:56pm - McKay: "Nothing. He said if you help me to score goals it's nothing."
7:59pm - Sala: "Hahaha with pleasure." | |
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| Sala case proven then on 11:18 - Nov 13 with 831 views | BillyChong |
| Sala case proven then on 01:04 - Nov 13 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Who paid for the flight? Surely if it was a personal flight the player must have paid for it himself. It will be on his card.
I would have thought that all the registration paperwork would have been done at once. It happens when you join a new employer. It would not be wise to leave a window between formalising a signing days before formalising the insurance. They should start at the exact same time.
The guilty party must also have been insured. People are concerned about uninsured drivers. If a reckless driver is insured its bad news for his insurer. An insured reckless driver's insurance still has to pay the injured party. That is the way the system works. Having a criminal record does not reduce your premiums. |
Insurance companies are no mugs, they won’t pay out if the pilot wasn’t qualified to fly at night | | | |
| Sala case proven then on 11:22 - Nov 13 with 827 views | bennytheblue |
| Sala case proven then on 00:04 - Nov 13 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
Tan can’t be much of a chum if he’s willing to inflict Cardiff city on him. |
Shhh don’t tell anyone | | | |
| Sala case proven then on 11:53 - Nov 13 with 809 views | Catullus |
| Sala case proven then on 22:35 - Nov 12 by bennytheblue |
Really? I’m hearing that Tan is taking one of his wealthy chums on board, in fact someone with more than him. It’s about time. I guess he’s had enough of wasting his own money. Also mackay wasnt allowed to act as an agent, he was banned. That’s why he got his son to act for him. I trust you know who Sala got to arrange the doomed flight yeah? How did he find him then? Because he worked for Nantes. |
Now as a general rule, people who have amassed very large wealth aren't fools. So I do wonder who this even richer chum is?
Is he happy to get involved in a club that has a possible 40 million in court cases that may need paying out, a club losing 3 million a month apparently as well as a club in a quite poor state on the pitch.
If you were in the EPL I could see it, after all the Americans bought us even though we were obviously not in a good place.
However, you are only 3 points outside the relegation zone and that would only be goal difference if not for Derby. Your current debt levels will have the FFP people looking at you soon too.
You can have the richest man in the world buy you but if you break FFP you will still get points deducted.
As it stands you need to cut 3 million per month from your wages bill. How many of the first team is that?
Last thing, unless the person arranging the flight was acting on Nantes behalf there will be no vicarious liability. As the general opinion is Sala was your player, why would Nantes arrange his flight? If Sala legally wasn't your player, no insurance, no argument there surely.
We can argue about it all year but when the court cases are decided, whatever will be, will be. Then you can tell us we are wrong or apologise...or more likely, disappear! | |
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| Sala case proven then on 14:55 - Nov 13 with 741 views | bennytheblue |
| Sala case proven then on 11:53 - Nov 13 by Catullus |
Now as a general rule, people who have amassed very large wealth aren't fools. So I do wonder who this even richer chum is?
Is he happy to get involved in a club that has a possible 40 million in court cases that may need paying out, a club losing 3 million a month apparently as well as a club in a quite poor state on the pitch.
If you were in the EPL I could see it, after all the Americans bought us even though we were obviously not in a good place.
However, you are only 3 points outside the relegation zone and that would only be goal difference if not for Derby. Your current debt levels will have the FFP people looking at you soon too.
You can have the richest man in the world buy you but if you break FFP you will still get points deducted.
As it stands you need to cut 3 million per month from your wages bill. How many of the first team is that?
Last thing, unless the person arranging the flight was acting on Nantes behalf there will be no vicarious liability. As the general opinion is Sala was your player, why would Nantes arrange his flight? If Sala legally wasn't your player, no insurance, no argument there surely.
We can argue about it all year but when the court cases are decided, whatever will be, will be. Then you can tell us we are wrong or apologise...or more likely, disappear! |
There is no way in this planet we are losing 3 million a month, that’s just spin to try and make us grateful for Tan. It was £25 million in wages last season and we cut about 10 big earners out in the summer. It might be a million a month now but that’s it’s, and that Tans doing anyway for employing the wrong managers. He finally got a management decision right this week so we shall see if he’s finally seen the light, they have at u23, u18 and u16 level. | | | |
| Sala case proven then on 15:35 - Nov 13 with 721 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Sala case proven then on 11:18 - Nov 13 by BillyChong |
Insurance companies are no mugs, they won’t pay out if the pilot wasn’t qualified to fly at night |
I am not an insurance expert but such terrible events usually involve some form of miscalculation, bravado, bad luck error. The weather was also bad. It is a combination of events.
