| In North West London 20:09 - Oct 12 with 8294 views | Malintabuk |
Booing for not taking the knee..... the compulsory booing of a national anthem and rucking in the stands with the old Bill weighing in with batons.... and there is even a football match happening amongst all this |  | | |  |
| In North West London on 17:00 - Oct 13 with 1819 views | stevec |
| In North West London on 15:22 - Oct 13 by Benny_the_Ball |
Really? Never mind what you think was reported, watch the footage. The police were the aggressors, plain and simple. They attacked with batons; there was nothing softly-softly about their approach. Unfortunately for them they didn't appreciate who they were up against and soon beat a hasty retreat. Ultimately when all is said and done, there was just 1 arrest; 1. Subsequently labelling 1000 people as a load of cu nts says more about you than them.
In any event, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. English football has been synonymous with hooliganism and racism for decades. Don't think for one second just because you're kneeling and virtual signalling that you have it sussed. You don't, as was clearly demonstrated by the 1000s of English fans that stormed the Euros final without a ticket and the disgusting racial abuse directed at their own players after losing the penalty shootout. Where were the riot police then?
Sort your own house out instead of misdirecting attention on others. [Post edited 13 Oct 2021 15:58]
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Well said.
It’s getting tiresome listening to so many of my own country acting as if they’re some kind of moral compass for the rest of the world. |  | | |
| In North West London on 17:23 - Oct 13 with 1773 views | robith |
| In North West London on 15:48 - Oct 13 by Benny_the_Ball |
Firstly, right wing doesn't necessarily mean Nazi or fascist. Secondly, in recent years Communism flattened most of East and Central Europe. Memories of the harsh regime and the atrocities committed by the USSR are still fresh in people's minds.
In Hungary's case, take 158 years of Ottoman rule, the loss of over 72% of territory and 64% of population via the Treaty of Versailles, significant damage to the economy caused by WW2, and subsequent Communist repression and you can begin to understand why their politics is perhaps not the same as ours. [Post edited 13 Oct 2021 15:51]
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The Ottoman's left Hungary in 1699, bit of a push to say it defines their modern politics |  | | |
| In North West London on 17:26 - Oct 13 with 1753 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Reading the last page makes me realise how little European History I know.
Was it not taught in my school, or was I asleep? |  |
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| In North West London on 18:42 - Oct 13 with 1673 views | distortR |
| In North West London on 17:26 - Oct 13 by BrianMcCarthy |
Reading the last page makes me realise how little European History I know.
Was it not taught in my school, or was I asleep? |
Did he just say 'Churchill'?
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| In North West London on 19:21 - Oct 13 with 1630 views | CiderwithRsie |
| In North West London on 17:23 - Oct 13 by robith |
The Ottoman's left Hungary in 1699, bit of a push to say it defines their modern politics |
You'd think that, wouldn't you, but it doesn't stop Orban banging on about being a bastion of Christendom against Muslim hordes, and it seems to do him very nicely at the ballot box.
I'm no expert on Hungarians or their history, but after Mohacs Hungary wasn't independent again until 1918, and then under Nazi or Soviet rule from (say) 1944 to 1989. And when they have been independent post-1918 it has been as a small country (initially a defeated one) rather than the huge medieval Kingdom of St Stephen, so it's certainly the case that Ottoman rule was a game-changer for Hungary. I suspect it looms large as a national legend. Look at the battle of Kossovo Polje and it's influence on Serbian national identity for comparison. | | | |
| In North West London on 19:51 - Oct 13 with 1584 views | distortR |
| In North West London on 19:21 - Oct 13 by CiderwithRsie |
You'd think that, wouldn't you, but it doesn't stop Orban banging on about being a bastion of Christendom against Muslim hordes, and it seems to do him very nicely at the ballot box.
I'm no expert on Hungarians or their history, but after Mohacs Hungary wasn't independent again until 1918, and then under Nazi or Soviet rule from (say) 1944 to 1989. And when they have been independent post-1918 it has been as a small country (initially a defeated one) rather than the huge medieval Kingdom of St Stephen, so it's certainly the case that Ottoman rule was a game-changer for Hungary. I suspect it looms large as a national legend. Look at the battle of Kossovo Polje and it's influence on Serbian national identity for comparison. |
I applaud your, and other people's, knowledge of history, as shown on this thread. I really do.
