| Sala 18:56 - Oct 24 with 5718 views | KeithHaynes |
Let’s keep this civil.
Final appeal in Switzerland and the outcome is binding.
Apparently Tan has spent 16 million fighting this.
There is a winding up order in place of Cardiff lose and don’t pay up.
However, I would imagine they will.
I’m told this is the reason Tan hasn’t sold the club. ( Well it would prove difficult )
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| Sala on 19:46 - Oct 24 with 2145 views | Whiterockin |
If Tan has spent £16m fighting it why didn't they just settle early on. Unless they are going all in and counter claiming for relegation. |  | | |
| Sala on 20:26 - Oct 24 with 2099 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
Can anyone explain to me what Cardiff City did wrong? I believe in insurance. If Cardiff were buying players for £15m with no insurance coverage then that is an issue. In this case there would have been management sackings.
Insurance should protect the innocent for the reckless actions of others or just plain bad luck. That is what the premiums are for. |  |
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| Sala on 20:30 - Oct 24 with 2089 views | Whiterockin |
| Sala on 20:26 - Oct 24 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Can anyone explain to me what Cardiff City did wrong? I believe in insurance. If Cardiff were buying players for £15m with no insurance coverage then that is an issue. In this case there would have been management sackings.
Insurance should protect the innocent for the reckless actions of others or just plain bad luck. That is what the premiums are for. |
They hadn't taken out the insurance. | | | |
| Sala on 20:54 - Oct 24 with 2021 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Sala on 20:30 - Oct 24 by Whiterockin |
They hadn't taken out the insurance. |
I would have thought that a football club like any big business would just have one policy that covers all employees. You wouldn’t need to manually insure every player individually I’d imagine although I may be wrong I’m not an expert. |  |
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| Sala on 20:57 - Oct 24 with 2011 views | Boundy |
| Sala on 20:26 - Oct 24 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Can anyone explain to me what Cardiff City did wrong? I believe in insurance. If Cardiff were buying players for £15m with no insurance coverage then that is an issue. In this case there would have been management sackings.
Insurance should protect the innocent for the reckless actions of others or just plain bad luck. That is what the premiums are for. |
They continually denied he was their player , then he was ergo they now want compensation because with his loss was the reason they were relegated , not my assessment or opinion but from the many statements made by the club , by accounts the trust fund set up by them nearly 2 years ago still hasn't paid out to Salas family |  |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Sala on 21:03 - Oct 24 with 1989 views | Catullus |
| Sala on 20:54 - Oct 24 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
I would have thought that a football club like any big business would just have one policy that covers all employees. You wouldn’t need to manually insure every player individually I’d imagine although I may be wrong I’m not an expert. |
Wasn't their insurance rendered invalid by the means of transport Sala used?
If Tan truly has spent 16 million fighting ths then he's bonkers. he should have paid up and moved on, the whole thing has been a shadow over their club for ages now. Lose this case and the outcome could be a disaster for them, pay up or else. What does it do to their finances? What about FFP?
Lets face it, a full transfer ban, given the state of their team, could be enough to see them relegated, many of their fans apparently think their going down as it stands now. If thy get hit with punishments then it's bye bye.
Much as we love to hate each other, I genuinely feel sorry for their decent, loyal fans and I know a couple. I suspect many of us do. | |
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| Sala on 21:07 - Oct 24 with 1965 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Sala on 20:26 - Oct 24 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Can anyone explain to me what Cardiff City did wrong? I believe in insurance. If Cardiff were buying players for £15m with no insurance coverage then that is an issue. In this case there would have been management sackings.
Insurance should protect the innocent for the reckless actions of others or just plain bad luck. That is what the premiums are for. |
Would the insurance have covered the transfer fee though? It’s a tricky one. I imagine it would cover wages and medical costs for illness and injury and most companies have a death in service agreement but the transfer fee is an agreement that is signed before he becomes an employee.