While the guilty party may have invalidated his own cover by breaking a number of rules the other parties insurances can still go after his insurer as I understand it. The problems occur when the guilty parties have no insurance as with teenage boy racers.
It is a complex matter and insurances are taken out to avoid firms going bankrupt from these disasters. I am not sure insurance companies spend all their time avoiding payment if they can help it. In high profile incidences it is sometime better PR to pay up. | |
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| Sala case proven then on 15:38 - Nov 13 with 715 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Sala case proven then on 01:43 - Nov 13 by Dr_Parnassus |
He asked how much it was and McKay said his dad would take care of it for him. If it was a business trip you wouldn’t be asking “how much will that be”. I’ve been on various business flights and not once has it ever occurred to me that my company would want me to pay.
It was a personal trip to say goodbyes and gather some more of his things.
7:56pm - McKay: "He said he could organise a plane that would go direct to Nantes."
7:56pm - Sala: "How much will it cost?"
7:56pm - McKay: "Nothing. He said if you help me to score goals it's nothing."
7:59pm - Sala: "Hahaha with pleasure." |
The player pays = personal flight.
The agent pays = business flight.
Thanks for clearing that up. | |
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| Sala case proven then on 18:35 - Nov 13 with 645 views | Catullus |
| Sala case proven then on 15:38 - Nov 13 by ReslovenSwan1 |
The player pays = personal flight.
The agent pays = business flight.
Thanks for clearing that up. |
It is who the agent was representing when he booked the flight that matters. if he was only representing Sala then Cardiff do not have a case against Nantes.
s to your previous post. Insurance companies absolutely do look for any reason why not to pay out. If you invalidate your own policy they won't pay but if there was no policy, there is no company to chase.
Cardiff have been claiming Sala wasn't their player, legally. Therefore they cannot claim any insurance for him. If he is their player and they have insurance they will still have to pay Nantes the 15 million. If he was their player and they had no insurance, they are screwed. The court case will decide. | |
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| Sala case proven then on 20:31 - Nov 13 with 611 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Sala case proven then on 15:38 - Nov 13 by ReslovenSwan1 |
The player pays = personal flight.
The agent pays = business flight.
Thanks for clearing that up. |
You really don't understand what is written do you.
The person that paid was not an agent, not Sala's agent, not Nantes' agent, not Cardiff's agent... nobody's agent.
It was a personal flight because there was no business purpose, it was a personal trip to pick up his things and say goodbye to his friends. That's not business... hence why he offered to pay.
Easy. Thanks for understanding. | |
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| Sala case proven then on 20:33 - Nov 13 with 610 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Sala case proven then on 18:35 - Nov 13 by Catullus |
It is who the agent was representing when he booked the flight that matters. if he was only representing Sala then Cardiff do not have a case against Nantes.
s to your previous post. Insurance companies absolutely do look for any reason why not to pay out. If you invalidate your own policy they won't pay but if there was no policy, there is no company to chase.
Cardiff have been claiming Sala wasn't their player, legally. Therefore they cannot claim any insurance for him. If he is their player and they have insurance they will still have to pay Nantes the 15 million. If he was their player and they had no insurance, they are screwed. The court case will decide. |
He wasn't representing anyone.
Willie McKay didn't have an agents license. The agent was Jack McKay.
He has his McKay's mixed up.
Unfortunately we wont see Callum Best entered into the hall of fame for his Man Utd career either, different people. | |
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| Sala case proven then on 21:26 - Nov 13 with 570 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Sala case proven then on 20:31 - Nov 13 by Dr_Parnassus |
You really don't understand what is written do you.
The person that paid was not an agent, not Sala's agent, not Nantes' agent, not Cardiff's agent... nobody's agent.
It was a personal flight because there was no business purpose, it was a personal trip to pick up his things and say goodbye to his friends. That's not business... hence why he offered to pay.
Easy. Thanks for understanding. |
I understand clearly. The player asked if he had to pay and the official agent told him no. Someone in his organisation would pay the bill. (in this case his father). Again the bill will be clearly listed as being from business account or a personal account. It was not mentioned as a personal gift in the text.
In most job changes there is a business budget for relocation. What you would call "picking up his things". He offered to pay because Cardiff had offered a commercial flight to him. This was an extra. It is unknown if the agent planed to invoice someone for it. | |
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| Sala case proven then on 21:45 - Nov 13 with 552 views | Catullus |
| Sala case proven then on 21:26 - Nov 13 by ReslovenSwan1 |
I understand clearly. The player asked if he had to pay and the official agent told him no. Someone in his organisation would pay the bill. (in this case his father). Again the bill will be clearly listed as being from business account or a personal account. It was not mentioned as a personal gift in the text.