Hungary in the 17thC? I don't even know where I was on parts of Saturday night. | | | |
| In North West London on 20:29 - Oct 13 with 1494 views | CiderwithRsie |
| In North West London on 19:51 - Oct 13 by distortR |
I applaud your, and other people's, knowledge of history, as shown on this thread. I really do.
Hungary in the 17thC? I don't even know where I was on parts of Saturday night. |
I do have a degree in Medieval history. Though it is really hard to incorporate Hungary in that, it's virtually untaught here. I actually own a copy of about the only English language book on it but it's tough going and I've never got beyond half-way.
But I was fascinated by Eastern Europe as a kid ('cos you couldn't go) and as soon as the Berlin Wall came down I saved up for a train ticket to Budapest and had two months in Hungary, Czechoslovakia (as was) and Berlin in spring 1990. Half of what I know about the place is either picked up from museums etc. then or from the 1989 Rough Guide to Hungary! So don't be too impressed. | | | |
| In North West London on 20:46 - Oct 13 with 1468 views | distortR |
| In North West London on 20:29 - Oct 13 by CiderwithRsie |
I do have a degree in Medieval history. Though it is really hard to incorporate Hungary in that, it's virtually untaught here. I actually own a copy of about the only English language book on it but it's tough going and I've never got beyond half-way.
But I was fascinated by Eastern Europe as a kid ('cos you couldn't go) and as soon as the Berlin Wall came down I saved up for a train ticket to Budapest and had two months in Hungary, Czechoslovakia (as was) and Berlin in spring 1990. Half of what I know about the place is either picked up from museums etc. then or from the 1989 Rough Guide to Hungary! So don't be too impressed. |
I seem to have lost all ability to retain information these days  | | | |
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| In North West London on 20:58 - Oct 13 with 1445 views | ParkRoyalR |
| In North West London on 17:26 - Oct 13 by BrianMcCarthy |
Reading the last page makes me realise how little European History I know.
Was it not taught in my school, or was I asleep? |
Well I can clearly remember being taught that William Wilberforce abolished slavery, and not being taught a word about the preceding 300 years of genocide.
Some parallels to the current moral high-ground being taken after 50 years of football hooliganism and racism in our game. | | | |
| In North West London on 21:29 - Oct 13 with 1395 views | MrSheen |
| In North West London on 19:21 - Oct 13 by CiderwithRsie |
You'd think that, wouldn't you, but it doesn't stop Orban banging on about being a bastion of Christendom against Muslim hordes, and it seems to do him very nicely at the ballot box.
I'm no expert on Hungarians or their history, but after Mohacs Hungary wasn't independent again until 1918, and then under Nazi or Soviet rule from (say) 1944 to 1989. And when they have been independent post-1918 it has been as a small country (initially a defeated one) rather than the huge medieval Kingdom of St Stephen, so it's certainly the case that Ottoman rule was a game-changer for Hungary. I suspect it looms large as a national legend. Look at the battle of Kossovo Polje and it's influence on Serbian national identity for comparison. |
Notionally co-equal with Austria 1867-1918, with its own parliament and its own area of dominion, principally Croatia/Vojvodina, Transylvania and Slovakia, essentially all the places “lost” at Trianon. Austria had Bohemia/Moravia (now Czechia), Galicia (southern Poland and Western Ukraine), Slovenia and Trentino (NE Italy).
My understanding is that they weren’t very gracious as top dogs, hence how keen the locals were to see the back of them. In Transylvania, most of the large landowners were Hungarians, often absentee, and their peasant/serfs Romanian, similar to the situation in Ireland.
Their modern attitudes to Islam are undoubtedly influenced by their history of Turkish occupation, none of the guilt feelings here about crusaders and empire. Not many in Turkey either, football fans sing about marching on Vienna, though they haven’t tried in the last 300 years. |  | | |
| In North West London on 21:53 - Oct 13 with 1357 views | CiderwithRsie |
| In North West London on 21:29 - Oct 13 by MrSheen |
Notionally co-equal with Austria 1867-1918, with its own parliament and its own area of dominion, principally Croatia/Vojvodina, Transylvania and Slovakia, essentially all the places “lost” at Trianon. Austria had Bohemia/Moravia (now Czechia), Galicia (southern Poland and Western Ukraine), Slovenia and Trentino (NE Italy).