There’s presumably a contract in place that says Cardiff will pay X amount of money in instalments on X dates in exchange for Sala’s playing registration to be transferred from Nantes and the french league to Cardiff City and the premier league. The court has ruled twice that Nantes completed their side of the contract. Unfortunately in cold hard legal terms it doesn’t matter if Sala is alive or dead in this circumstance. They were paying for the registration transfer, not the man himself. I think this is what people are failing to understand. | |
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| Sala on 21:14 - Oct 24 with 1939 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Sala on 21:07 - Oct 24 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Would the insurance have covered the transfer fee though? It’s a tricky one. I imagine it would cover wages and medical costs for illness and injury and most companies have a death in service agreement but the transfer fee is an agreement that is signed before he becomes an employee.
There’s presumably a contract in place that says Cardiff will pay X amount of money in instalments on X dates in exchange for Sala’s playing registration to be transferred from Nantes and the french league to Cardiff City and the premier league. The court has ruled twice that Nantes completed their side of the contract. Unfortunately in cold hard legal terms it doesn’t matter if Sala is alive or dead in this circumstance. They were paying for the registration transfer, not the man himself. I think this is what people are failing to understand. |
If the insurance sees the players as business assets, then would it not cover the players value…? |  |
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| Sala on 21:17 - Oct 24 with 1930 views | Catullus |
| Sala on 21:07 - Oct 24 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Would the insurance have covered the transfer fee though? It’s a tricky one. I imagine it would cover wages and medical costs for illness and injury and most companies have a death in service agreement but the transfer fee is an agreement that is signed before he becomes an employee.
There’s presumably a contract in place that says Cardiff will pay X amount of money in instalments on X dates in exchange for Sala’s playing registration to be transferred from Nantes and the french league to Cardiff City and the premier league. The court has ruled twice that Nantes completed their side of the contract. Unfortunately in cold hard legal terms it doesn’t matter if Sala is alive or dead in this circumstance. They were paying for the registration transfer, not the man himself. I think this is what people are failing to understand. |
Yes and they presented him to the world as a Cardiff player, it was on tv too wasn't it, on the Welsh news.
No insurance covers you if you fail to meet the criteria, any terms and conditins in the contract. Sala took a flight on an unsafe plane.
If your car fails it's MOT but you drive it anyway, try claiming on the insurance if you crash.
Sala should never have been on that airplane. Just who's fault that is has been argued over and over. I reckon if Cardiff do have a case it's against whoever organised the flight but that's no help if the guilty party cannot pay the bill. Even so, they owe nantes the money. | |
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| Sala on 21:28 - Oct 24 with 1893 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Sala on 21:07 - Oct 24 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Would the insurance have covered the transfer fee though? It’s a tricky one. I imagine it would cover wages and medical costs for illness and injury and most companies have a death in service agreement but the transfer fee is an agreement that is signed before he becomes an employee.
There’s presumably a contract in place that says Cardiff will pay X amount of money in instalments on X dates in exchange for Sala’s playing registration to be transferred from Nantes and the french league to Cardiff City and the premier league. The court has ruled twice that Nantes completed their side of the contract. Unfortunately in cold hard legal terms it doesn’t matter if Sala is alive or dead in this circumstance. They were paying for the registration transfer, not the man himself. I think this is what people are failing to understand. |
He was worth £15m as that was required to buy up his contract. If he was sold immediately that would be what Watford for example would need to pay. It is his intrinsic value to the club. He if replaced 'like for like' would need £15m (Chris Wood for example) just like a carpet after a flood.
The guilty parties would have Public liability insurance as I understand it and even for ordinary folk this is for a very large sum. This is how it is explained.
"Public liability insurance is your protection in case your business activities kill or injure a member of the public, or damage their property. If that person takes you to court, it will cover your legal costs, as well as any compensation you have to pay."
I had to have it as part of my terms as a free lance worker in engineering. It is a cheap insurance to take out as such instances are happily very rare. Upto £5m if I recall accurately. The insurer of the aeroplane hire firm and the owner would be exposed in this as well as the agent. It seems to me a carbon monoxide poisoning was from the planes engine. Cardiff will have to pay presumably but would go after the insurancers.
