| Championship Table 15:08 - Sep 18 with 3299 views | PinnerPaul |
Yes I know Clive is going to call me an idiot for looking at the tables now but interestingly only 3 points between 5th and 17th in our league.
Of course Paul, you clown, its early in the season, I hear you shout BUT here are the gaps between 5tyh and 17th in the other leagues
PL = 7
L1 =7
L2 = 9
National League = 9
Championship really is competitive/rubbish depending on your view! |  | | |  |
| Championship Table on 11:16 - Sep 21 with 2541 views | losethedrum |
It is competitive , just ask those who say it is rubbish if they have played at championship level .
Best thing is that any team can beat another including bottom beating top . | | | |
| Championship Table on 11:27 - Sep 21 with 2503 views | daveB |
The standard of football is pretty rubbish most of the time but it's always an exciting league as things change so quickly, the playoffs have really helped with that and keeps the season open for most clubs until the final month which won't be the case in the prem. |  | | |
| Championship Table on 11:37 - Sep 21 with 2467 views | CliveWilsonSaid |
| Championship Table on 11:27 - Sep 21 by daveB |
The standard of football is pretty rubbish most of the time but it's always an exciting league as things change so quickly, the playoffs have really helped with that and keeps the season open for most clubs until the final month which won't be the case in the prem. |
Is the reason the standard of football is rubbish that the league is competitive? Lots of sides of roughly equal ability so they cancel each other out. Rather than say the Scottish Prem or a lot of european leagues where you have 2 or 3 sides much better than the rest. |  |
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| Championship Table on 12:44 - Sep 21 with 2309 views | DWQPR |
| Championship Table on 11:27 - Sep 21 by daveB |
The standard of football is pretty rubbish most of the time but it's always an exciting league as things change so quickly, the playoffs have really helped with that and keeps the season open for most clubs until the final month which won't be the case in the prem. |
Watching a couple of PL games over the weekend made me think that the PL is pretty rubbish. At least with the championship it is competitively rubbish. | |
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| Championship Table on 14:10 - Sep 21 with 2184 views | PinnerPaul |
| Championship Table on 11:16 - Sep 21 by losethedrum |
It is competitive , just ask those who say it is rubbish if they have played at championship level .
Best thing is that any team can beat another including bottom beating top . |
Well clearly its not 'rubbish' compared to any other league below it, but maybe a few points worthy of discussion at least
1) Good enough as the 2nd best tier of football in this country?
2) Good enough considering the players on display?
3) Could/would/should the standard be better with less teams?
4) Gap in quality between Champ and PL in line with resources? [Post edited 21 Sep 2022 14:11]
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| Championship Table on 14:35 - Sep 21 with 2136 views | Northernr |
| Championship Table on 11:37 - Sep 21 by CliveWilsonSaid |
Is the reason the standard of football is rubbish that the league is competitive? Lots of sides of roughly equal ability so they cancel each other out. Rather than say the Scottish Prem or a lot of european leagues where you have 2 or 3 sides much better than the rest. |
Is it rubbish compared to my Monday night 7 a side? Of course not. Better than League One obviously. But it is rubbish, and it's rubbish because of the logistics of it.
There is nothing about the way the Championship is set up that encourages good football.
Most of the squads are like ours. A starting 11, and not a lot beyond that. They then ask that starting 11 to play over and over again, in massive bursts of games, mostly three times a week, week after week, for six or seven weeks. Then a fortnight with nothing. Then the same again.
There is zero consideration paid to where these fixtures are. You've got a division spread from Swansea, across to Norwich, down to the south coast (usually though not this season) with three teams up in the north east. But nobody ever thinks creatively, like why don't we split this north and south, so you only play local-ish games in the midweek slots? Nooooo QPR - Boro, Sheff Utd, Blackburn, all perfectly acceptable midweek trips for you. Play Saturday, recovery Sunday, travel Monday, hotel, mooch around fcking Sunderland Tuesday, play Tuesday night, hotel again, or all night on a bus, nothing Wednesday, recovery Thursday, set pieces Friday, play again Saturday. Or, when Sky get involved, as they have next week, play Friday night after a Tuesday in Sheffield. Play Barnsley Saturdsay morning after a Wednesday night at Middlesbrough.
