| Whittaker gone 11:50 - Jul 17 with 16087 views | KeithHaynes |
|  |
| |  |
| Whittaker gone on 11:26 - Jul 21 with 883 views | Fireboy2 |
| Whittaker gone on 10:36 - Jul 21 by Dr_Winston |
Your entire argument about him being lazy and/or disruptive seems based on him having a tizzy at Hull once. |
No I had a good idea from the evidence laid down, managers letting him go and opposition fans opinions on him.
I can honestly say when he came back from Plymouth I was hoping that he would get on the pitch more to show Martin and more importantly the fans what he's made of, my mind was made up after that 10 mins he had at Hull. |  | | |
| Whittaker gone on 11:30 - Jul 21 with 874 views | Dr_Winston |
| Whittaker gone on 11:20 - Jul 21 by ItchySphincter |
Agreed, not rocket science.
I don’t necessarily hold it against Cooper if at the time he was considered one for the future, or Duff as he probably had other priorities and moving on Whittaker may have facilitated other moves, but the mismanagement under Martin was something else and is amplified because it is not an isolated incident. Kyle Joseph came to us after a good championship run in a poor Wigan side and didn’t get a look in. Bidwell, shown the door and almost ended up in the PL, whereas Martin considered Lati at Sarinola adequate. See also Ogbeta, Garrick (not sure if the timing of this his one?), Ogbeta, Congrieve, B. Cooper, Dan Lloyd, Patterson, and even Piroe ……
Are they all wrong ‘uns, or were they all mismanaged in different ways during the Russel Martin regime? |
I think it's fairly obvious that if you weren't one of Russy's favourites then he'd cheerfully disregard you, and if you were particularly unlucky one of his mates would leak a story about how disruptive you were or how poor your attitude was. Even a solid pro like Fulton was treated abysmally until circumstances forced a recall. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
| |
| Whittaker gone on 11:30 - Jul 21 with 872 views | Dr_Winston |
| Whittaker gone on 11:26 - Jul 21 by Fireboy2 |
No I had a good idea from the evidence laid down, managers letting him go and opposition fans opinions on him.
I can honestly say when he came back from Plymouth I was hoping that he would get on the pitch more to show Martin and more importantly the fans what he's made of, my mind was made up after that 10 mins he had at Hull. |
"my mind was made up after that 10 mins he had at Hull"
Well, yeah. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
| |
| Whittaker gone on 11:34 - Jul 21 with 861 views | Fireboy2 |
| Whittaker gone on 10:40 - Jul 21 by Dr_Winston |
Not enough minutes on the pitch, and those few minutes he got were almost exclusively out of position.
The one manager he's had in his career who used him extensively in his best position got fantastic performances out of him and couldn't sign him back quick enough, breaking his clubs transfer record to do so. |
What if every player threw a strop because they didn't get to play in their best position?
Cooper and Martin obviously thought that they had better players than whittaker to play in his preferred position, what he should have down is knuckled down and grafted but no he threw his teddies out of the pram.
He got away with it at Plymouth because he was one of their best players so got good gametime and therefore played well.
He should have come back and grafter instead of throwing a strop, he will probably get to play in his preferred position back at Plymouth but he will have to graft off the ball as it won't be as easy as last season, we will then see if either of us are right. | | | |
| Whittaker gone on 11:34 - Jul 21 with 860 views | Whiterockin |
| Whittaker gone on 11:25 - Jul 21 by ItchySphincter |
Maybe, but my initial point was that we may regret not developing him here. Only time will tell. 👍 |
It will be interesting to see the reaction he gets if he plays against us. |  | | |
| Whittaker gone on 11:35 - Jul 21 with 860 views | ItchySphincter |
| Whittaker gone on 11:30 - Jul 21 by Dr_Winston |
I think it's fairly obvious that if you weren't one of Russy's favourites then he'd cheerfully disregard you, and if you were particularly unlucky one of his mates would leak a story about how disruptive you were or how poor your attitude was. Even a solid pro like Fulton was treated abysmally until circumstances forced a recall. |
How did I forget Jay….?
Another good soldier and much higher quality footballer than people give him credit for because narrative repeated becomes accepted. Treated appallingly for months. |  |
| |
| Whittaker gone on 11:35 - Jul 21 with 855 views | jack247 |
| Whittaker gone on 11:20 - Jul 21 by ItchySphincter |
Agreed, not rocket science.