I am not an insurance experts just offering home some common sense. | |
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| Sala on 21:33 - Oct 24 with 1880 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Sala on 21:14 - Oct 24 by Kilkennyjack |
If the insurance sees the players as business assets, then would it not cover the players value…? |
The player himself has no value. The value is the agreed price to pay for the transfer registration. Again you are not paying for the player. You can’t own or trade a human being. When paying for the transfer you’re not paying for his services either, his services are paid for under the terms of his contract which I presume has been covered by insurance because Cardiff aren’t complaining about that. | |
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| Sala on 21:47 - Oct 24 with 1844 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Sala on 21:33 - Oct 24 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
The player himself has no value. The value is the agreed price to pay for the transfer registration. Again you are not paying for the player. You can’t own or trade a human being. When paying for the transfer you’re not paying for his services either, his services are paid for under the terms of his contract which I presume has been covered by insurance because Cardiff aren’t complaining about that. |
The value of the contract is listed in the accounts as I understand it. Each year under certain rules the value ( liely transfer fee) is downgraded to zero over the contract term. Accountant do not agree with your point.
The club has a value of the players outstanding contract which they can sell for a fee of their choosing. | |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 21:49 - Oct 24 with 1825 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Sala on 21:14 - Oct 24 by Kilkennyjack |
If the insurance sees the players as business assets, then would it not cover the players value…? |
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| Sala on 21:56 - Oct 24 with 1798 views | Catullus |
| Sala on 21:47 - Oct 24 by ReslovenSwan1 |
The value of the contract is listed in the accounts as I understand it. Each year under certain rules the value ( liely transfer fee) is downgraded to zero over the contract term. Accountant do not agree with your point.
The club has a value of the players outstanding contract which they can sell for a fee of their choosing. |
The player is deceased, there is no contract, as it stands they haven't paid any fee either.
Once more, if the means of transport invalidated any insurance there will be no payout.
From memory though, wasn't the pilot breaking the rules? The plane wasn't fit (nor insured I believe) to fly a commercial journey. No insurance would pay out on that, the policy is invalidated even if it existed.
Cardiff have lost this case twice, spent a lot of money (apparently) fighting the case, if they lose this again the financial implications for the club look quite nasty. | |
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| Sala on 21:56 - Oct 24 with 1787 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Sala on 21:47 - Oct 24 by ReslovenSwan1 |
The value of the contract is listed in the accounts as I understand it. Each year under certain rules the value ( liely transfer fee) is downgraded to zero over the contract term. Accountant do not agree with your point.
The club has a value of the players outstanding contract which they can sell for a fee of their choosing. |
Insurance isn’t taken automatically though, it needs to be added to a policy. He was signed and died on a weekend, no insurance was registered. Annis who is best buds with Sam Hammam that papers were due to be submitted 9am Monday morning - yet he died in the early hours.
If he was insured they wouldn’t have been able to make the claim that he wasn’t their player. You can’t take out insurance on another clubs player - which suggests they had no insurance. They also wouldn’t have bothered with kicking up such a stink.
They would have simply got their reimbursement back from the insurance company and replaced him, or strengthened the following season. |  |
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| Sala on 22:03 - Oct 24 with 1782 views | Catullus |
| Sala on 21:56 - Oct 24 by Dr_Parnassus |
Insurance isn’t taken automatically though, it needs to be added to a policy. He was signed and died on a weekend, no insurance was registered. Annis who is best buds with Sam Hammam that papers were due to be submitted 9am Monday morning - yet he died in the early hours.
If he was insured they wouldn’t have been able to make the claim that he wasn’t their player. You can’t take out insurance on another clubs player - which suggests they had no insurance. They also wouldn’t have bothered with kicking up such a stink.
They would have simply got their reimbursement back from the insurance company and replaced him, or strengthened the following season. |
isn't any insurance invalidated because he travelled on an airplane not fit for purpose? The pilot wasn't covered for commercial travel was he?
In which case any insurance is invalidated and we all know insurance companies don't need much of an excuse to not pay out.
it's a total shite show for Cardiff and th guilty party hasnt the money to reimburse them which isn't nantes fault.
He was a Cardiff player legally speaking, it's been decided twice. This last court case could be a bad, bad nail for them. | |
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| Sala on 22:04 - Oct 24 with 1776 views | Whiterockin |
| Sala on 21:56 - Oct 24 by Dr_Parnassus |
Insurance isn’t taken automatically though, it needs to be added to a policy. He was signed and died on a weekend, no insurance was registered. Annis who is best buds with Sam Hammam that papers were due to be submitted 9am Monday morning - yet he died in the early hours.