In most job changes there is a business budget for relocation. What you would call "picking up his things". He offered to pay because Cardiff had offered a commercial flight to him. This was an extra. It is unknown if the agent planed to invoice someone for it. |
The agent could only invoice sala himself or Cardiff city as by then Sala was nothing to do with Nantes.
What makes you think most job changes have a relocation budget? Not if you leave for another company unless it's specifically written in or you are at a very high level. Most workers will never see a relocation budget in their lifetimes.
Footballers often just live in rented accommodation when they move, it may be provided by the club as part of their contract. They'll have a house somewhere but they don't sell up every time they move club, in most cases. The Swans used to have several houses in Killay. | |
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| Sala case proven then on 21:51 - Nov 13 with 548 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Sala case proven then on 21:45 - Nov 13 by Catullus |
The agent could only invoice sala himself or Cardiff city as by then Sala was nothing to do with Nantes.
What makes you think most job changes have a relocation budget? Not if you leave for another company unless it's specifically written in or you are at a very high level. Most workers will never see a relocation budget in their lifetimes.
Footballers often just live in rented accommodation when they move, it may be provided by the club as part of their contract. They'll have a house somewhere but they don't sell up every time they move club, in most cases. The Swans used to have several houses in Killay. |
He is correct. I have had two relocation packages in the last 10 years and likely to get another next year.
But relocation packages have nothing to do with the previous employer, they are negotiated with the new one.
Considering Cardiff did not pay for the flight, this could not be part of his relocation package. He arranged it himself with Willie McKay who was representing neither party at the time (firstly because he didn't have a license to and secondly because the transfer was complete).
If the flight was paid for by Cardiff then it could be argued it was part of a relocation package, but they would be arguing against themselves.
Resolven hasn't put the pieces together that an agency is not an employer of a player or club, it is an employee. Relocation packages are not part of their remit and as you say (unless they are employing someone to work for them), if it was a relocation package then that would be getting invoiced to Cardiff and not Nantes.
But it was a personal flight obviously, hence why he was offering to pay. McKay said he would pay for it if he promises to score lots of goals, not because it was part of a pre arranged business transaction or because it was their duty to. [Post edited 13 Nov 2021 22:00]
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| Sala case proven then on 22:00 - Nov 13 with 540 views | Catullus |
| Sala case proven then on 21:51 - Nov 13 by Dr_Parnassus |
He is correct. I have had two relocation packages in the last 10 years and likely to get another next year.
But relocation packages have nothing to do with the previous employer, they are negotiated with the new one.
Considering Cardiff did not pay for the flight, this could not be part of his relocation package. He arranged it himself with Willie McKay who was representing neither party at the time (firstly because he didn't have a license to and secondly because the transfer was complete).
If the flight was paid for by Cardiff then it could be argued it was part of a relocation package, but they would be arguing against themselves.
Resolven hasn't put the pieces together that an agency is not an employer of a player or club, it is an employee. Relocation packages are not part of their remit and as you say (unless they are employing someone to work for them), if it was a relocation package then that would be getting invoiced to Cardiff and not Nantes.
But it was a personal flight obviously, hence why he was offering to pay. McKay said he would pay for it if he promises to score lots of goals, not because it was part of a pre arranged business transaction or because it was their duty to. [Post edited 13 Nov 2021 22:00]
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I'll stand by what I said, most workers will never see a relocation budget.
The rest of it should be obvious. Why would Nantes be paying for Sala's relocation, it would be very strange.
nearly as strange as Cardiff announcing Sala to the world as a Bluebird then, when disaster struck trying to say he wasn't. They knew they'd screwed up badly and are trying to bluff their way out of it. It all seems quite in line with all the bad management that sees them in a real mess on several fronts. | |
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| Sala case proven then on 22:04 - Nov 13 with 537 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Sala case proven then on 22:00 - Nov 13 by Catullus |
I'll stand by what I said, most workers will never see a relocation budget.
The rest of it should be obvious. Why would Nantes be paying for Sala's relocation, it would be very strange.
nearly as strange as Cardiff announcing Sala to the world as a Bluebird then, when disaster struck trying to say he wasn't. They knew they'd screwed up badly and are trying to bluff their way out of it. It all seems quite in line with all the bad management that sees them in a real mess on several fronts. |
I agree with you on all points.
I am just saying relocation packages are fairly common, especially when travelling abroad for work, but it clearly is not the case here as Cardiff did not pay for the flight.
He was not going to work for McKay (either of them) so it cannot be an angle of argument. He was going to work for Cardiff, in fact he was already working for them as a registered player. | |
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