I don’t necessarily hold it against Cooper if at the time he was considered one for the future, or Duff as he probably had other priorities and moving on Whittaker may have facilitated other moves, but the mismanagement under Martin was something else and is amplified because it is not an isolated incident. Kyle Joseph came to us after a good championship run in a poor Wigan side and didn’t get a look in. Bidwell, shown the door and almost ended up in the PL, whereas Martin considered Lati at Sarinola adequate. See also Ogbeta, Garrick (not sure if the timing of this his one?), Ogbeta, Congrieve, B. Cooper, Dan Lloyd, Patterson, and even Piroe ……
Are they all wrong ‘uns, or were they all mismanaged in different ways during the Russel Martin regime? |
Not putting effort in is unforgivable. There’s no disputing that.
I’m not trying to defend Russell Martin, he may well have treated Whittaker terribly. That does not make it ok to drift around like a disinterested passenger. Same goes for Obafemi, regardless of what you think of the manager or the board, you can’t just not turn up because a bid doesn’t get accepted. In fairness, you couldn’t fault his effort on the pitch.
That’s not to say Martin didn’t handle either of them or any of the others you mentioned badly, it just doesn’t justify their actions. |  | | |
| Whittaker gone on 11:37 - Jul 21 with 845 views | Dr_Winston |
| Whittaker gone on 11:34 - Jul 21 by Fireboy2 |
What if every player threw a strop because they didn't get to play in their best position?
Cooper and Martin obviously thought that they had better players than whittaker to play in his preferred position, what he should have down is knuckled down and grafted but no he threw his teddies out of the pram.
He got away with it at Plymouth because he was one of their best players so got good gametime and therefore played well.
He should have come back and grafter instead of throwing a strop, he will probably get to play in his preferred position back at Plymouth but he will have to graft off the ball as it won't be as easy as last season, we will then see if either of us are right. |
Oh FFS..
He did well at Plymouth because the manager used him properly. He didn't do well here because Martin didn't.
If we'd signed Piroe and chucked him on the left wing do you seriously think that he'd have done as well as he did when played centrally? Isn't that the case with every player or just the ones you have an irrational hatred towards? | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Whittaker gone on 11:38 - Jul 21 with 843 views | Fireboy2 |
| Whittaker gone on 11:35 - Jul 21 by jack247 |
Not putting effort in is unforgivable. There’s no disputing that.
I’m not trying to defend Russell Martin, he may well have treated Whittaker terribly. That does not make it ok to drift around like a disinterested passenger. Same goes for Obafemi, regardless of what you think of the manager or the board, you can’t just not turn up because a bid doesn’t get accepted. In fairness, you couldn’t fault his effort on the pitch.
That’s not to say Martin didn’t handle either of them or any of the others you mentioned badly, it just doesn’t justify their actions. |
Exactly, they are professionals, getting paid handsomely, they should be professional in everything they do at the club. | | | |
| Whittaker gone on 11:39 - Jul 21 with 835 views | RichardO |
Quite a few good players unable to fit into a team given the players already there being the managers first choice.
They move on, don't particular wish to see "good" players moving to teams we are in competition with though but only will tell if right descions are made or will players regret their move. | | | |
| Whittaker gone on 11:41 - Jul 21 with 831 views | jack247 |
| Whittaker gone on 11:37 - Jul 21 by Dr_Winston |
Oh FFS..
He did well at Plymouth because the manager used him properly. He didn't do well here because Martin didn't.
If we'd signed Piroe and chucked him on the left wing do you seriously think that he'd have done as well as he did when played centrally? Isn't that the case with every player or just the ones you have an irrational hatred towards? |
That’s not the point though.
It’s pretty much universally agreed that Latibaudiere wasn’t great at wing back. He gets a lot of grief, but the more sensible posters (in my view anyway) cut him a lot of slack because he was clearly playing to orders and giving 100%.
That one’s on Martin. | | | |
| Whittaker gone on 11:48 - Jul 21 with 828 views | Fireboy2 |
| Whittaker gone on 11:37 - Jul 21 by Dr_Winston |
Oh FFS..
He did well at Plymouth because the manager used him properly. He didn't do well here because Martin didn't.
If we'd signed Piroe and chucked him on the left wing do you seriously think that he'd have done as well as he did when played centrally? Isn't that the case with every player or just the ones you have an irrational hatred towards? |
Oh FFS 🤣
He did get used properly at Plymouth because the were in the league below us and had inferior players to us, whereas with us he was inferior to our players so didn't get used.