If he was insured they wouldn’t have been able to make the claim that he wasn’t their player. You can’t take out insurance on another clubs player - which suggests they had no insurance. They also wouldn’t have bothered with kicking up such a stink.
They would have simply got their reimbursement back from the insurance company and replaced him, or strengthened the following season. |
This is the crux of the argument, as I have said previously he was not insured, the policy had not been taken out. I'm pretty sure he hadn't been registered with the Premier League, so wasn't covered there either. | | | |
| Sala on 22:06 - Oct 24 with 1763 views | Whiterockin |
| Sala on 22:03 - Oct 24 by Catullus |
isn't any insurance invalidated because he travelled on an airplane not fit for purpose? The pilot wasn't covered for commercial travel was he?
In which case any insurance is invalidated and we all know insurance companies don't need much of an excuse to not pay out.
it's a total shite show for Cardiff and th guilty party hasnt the money to reimburse them which isn't nantes fault.
He was a Cardiff player legally speaking, it's been decided twice. This last court case could be a bad, bad nail for them. |
There was no insurance to be invalidated. | | | |
| Sala on 22:11 - Oct 24 with 1737 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Sala on 22:03 - Oct 24 by Catullus |
isn't any insurance invalidated because he travelled on an airplane not fit for purpose? The pilot wasn't covered for commercial travel was he?
In which case any insurance is invalidated and we all know insurance companies don't need much of an excuse to not pay out.
it's a total shite show for Cardiff and th guilty party hasnt the money to reimburse them which isn't nantes fault.
He was a Cardiff player legally speaking, it's been decided twice. This last court case could be a bad, bad nail for them. |
Depends on the wording of it really, but it quite clearly doesn’t exist. The actions and behaviour since his death has made that quite clear. Mehmet Dalman also said that it could bankrupt the club (after previously saying they had set aside the figure).
So there is no chance he is insured, but yes, even if he was - they would have one hell of a job claiming in such circumstances.
I have always said all that is going to happen is they will have to pay Nantes and then seek damages from elsewhere. The two places they can is David Henderson who was found guilty of giving his job to an under qualified pilot and the company that owned the plane.
However it’s fairly clear Henderson won’t have the money and the company that owned the plane is buried under a mountain of international asset holders. In short anyone who they have a legitimate case against will either file for bankruptcy or they will never be found.
Something they will just have to take on the chin. | |
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| Sala on 22:15 - Oct 24 with 1729 views | Catullus |
| Sala on 22:11 - Oct 24 by Dr_Parnassus |
Depends on the wording of it really, but it quite clearly doesn’t exist. The actions and behaviour since his death has made that quite clear. Mehmet Dalman also said that it could bankrupt the club (after previously saying they had set aside the figure).
So there is no chance he is insured, but yes, even if he was - they would have one hell of a job claiming in such circumstances.
I have always said all that is going to happen is they will have to pay Nantes and then seek damages from elsewhere. The two places they can is David Henderson who was found guilty of giving his job to an under qualified pilot and the company that owned the plane.
However it’s fairly clear Henderson won’t have the money and the company that owned the plane is buried under a mountain of international asset holders. In short anyone who they have a legitimate case against will either file for bankruptcy or they will never be found.
Something they will just have to take on the chin. |
Yes, that seems to be the big picture. In which case if Tan has spent as much as suggested fighting this then he has lost his marbles.
Cardiff fans seem resigned to being rubbish but that is certainly better than bankruptcy. Tan should have paid up. | |
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| Sala on 22:18 - Oct 24 with 1715 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| Sala on 22:11 - Oct 24 by Dr_Parnassus |
Depends on the wording of it really, but it quite clearly doesn’t exist. The actions and behaviour since his death has made that quite clear. Mehmet Dalman also said that it could bankrupt the club (after previously saying they had set aside the figure).
So there is no chance he is insured, but yes, even if he was - they would have one hell of a job claiming in such circumstances.
I have always said all that is going to happen is they will have to pay Nantes and then seek damages from elsewhere. The two places they can is David Henderson who was found guilty of giving his job to an under qualified pilot and the company that owned the plane.