My understanding is that they weren’t very gracious as top dogs, hence how keen the locals were to see the back of them. In Transylvania, most of the large landowners were Hungarians, often absentee, and their peasant/serfs Romanian, similar to the situation in Ireland.
Their modern attitudes to Islam are undoubtedly influenced by their history of Turkish occupation, none of the guilt feelings here about crusaders and empire. Not many in Turkey either, football fans sing about marching on Vienna, though they haven’t tried in the last 300 years. |
You might enjoy "The Transylvanian Trilogy" aka "The Writing on the Wall" by Miklos Banffy, available in translation in 2 volumes from Everyman Library. Banffy was Hungarian Foreign Minister for a year or two post-Trianon, but the book is set just before 1914.
There's a telling scene when the hero, a Hungarian landowner in Transylvania, discovers the Rumanian peasants are being exploited by loan sharks and goes to a Romanian Nationalist MP he respects and asks the guy to intervene. The MP refuses because he says the Rumanians will never be free until there is a Rumanian middle and upper class who can stand up to the Magyars and the only way that'll happen is if the most unscrupulous Rumanians exploit their own people and get rich.
There's also reams of ludicrously petty Hungarian politics which I couldn't work out why they were in the book until I concluded that the pettiness was the point and Banffy was blaming his own class for p*ssing away a really sweet deal by bitching about the Germans while screwing the Slavs and Rumanians (and poor Magyars) until the one thing everyone could agree on was that the Magyar aristocracy were c*nts. | | | |
| In North West London on 22:15 - Oct 13 with 1327 views | MrSheen |
| In North West London on 21:53 - Oct 13 by CiderwithRsie |
You might enjoy "The Transylvanian Trilogy" aka "The Writing on the Wall" by Miklos Banffy, available in translation in 2 volumes from Everyman Library. Banffy was Hungarian Foreign Minister for a year or two post-Trianon, but the book is set just before 1914.
There's a telling scene when the hero, a Hungarian landowner in Transylvania, discovers the Rumanian peasants are being exploited by loan sharks and goes to a Romanian Nationalist MP he respects and asks the guy to intervene. The MP refuses because he says the Rumanians will never be free until there is a Rumanian middle and upper class who can stand up to the Magyars and the only way that'll happen is if the most unscrupulous Rumanians exploit their own people and get rich.
There's also reams of ludicrously petty Hungarian politics which I couldn't work out why they were in the book until I concluded that the pettiness was the point and Banffy was blaming his own class for p*ssing away a really sweet deal by bitching about the Germans while screwing the Slavs and Rumanians (and poor Magyars) until the one thing everyone could agree on was that the Magyar aristocracy were c*nts. |
Thanks, I’ll look that up. I got into the history of it a few years ago when I read Simon Winder’s Danubia about the old Habsburg Empire, sent me to Transylvania to have a look for myself, fascinating place. He’s a bit of a Habsburg nostalgic, particularly in view of how violent the place became in the decades after the empire collapsed and the new nations began purging themselves of “alien” elements. | | | |
| In North West London on 23:09 - Oct 13 with 1258 views | robith |
| In North West London on 17:26 - Oct 13 by BrianMcCarthy |
Reading the last page makes me realise how little European History I know.
Was it not taught in my school, or was I asleep? |
If you want to catch up
James Joll's Europe since 1870 will give you a brisk modern ideas led precis
If you want to go deeper, Paul Kennedy's The Rise and Fall Of The Great Powers covers 1500 to the late 90s, and if you don't get through it, it makes a great door stop | | | |
| In North West London on 00:05 - Oct 14 with 1218 views | ted_hendrix |
| In North West London on 20:29 - Oct 13 by CiderwithRsie |
I do have a degree in Medieval history. Though it is really hard to incorporate Hungary in that, it's virtually untaught here. I actually own a copy of about the only English language book on it but it's tough going and I've never got beyond half-way.
But I was fascinated by Eastern Europe as a kid ('cos you couldn't go) and as soon as the Berlin Wall came down I saved up for a train ticket to Budapest and had two months in Hungary, Czechoslovakia (as was) and Berlin in spring 1990. Half of what I know about the place is either picked up from museums etc. then or from the 1989 Rough Guide to Hungary! So don't be too impressed. |
I spent a week in what was then West Berlin, (Army) we had to travel through the GDR on a Russian military train under escort then get off of the train at the West German part of Berlin.