Do you think if piroe went to a PL side where they had 2/3 great strikers they would play piroe wide? No they would probably send him out on loan to a championship side where he would get gametime, do you see where I am coming from?
Btw I don't hate whittaker, I just don't like players who are lazy and have a bad attitude. | | | |
| Whittaker gone on 11:51 - Jul 21 with 825 views | ItchySphincter |
| Whittaker gone on 11:35 - Jul 21 by jack247 |
Not putting effort in is unforgivable. There’s no disputing that.
I’m not trying to defend Russell Martin, he may well have treated Whittaker terribly. That does not make it ok to drift around like a disinterested passenger. Same goes for Obafemi, regardless of what you think of the manager or the board, you can’t just not turn up because a bid doesn’t get accepted. In fairness, you couldn’t fault his effort on the pitch.
That’s not to say Martin didn’t handle either of them or any of the others you mentioned badly, it just doesn’t justify their actions. |
Point of note…. I wasn’t bashing Martin but my position remains unchanged in that we don’t really know how good, or bad, Whittaker is. As for Obafemi, I’m not sure why he was considered to be a problem, I’m not privy, but he is a goal scorer, not a great footballer because his first touch was poor, but in terms of effort and goal scoring I couldn’t fault him. | |
| |
| Whittaker gone on 12:03 - Jul 21 with 806 views | jack247 |
| Whittaker gone on 11:51 - Jul 21 by ItchySphincter |
Point of note…. I wasn’t bashing Martin but my position remains unchanged in that we don’t really know how good, or bad, Whittaker is. As for Obafemi, I’m not sure why he was considered to be a problem, I’m not privy, but he is a goal scorer, not a great footballer because his first touch was poor, but in terms of effort and goal scoring I couldn’t fault him. |
I agree, but that’s down to Whittaker. If he’d busted a gut in the position he was played for the 20 minutes or so he got, I think he’d have had a very good chance of playing his way into the starting lineup. He looked more than capable on the ball.
I couldn’t fault Obafemi on the pitch at all. The first time he was dropped, Martin publicly came out and said it was along the lines of timekeeping and not taking training seriously enough. The second he just didn’t show up the day after the transfer window. | | | |
| Whittaker gone on 12:22 - Jul 21 with 791 views | Badlands |
| Whittaker gone on 12:03 - Jul 21 by jack247 |
I agree, but that’s down to Whittaker. If he’d busted a gut in the position he was played for the 20 minutes or so he got, I think he’d have had a very good chance of playing his way into the starting lineup. He looked more than capable on the ball.
I couldn’t fault Obafemi on the pitch at all. The first time he was dropped, Martin publicly came out and said it was along the lines of timekeeping and not taking training seriously enough. The second he just didn’t show up the day after the transfer window. |
Martin had a problem with 'awkward' players.
Some managers can deal with that others can’t… Martin couldn’t.
That, imho, suggests he will never be a successful top class manager. |  |
| |
| Whittaker gone on 12:31 - Jul 21 with 773 views | jack247 |
| Whittaker gone on 12:22 - Jul 21 by Badlands |
Martin had a problem with 'awkward' players.
Some managers can deal with that others can’t… Martin couldn’t.
That, imho, suggests he will never be a successful top class manager. |
Again. Not disagreeing with that all.
The point I’m making is that however a professional footballer is being managed, he doesn’t have the right to drift through games. If he’d given his all I’d be backing him. | | | |
| Whittaker gone on 12:31 - Jul 21 with 773 views | Fireboy2 |
| Whittaker gone on 12:03 - Jul 21 by jack247 |
I agree, but that’s down to Whittaker. If he’d busted a gut in the position he was played for the 20 minutes or so he got, I think he’d have had a very good chance of playing his way into the starting lineup. He looked more than capable on the ball.
I couldn’t fault Obafemi on the pitch at all. The first time he was dropped, Martin publicly came out and said it was along the lines of timekeeping and not taking training seriously enough. The second he just didn’t show up the day after the transfer window. |
The guy showed glimpses of how good he could be, especially at Plymouth but I just don't get why he didn't knuckle down and do what you say busted a gut for whenever he was on the pitch for. | | | |
| Whittaker gone on 12:41 - Jul 21 with 769 views | Fireboy2 |
| Whittaker gone on 12:22 - Jul 21 by Badlands |
Martin had a problem with 'awkward' players.