However it’s fairly clear Henderson won’t have the money and the company that owned the plane is buried under a mountain of international asset holders. In short anyone who they have a legitimate case against will either file for bankruptcy or they will never be found.
Something they will just have to take on the chin. |
If there’s no insurance then won’t they have to fork out for his wages etc too? Even at a conservative estimate that he was on £50,000 a week that’s well over ten million pounds for a three and a half year deal? | |
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| Sala on 22:30 - Oct 24 with 1675 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Sala on 22:18 - Oct 24 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
If there’s no insurance then won’t they have to fork out for his wages etc too? Even at a conservative estimate that he was on £50,000 a week that’s well over ten million pounds for a three and a half year deal? |
I know they set up a trust fund for the Sala family (although it took the family going public regarding their lack of doing so, in order for it to happen) - so I would guess that is what that would be. | |
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| Sala on 22:33 - Oct 24 with 1680 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Sala on 22:11 - Oct 24 by Dr_Parnassus |
Depends on the wording of it really, but it quite clearly doesn’t exist. The actions and behaviour since his death has made that quite clear. Mehmet Dalman also said that it could bankrupt the club (after previously saying they had set aside the figure).
So there is no chance he is insured, but yes, even if he was - they would have one hell of a job claiming in such circumstances.
I have always said all that is going to happen is they will have to pay Nantes and then seek damages from elsewhere. The two places they can is David Henderson who was found guilty of giving his job to an under qualified pilot and the company that owned the plane.
However it’s fairly clear Henderson won’t have the money and the company that owned the plane is buried under a mountain of international asset holders. In short anyone who they have a legitimate case against will either file for bankruptcy or they will never be found.
Something they will just have to take on the chin. |
Henderson was insured i would think to be able to get a licence to fly from the CAA. It is compulsory probably with public indemnity insurance of millions. What would have happened if the plane crashed into an apartment block?.
The owners had to insure the plane otherwise they would not get a licence to fly it in the UK from the CAA. I imagine it had some form of MOT. We do not live in the wild west. Accidents happen when mistakes are made. There were more than one in this case.
The insurers had to be reputable companies who fulfill their obligations. It is what UK is particularly good at. | |
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| Sala on 22:48 - Oct 24 with 1631 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Sala on 22:33 - Oct 24 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Henderson was insured i would think to be able to get a licence to fly from the CAA. It is compulsory probably with public indemnity insurance of millions. What would have happened if the plane crashed into an apartment block?.
The owners had to insure the plane otherwise they would not get a licence to fly it in the UK from the CAA. I imagine it had some form of MOT. We do not live in the wild west. Accidents happen when mistakes are made. There were more than one in this case.
The insurers had to be reputable companies who fulfill their obligations. It is what UK is particularly good at. |
That would be the case for a commercial plane, however this was a private personal flight arranged as a favour for the McKays - and it has been insisted that no money changed hands. There is no way it would cover a speculative value of a player to a club. It would cover damage to property - Sala was not Cardiff’s property, they bought his registration not the person.
That registration remained Cardiff’s possession even after the tragedy - it just obviously became worthless.
But as I said, the owners of the plane would be a legitimate avenue to go down to recover any monies paid to Nantes - however there is barely a trace of them and if they were ever found I can’t imagine they would have that sort of money and would just claim bankruptcy. The plane itself was an old Piper, you can probably buy one for 300k, that asset is also now gone. | |
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| Sala on 23:27 - Oct 24 with 1588 views | STID2017 |
| Sala on 21:03 - Oct 24 by Catullus |
Wasn't their insurance rendered invalid by the means of transport Sala used?
If Tan truly has spent 16 million fighting ths then he's bonkers. he should have paid up and moved on, the whole thing has been a shadow over their club for ages now. Lose this case and the outcome could be a disaster for them, pay up or else. What does it do to their finances? What about FFP?
Lets face it, a full transfer ban, given the state of their team, could be enough to see them relegated, many of their fans apparently think their going down as it stands now. If thy get hit with punishments then it's bye bye.
Much as we love to hate each other, I genuinely feel sorry for their decent, loyal fans and I know a couple. I suspect many of us do. |
Yes rivalry aside, this gross mismanagement is an insult to all their decent fans who pay their money to follow the club, only to have it so badly handled. |  |
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