Insane. You're reducing training time, recovery time, treatment time. The players spend their lives on trains, buses and hotels. They play jabbed up all the time. They play tired.
Winter hits, all the pitches cut up. Everybody in the league sees a point away from home as a good result, so start wasting time for that at 30 minutes. Most of the teams in the league recognise they can't cope with the parachute payment clubs, so don't really try - just about hanging in there. The refereeing is the worst it's been in my lifetime, they do nothing about the time wasting, or anything else, and damage poor games further still. Set piece are valued above and beyond all else - certainly above the idea that you might put a few forward passes together and structure an attack.
If you wanted to set a division up to produce crap football, you'd design the Championship, and its TV deal, and its refereeing.
But all the teams are pretty much of muchness, so it's competitive at least. You don't often get a game like Wolves v Man City at the weekend where it's ovver before it;s begun and there's no point in watching. If you happen to get a Mitrovic in your team who can actually play the game he scores A BILLION GOALS.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  | | |
| Championship Table on 14:45 - Sep 21 with 2072 views | BrianMcCarthy |
To be fair, this is the most enjoyable relegation scrap we've been in for years. |  |
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| Championship Table on 14:46 - Sep 21 with 2067 views | TheChef |
| Championship Table on 14:35 - Sep 21 by Northernr |
Is it rubbish compared to my Monday night 7 a side? Of course not. Better than League One obviously. But it is rubbish, and it's rubbish because of the logistics of it.
There is nothing about the way the Championship is set up that encourages good football.
Most of the squads are like ours. A starting 11, and not a lot beyond that. They then ask that starting 11 to play over and over again, in massive bursts of games, mostly three times a week, week after week, for six or seven weeks. Then a fortnight with nothing. Then the same again.
There is zero consideration paid to where these fixtures are. You've got a division spread from Swansea, across to Norwich, down to the south coast (usually though not this season) with three teams up in the north east. But nobody ever thinks creatively, like why don't we split this north and south, so you only play local-ish games in the midweek slots? Nooooo QPR - Boro, Sheff Utd, Blackburn, all perfectly acceptable midweek trips for you. Play Saturday, recovery Sunday, travel Monday, hotel, mooch around fcking Sunderland Tuesday, play Tuesday night, hotel again, or all night on a bus, nothing Wednesday, recovery Thursday, set pieces Friday, play again Saturday. Or, when Sky get involved, as they have next week, play Friday night after a Tuesday in Sheffield. Play Barnsley Saturdsay morning after a Wednesday night at Middlesbrough.
Insane. You're reducing training time, recovery time, treatment time. The players spend their lives on trains, buses and hotels. They play jabbed up all the time. They play tired.
Winter hits, all the pitches cut up. Everybody in the league sees a point away from home as a good result, so start wasting time for that at 30 minutes. Most of the teams in the league recognise they can't cope with the parachute payment clubs, so don't really try - just about hanging in there. The refereeing is the worst it's been in my lifetime, they do nothing about the time wasting, or anything else, and damage poor games further still. Set piece are valued above and beyond all else - certainly above the idea that you might put a few forward passes together and structure an attack.
If you wanted to set a division up to produce crap football, you'd design the Championship, and its TV deal, and its refereeing.
But all the teams are pretty much of muchness, so it's competitive at least. You don't often get a game like Wolves v Man City at the weekend where it's ovver before it;s begun and there's no point in watching. If you happen to get a Mitrovic in your team who can actually play the game he scores A BILLION GOALS.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Was it not always so?
Arguably pitches on average are much better than 20, 30 years ago.
OK so you now have 24 teams rather than 22 (because the Premier League downsized to having 20 teams); and maybe because the players are more athletic they are more likely to break down than their slightly lardier predecessors (see also rugby).