Some managers can deal with that others can’t… Martin couldn’t.
That, imho, suggests he will never be a successful top class manager. |
I think most managers have a problem with awkward players, it's how they deal with them.
You can be three different types 1. Oppressive 2. Co operative 3. Submissive.
They will have to be good at all three, one player Joe Allen you will be submissive as he's a consumate professional, with grimes you could be co operative as he is experienced but still needs coaching whereas with obafemi you will have to oppressive as he's hard work to manage.
I suspect Martin was all three with whittaker but got nowhere that's why he got little gametime when he came back.
I think Martin will make it to the PL someday as hes young but he will have to learn from his mistakes, time will tell.
The same goes for whittaker, he will have to learn to knuckle down and do the hard stuff, you never know he might do it at Plymouth this season but not against us obviously. | | | |
| Whittaker gone on 13:08 - Jul 21 with 752 views | JackDragon |
At the end of the day the guy doesn't have the ability of a CR7, Messi, Bale or even a Ginola. If he didn't put a shift in during training he was not going to get the starting spot he so clearly craved and the evidence from 3/4 of the 1st team managers he's worked under would seem to point towards that. STID | | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 13:10 - Jul 21 with 746 views | JackDragon |
| | | |
| Whittaker gone on 13:26 - Jul 21 with 721 views | Dr_Winston |
No minds are getting changed in this debate so I'll make this my last contribution.
Whittaker once scored a hat trick and didn't even make it off the bench in the following game, yet some would have us believe that he'd have eventually had a fair crack of the whip from Martin if he'd run around a bit more.
Obviously not. Martin didn't want him, didn't want to use him, had no interest in using him properly in any way, shape or form. Whittaker could have come off the pitch drenched in sweat and still found himself in the same boat. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
| |
| Whittaker gone on 13:59 - Jul 21 with 695 views | jack247 |
| Whittaker gone on 13:26 - Jul 21 by Dr_Winston |
No minds are getting changed in this debate so I'll make this my last contribution.
Whittaker once scored a hat trick and didn't even make it off the bench in the following game, yet some would have us believe that he'd have eventually had a fair crack of the whip from Martin if he'd run around a bit more.
Obviously not. Martin didn't want him, didn't want to use him, had no interest in using him properly in any way, shape or form. Whittaker could have come off the pitch drenched in sweat and still found himself in the same boat. |
I think you’re right about minds not being changed.
I can’t buy that at all though. Jay Fulton was frozen out, Liam Cullen was nowhere and Steven Benda was replaced by Fisher, before all fought their way back into the starting eleven under Martin.
Even Obafemi and Paterson, who he had very public falling outs with were reintegrated.
At the same time, he was happy to drop his own men in Darling, Sorinola and Fisher when others merited their places.
You can believe Whittaker wouldn’t have had a chance no matter what, but the evidence doesn’t back that up. | | | |
| Whittaker gone on 14:16 - Jul 21 with 677 views | raynor94 |
Yet Duff doesn't want him, and he must know a lot about him from last season. |  |
| |
| Whittaker gone on 14:59 - Jul 21 with 647 views | vetchonian |
| Whittaker gone on 14:16 - Jul 21 by raynor94 |
Yet Duff doesn't want him, and he must know a lot about him from last season. |
Or is it more a case of him being a saleable asset for which there was a willing buyer?
Plymouth obviously valued him so much so to break their transfer record.
The thing is we will never know if Duff wanted rid or whether the "ready" money would help fund other transfers or retaining more "desired" players. | |
| |
| Whittaker gone on 15:36 - Jul 21 with 625 views | Fireboy2 |
| Whittaker gone on 14:59 - Jul 21 by vetchonian |
Or is it more a case of him being a saleable asset for which there was a willing buyer?
Plymouth obviously valued him so much so to break their transfer record.
The thing is we will never know if Duff wanted rid or whether the "ready" money would help fund other transfers or retaining more "desired" players. |
If duff wanted him he would have stayed.
Imo the 3 weeks he has seen whittaker made his mind up.
It's lucky we had a buyer willing to pay 1 million quid for him.
I think that whittaker was never going to try when he came back.
Ateotd we have a decent amount of cash that will hopefully bring someone in that duff wants and whoever they may be they will crawl over broken glass to get on the pitch if duff wants him. | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.