No question about it but back in the late 60's the threat of invasion from Russia and It's allies was 100% real.
You could look into the Eastern part of the city which looked utterly downtrodden, the East German soldiers on the wall just stared back at us. West Berlin was massively the opposite to the East very vibrant and active.
They were strange times. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| In North West London on 01:02 - Oct 14 with 1174 views | LythamR |
| In North West London on 17:23 - Oct 13 by robith |
The Ottoman's left Hungary in 1699, bit of a push to say it defines their modern politics |
It doesnt define their politics but its probably still a reasonably significant factor as it is for the balkan states, southern russia and former republics such as armenia
Fear and hatred created by hundreds of years of conflict and stoked by religion and political leaders becomes ingrained in a nations psyche and is difficult to shift and easy to bring to the surface |  | | |
| In North West London on 07:31 - Oct 14 with 1019 views | distortR |
| In North West London on 01:02 - Oct 14 by LythamR |
It doesnt define their politics but its probably still a reasonably significant factor as it is for the balkan states, southern russia and former republics such as armenia
Fear and hatred created by hundreds of years of conflict and stoked by religion and political leaders becomes ingrained in a nations psyche and is difficult to shift and easy to bring to the surface |
This is about Yorkshire really, isn't it?! | | | |
| In North West London on 07:32 - Oct 14 with 1013 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| In North West London on 07:31 - Oct 14 by distortR |
This is about Yorkshire really, isn't it?! |
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| In North West London on 08:05 - Oct 14 with 984 views | TheChef |
| In North West London on 20:58 - Oct 13 by ParkRoyalR |
Well I can clearly remember being taught that William Wilberforce abolished slavery, and not being taught a word about the preceding 300 years of genocide.
Some parallels to the current moral high-ground being taken after 50 years of football hooliganism and racism in our game. |
History is written by the victors, and all that. |  |
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| In North West London on 08:34 - Oct 14 with 953 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
| In North West London on 19:21 - Oct 13 by CiderwithRsie |
You'd think that, wouldn't you, but it doesn't stop Orban banging on about being a bastion of Christendom against Muslim hordes, and it seems to do him very nicely at the ballot box.
I'm no expert on Hungarians or their history, but after Mohacs Hungary wasn't independent again until 1918, and then under Nazi or Soviet rule from (say) 1944 to 1989. And when they have been independent post-1918 it has been as a small country (initially a defeated one) rather than the huge medieval Kingdom of St Stephen, so it's certainly the case that Ottoman rule was a game-changer for Hungary. I suspect it looms large as a national legend. Look at the battle of Kossovo Polje and it's influence on Serbian national identity for comparison. |
Impressive bit of knowledge there. Also inevitable that the Serbs got mentioned at some point I s'pose. |  | | |
| In North West London on 10:02 - Oct 14 with 891 views | willis1980 |
| In North West London on 00:05 - Oct 14 by ted_hendrix |
I spent a week in what was then West Berlin, (Army) we had to travel through the GDR on a Russian military train under escort then get off of the train at the West German part of Berlin.
No question about it but back in the late 60's the threat of invasion from Russia and It's allies was 100% real.
You could look into the Eastern part of the city which looked utterly downtrodden, the East German soldiers on the wall just stared back at us. West Berlin was massively the opposite to the East very vibrant and active.
They were strange times. |
When I was a child living in Hamburg I never really appreciated how close the wall was (about an hours drive), we did at times have sirens go off in my neighbourhood which were there in case of the Soviet invasion.
My Mum had friends in the Army based in West Berlin and going to visit them was a real pain in the backside, all of the checks etc.
My grandmothers family fled to Germany from Poland to the North of Germany, once the wall came down and we visited her old town she was in tears looking at what had happened to the place. I remember seeing loads and I mean loads of Red Army soldiers milling around the streets smoking fags and drinking with seemingly nothing to do. Some looked pretty underfed too.
I know a couple that managed to escape the old east not long before the wall came down actually. This is quite the story:
https://www.pressreader.com/india/the-asian-age/20141103/282510066842568 | | | |
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