But in terms of distances travelled, schedules and sizes of squads I'd say it's about the same.
Or maybe because of the wonderful internet and social media, managers, players, etc. can complain about it longer and louder  |  |
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| Championship Table on 14:47 - Sep 21 with 2063 views | PinnerPaul |
| Championship Table on 14:46 - Sep 21 by TheChef |
Was it not always so?
Arguably pitches on average are much better than 20, 30 years ago.
OK so you now have 24 teams rather than 22 (because the Premier League downsized to having 20 teams); and maybe because the players are more athletic they are more likely to break down than their slightly lardier predecessors (see also rugby).
But in terms of distances travelled, schedules and sizes of squads I'd say it's about the same.
Or maybe because of the wonderful internet and social media, managers, players, etc. can complain about it longer and louder |
Indeed.
Pitches very rarely 'cut up' in the top 2 leagues. | | | |
| Championship Table on 14:51 - Sep 21 with 2049 views | Northernr |
| Championship Table on 14:46 - Sep 21 by TheChef |
Was it not always so?
Arguably pitches on average are much better than 20, 30 years ago.
OK so you now have 24 teams rather than 22 (because the Premier League downsized to having 20 teams); and maybe because the players are more athletic they are more likely to break down than their slightly lardier predecessors (see also rugby).
But in terms of distances travelled, schedules and sizes of squads I'd say it's about the same.
Or maybe because of the wonderful internet and social media, managers, players, etc. can complain about it longer and louder |
Yeh pretty much. | | | |
| Championship Table on 14:56 - Sep 21 with 2029 views | derbyhoop |
| Championship Table on 14:35 - Sep 21 by Northernr |
Is it rubbish compared to my Monday night 7 a side? Of course not. Better than League One obviously. But it is rubbish, and it's rubbish because of the logistics of it.
There is nothing about the way the Championship is set up that encourages good football.
Most of the squads are like ours. A starting 11, and not a lot beyond that. They then ask that starting 11 to play over and over again, in massive bursts of games, mostly three times a week, week after week, for six or seven weeks. Then a fortnight with nothing. Then the same again.
There is zero consideration paid to where these fixtures are. You've got a division spread from Swansea, across to Norwich, down to the south coast (usually though not this season) with three teams up in the north east. But nobody ever thinks creatively, like why don't we split this north and south, so you only play local-ish games in the midweek slots? Nooooo QPR - Boro, Sheff Utd, Blackburn, all perfectly acceptable midweek trips for you. Play Saturday, recovery Sunday, travel Monday, hotel, mooch around fcking Sunderland Tuesday, play Tuesday night, hotel again, or all night on a bus, nothing Wednesday, recovery Thursday, set pieces Friday, play again Saturday. Or, when Sky get involved, as they have next week, play Friday night after a Tuesday in Sheffield. Play Barnsley Saturdsay morning after a Wednesday night at Middlesbrough.
Insane. You're reducing training time, recovery time, treatment time. The players spend their lives on trains, buses and hotels. They play jabbed up all the time. They play tired.
Winter hits, all the pitches cut up. Everybody in the league sees a point away from home as a good result, so start wasting time for that at 30 minutes. Most of the teams in the league recognise they can't cope with the parachute payment clubs, so don't really try - just about hanging in there. The refereeing is the worst it's been in my lifetime, they do nothing about the time wasting, or anything else, and damage poor games further still. Set piece are valued above and beyond all else - certainly above the idea that you might put a few forward passes together and structure an attack.
If you wanted to set a division up to produce crap football, you'd design the Championship, and its TV deal, and its refereeing.
But all the teams are pretty much of muchness, so it's competitive at least. You don't often get a game like Wolves v Man City at the weekend where it's ovver before it;s begun and there's no point in watching. If you happen to get a Mitrovic in your team who can actually play the game he scores A BILLION GOALS.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
I hear, and get, the complaints but where are the solutions.
Do Championship clubs play during international breaks?
Even if Seny, Ilias, Dykes, kakay, Paal away?
Do you reduce number of teams? With hits to revenue stream.
Do you regionalise?
Do you remove distortions caused by parachute payments?
Can teams refuse Sky demands, if it damages player health?
Can they afford to upset the biggest paymaster?
Remember, even with 1st team squads cut to the bone, most EFL clubs lose money gand over fist. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| Championship Table on 15:09 - Sep 21 with 2003 views | Boston |
Wait 'til you see the fixture congestion when they start chucking around nuclear bombs. | |
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| Championship Table on 15:11 - Sep 21 with 1997 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Championship Table on 15:09 - Sep 21 by Boston |
Wait 'til you see the fixture congestion when they start chucking around nuclear bombs. |
Glad we'll have Dieng in goal for that.
Tony Roberts would've dropped the first one. | |
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| Championship Table on 15:30 - Sep 21 with 1943 views | Northernr |
| Championship Table on 14:56 - Sep 21 by derbyhoop |
I hear, and get, the complaints but where are the solutions.
Do Championship clubs play during international breaks?
Even if Seny, Ilias, Dykes, kakay, Paal away?
Do you reduce number of teams? With hits to revenue stream.
Do you regionalise?
Do you remove distortions caused by parachute payments?
Can teams refuse Sky demands, if it damages player health?
Can they afford to upset the biggest paymaster?
Remember, even with 1st team squads cut to the bone, most EFL clubs lose money gand over fist. |
I'm not really complaining, I enjoy it, follow our team everywhere, watch all the TV games (mainly so I can write about the division with some level of authority but still). It is what it is. I come out of six or seven games a season thinking I've seen a good game of football. Saturday was one of them actually, despite the 0-0. We've had a few this year already - Watford - credit to Beale, we play an attractive and technical style. But, still, Blackburn away, Swansea away, Rotherham home... sludge. Pure sludge.
Ideally, reduce the league by four teams, extend the season by four weeks.
Unlikely to happen.
Fiddling around the edges stuff...
Like I say, north and south split for the midweeks.
Waaaaay better, more integrated thinking with the TV company about who is broadcast when. Basically a better broadcast deal all round, one that doesn't see us filling in on nights when they don't have Prem, or being used to try and cockblock a rival network's Champions League or Prem games. They should decide their games way further in advance and there should be consideration given to things like whether the team played midweek, and where, before you start sticking them on a Friday night. Did you hear about Boro Rotherham at the weekend? Saturday night at 7.45pm, I thought that was weird. Turns out, Sky have to show teams at least twice once either side of Christmas. They'd done their picks through to November, forgotten about the World Cup, and hadn't picked a Rotherham game, so at the last minute they shifted that one to a ridiculous hour, and paid the broadcast fee as if Rotherham were the home team so it counts as their home game. I mean what sort of fcking system is that? Who are these cnts?
They need to pump some of these football billions into refereeing. Training, recruitment, retention, protection. Referees should be paid a fortune, it should be a desirable profession that young people aspire to. You raise standards by increasing the talent pool. At the very least I'd really love it if they learned to tell time, like I did in year fcking one of primary school. That would make a tremendous difference over night. A professional football league going into a 20th year with Keith Stroud, who they'd already fired once, is not one that should be taken seriously by anybody anywhere.
The ball is currently in play 50% of the time in the Champ. It's the lowest total of any European league (see, told you it was rubbish). There should be a huge concerted effort over the next couple of seasons to add 20% to that total. Cards for timewasting, proper amounts of added time, clocks taken off the referees if necessary, proper protocols and head injury assessments so it's not in the players' interests to go down and stop the game if there's nothing wrong with them, free kicks and throw ins reversed and goal kicks changed to corners if you take too long over them. Huge clampdown and campaign on it with an aim of having the ball in play 70% of games by 2025.
This post has been edited by an administrator | | | |
| Championship Table on 17:05 - Sep 21 with 1754 views | PinnerPaul |
| Championship Table on 15:30 - Sep 21 by Northernr |
I'm not really complaining, I enjoy it, follow our team everywhere, watch all the TV games (mainly so I can write about the division with some level of authority but still). It is what it is. I come out of six or seven games a season thinking I've seen a good game of football. Saturday was one of them actually, despite the 0-0. We've had a few this year already - Watford - credit to Beale, we play an attractive and technical style. But, still, Blackburn away, Swansea away, Rotherham home... sludge. Pure sludge.
Ideally, reduce the league by four teams, extend the season by four weeks.
Unlikely to happen.
Fiddling around the edges stuff...
Like I say, north and south split for the midweeks.
Waaaaay better, more integrated thinking with the TV company about who is broadcast when. Basically a better broadcast deal all round, one that doesn't see us filling in on nights when they don't have Prem, or being used to try and cockblock a rival network's Champions League or Prem games. They should decide their games way further in advance and there should be consideration given to things like whether the team played midweek, and where, before you start sticking them on a Friday night. Did you hear about Boro Rotherham at the weekend? Saturday night at 7.45pm, I thought that was weird. Turns out, Sky have to show teams at least twice once either side of Christmas. They'd done their picks through to November, forgotten about the World Cup, and hadn't picked a Rotherham game, so at the last minute they shifted that one to a ridiculous hour, and paid the broadcast fee as if Rotherham were the home team so it counts as their home game. I mean what sort of fcking system is that? Who are these cnts?
They need to pump some of these football billions into refereeing. Training, recruitment, retention, protection. Referees should be paid a fortune, it should be a desirable profession that young people aspire to. You raise standards by increasing the talent pool. At the very least I'd really love it if they learned to tell time, like I did in year fcking one of primary school. That would make a tremendous difference over night. A professional football league going into a 20th year with Keith Stroud, who they'd already fired once, is not one that should be taken seriously by anybody anywhere.
The ball is currently in play 50% of the time in the Champ. It's the lowest total of any European league (see, told you it was rubbish). There should be a huge concerted effort over the next couple of seasons to add 20% to that total. Cards for timewasting, proper amounts of added time, clocks taken off the referees if necessary, proper protocols and head injury assessments so it's not in the players' interests to go down and stop the game if there's nothing wrong with them, free kicks and throw ins reversed and goal kicks changed to corners if you take too long over them. Huge clampdown and campaign on it with an aim of having the ball in play 70% of games by 2025.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Serious (ish) question - if one of the main reasons for the 'rubbish' is too much football, in too short a time period, would not adding 20% to the actual playing time, or 9 matches under current in play times, just add to the fatique/injury prevalence?
Of course in a perfect world that would be bought in alongside your other measures but as we all know football and the world are rarely perfect! | | | |
| Championship Table on 17:09 - Sep 21 with 1741 views | TheChef |
| Championship Table on 17:05 - Sep 21 by PinnerPaul |
Serious (ish) question - if one of the main reasons for the 'rubbish' is too much football, in too short a time period, would not adding 20% to the actual playing time, or 9 matches under current in play times, just add to the fatique/injury prevalence?
Of course in a perfect world that would be bought in alongside your other measures but as we all know football and the world are rarely perfect! |
Could just follow the rugby method of stopping the clock for injuries / when the ball is out of play but that probably seems too sensible. | |
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| Championship Table on 17:17 - Sep 21 with 1726 views | terryb |
| Championship Table on 17:09 - Sep 21 by TheChef |
Could just follow the rugby method of stopping the clock for injuries / when the ball is out of play but that probably seems too sensible. |
And lose nearly 90 seconds of playing time for every kick at goal & setting up a scrum. Collapse the scrum & lose that amount of time again in re-setting. The same applies for line outs. That is before the time that the ball doesn't move during a ruck (or is it a maul?).
Time wasting is far more prevalent in Rugby Union than in football. | | | |
| Championship Table on 19:35 - Sep 21 with 1531 views | QPROslo |
I see the quality of the Championship, just about all the Rangers games but little else, as being pretty good despite there being too many games in 2 month odd rushes, and all the time wasting. Both these problems are easily repairable as others have pointed out. I'd add cutting out the League Cup and promoting the FA Cup, including starting it earlier in the season for League Clubs.. | | | |
| Championship Table on 15:14 - Sep 22 with 1235 views | PinnerPaul |
| Championship Table on 17:09 - Sep 21 by TheChef |
Could just follow the rugby method of stopping the clock for injuries / when the ball is out of play but that probably seems too sensible. |
Yeeessssss but that still means more actual playing time (Assuming we keep the 90') | | | |
| Championship Table on 15:43 - Sep 22 with 1147 views | NewBee |
The question of "quality" in the Championship, whether brilliant or rubbish, really only matters if/when you get promoted to the PL.
Some clubs (Forest? Bournemouth?) will usually get found out, but well-run clubs (Brentford, Fulham?) should still be ok. While traditionally "big" clubs (Villa, Leeds) will also be ok, assuming they get over the first season or two.
While imo many (most?) of Clive's list of Championship drawbacks could fairly easily be addressed by (a ) reducing the division to 20 clubs; and (b ) replacing PL parachute money by more equal, merit-based payments, to make up for the loss of revenue from 8 league matches a season fewer. (You could also reinstate FA/EFL Cup replays, to compensate.)
And once you've sorted that, then it's on to fixing the increased gap between the Championship and League One which would ensue.
Simples! [Post edited 22 Sep 2022 15:45]
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| Championship Table on 15:53 - Sep 22 with 1129 views | stantheman10 |
Marco van Basten & Arsene Wenger are on a FIFA committee trying to implement improvements in to the game and have both suggested playing 2 halves of 30 minutes but stopping the watch/clock everytime there's a stoppage thus guaranteeing 60 minutes of actual play (much like is done in Basketball and Yank Football) | | | |
| Championship Table on 16:06 - Sep 22 with 1106 views | terryb |
| Championship Table on 15:53 - Sep 22 by stantheman10 |
Marco van Basten & Arsene Wenger are on a FIFA committee trying to implement improvements in to the game and have both suggested playing 2 halves of 30 minutes but stopping the watch/clock everytime there's a stoppage thus guaranteeing 60 minutes of actual play (much like is done in Basketball and Yank Football) |
That would depend on your interpretation of actual play.
In American football, if the ball doesn't go dead, I believe that it is 40 seconds allowed before the ball has to be played. Four consectutive runs or sucessful passes without going out of bounds, & that is nearly 20% of the quarter accounted for!
I know that time can easily be used up in football taking free kicks, but our game is no worse than most other sports. | | | |
| Championship Table on 16:20 - Sep 22 with 1094 views | PinnerPaul |
| Championship Table on 16:06 - Sep 22 by terryb |
That would depend on your interpretation of actual play.
In American football, if the ball doesn't go dead, I believe that it is 40 seconds allowed before the ball has to be played. Four consectutive runs or sucessful passes without going out of bounds, & that is nearly 20% of the quarter accounted for!
I know that time can easily be used up in football taking free kicks, but our game is no worse than most other sports. |
Interestingly Terry, despite the perception, I saw a table the other day, that said the actual playing time in the PL had remained constant for the last 20 years. | | | |
| Championship Table on 16:27 - Sep 22 with 1079 views | LongsufferingR |
| Championship Table on 15:53 - Sep 22 by stantheman10 |
Marco van Basten & Arsene Wenger are on a FIFA committee trying to implement improvements in to the game and have both suggested playing 2 halves of 30 minutes but stopping the watch/clock everytime there's a stoppage thus guaranteeing 60 minutes of actual play (much like is done in Basketball and Yank Football) |
Would that be the same Arsene Wenger who called for a World Cup every two years as a solution to absolutely nothing? |  | | |
| Championship Table on 16:55 - Sep 22 with 1022 views | Harbour |
Quality of the football we are playing has improved over the last few years. We are playing much more attractive on the deck football compared to the hoof ball we used to play. No more Bloody neck from watching hoof ball. | | | |
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