| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul 23:43 - Oct 31 with 2039 views | Antti_Heinola |
Something I've often wondered, Pinner. Not sure I've ever seen it, but... here's my very own You are the Ref.
Let's take Ronaldo from a week or so back. United are getting thrashed, he's losing it. He commits a fairly terrible, nearly reckless foul that takes out a Liverpool player. The player goes down, and then Ronaldo twice boots the ball as hard as he can into his body.
Now, let's for a moment imagine that the ref decides Ronaldo's kicking of the ball into the body, particularly as it was after the whistle, was, at best, unsportsmanlike behaviour and worthy of a yellow. But also the original foul was undoubtedly a yellow...
Can a ref effectively book him twice and send him off? Or should he group those two together and give a straight red?
I guess a similar situation might be a player committing a bad foul, then screaming at an assistant for flagging in an offensive way. Could that also be a yellow for each? Anyone ever seen it? I feel like I have seen a ref do it once, but can't remember when... |  |
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| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 07:38 - Nov 1 with 1867 views | ozranger |
The answer is yes you can "double book" a player. That happened this past Saturday in the National League in the Boreham Wood v Southend match where Southend player Agogo was cautioned twice in straight succession in the 64th minute. I was watching the highlights yesterday and it was explained that the second was for dissent and the referee explained that in his hand movements. As Pinner will agree, this is more up to the referee and at the top level where they are happy to take abuse, it seems, you will see it as often as the moon turns purple. |  | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 09:29 - Nov 1 with 1739 views | terryb |
I've certainly seen it happen, but I can't remember any details.
Different, but similar, to this question, I believe Villa should have had two players sent off yesterday in the same move.
The first, for a forearm smash to the face of a West Ham player, didn't even receive a caution! No retrospective action can take place as VAR examined the evidence!
The second, for denying a goal scoring chance was more debatable, but IMO correct. |  | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 09:34 - Nov 1 with 1723 views | LongsufferingR |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 09:29 - Nov 1 by terryb |
I've certainly seen it happen, but I can't remember any details.
Different, but similar, to this question, I believe Villa should have had two players sent off yesterday in the same move.
The first, for a forearm smash to the face of a West Ham player, didn't even receive a caution! No retrospective action can take place as VAR examined the evidence!
The second, for denying a goal scoring chance was more debatable, but IMO correct. |
Surely though if they had given a red for the arm in the face, then the tackle on Bowen wouldn't have been punished because they would have given a free kick for the forearm smash so what happened afterwards would have been irrelevant?
That's an issue with VAR in general. Let's say they decided the arm in the face was a red but the tackle on Bowen then broke his leg? |  | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 09:42 - Nov 1 with 1698 views | francisbowles |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 09:34 - Nov 1 by LongsufferingR |
Surely though if they had given a red for the arm in the face, then the tackle on Bowen wouldn't have been punished because they would have given a free kick for the forearm smash so what happened afterwards would have been irrelevant?
That's an issue with VAR in general. Let's say they decided the arm in the face was a red but the tackle on Bowen then broke his leg? |
Yes, I think your right. However, if the actual foul on Bowen had been worthy of a yellow or red then it would still be given. | | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 09:58 - Nov 1 with 1675 views | terryb |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 09:34 - Nov 1 by LongsufferingR |
Surely though if they had given a red for the arm in the face, then the tackle on Bowen wouldn't have been punished because they would have given a free kick for the forearm smash so what happened afterwards would have been irrelevant?
That's an issue with VAR in general. Let's say they decided the arm in the face was a red but the tackle on Bowen then broke his leg? |
No foul was given for the smash to the face due to advantage, so the foul on Bowen would have counted IMO.
The referee hadn't seen anything that warranted a sending off, but the VAR review should have had him consulting the monitor for both incidents & not just the latter. | | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 10:06 - Nov 1 with 1655 views | Juzzie |
Bollox to all of this, football just needs to go full-on Rollerball. |  | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 10:23 - Nov 1 with 1611 views | LongsufferingR |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 09:58 - Nov 1 by terryb |
No foul was given for the smash to the face due to advantage, so the foul on Bowen would have counted IMO.
The referee hadn't seen anything that warranted a sending off, but the VAR review should have had him consulting the monitor for both incidents & not just the latter. |
Stuart Attwell was VAR so I'm surprised he didn't give a goal kick to West Ham in that situation. | | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 14:24 - Nov 1 with 1451 views | PinnerPaul |
Original question - yes you can give two yellows for 2 close proximity incidents.
1 caveat, the LOTG DO say if two offences are committed at the same time, then the more serious incident is punished.
The Villa game, yes you can play advantage and then go back and card, and of course issue a card for anything else that happens after the advantage.
VAR - Pretty sure that subsequent misconduct after VAR IS still punished, even if play brought back for penalty/goal etc.
One further 'wrinkle' -if you play advantage for 'breaking up promising attack' ie shirt pull that the player 'escapes' from, then you can't go back and caution for that because the attack continued.
Phew! | | | |
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| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 14:27 - Nov 1 with 1445 views | Antti_Heinola |
Thanks Pinner! | |
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| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 19:24 - Nov 1 with 1344 views | paulhoop2 |
I’ve got one can a kit man or physio or doctor be sent off or yellow carded like a coach can ? | |
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| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 20:03 - Nov 1 with 1305 views | ozranger |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 14:24 - Nov 1 by PinnerPaul |
Original question - yes you can give two yellows for 2 close proximity incidents.
1 caveat, the LOTG DO say if two offences are committed at the same time, then the more serious incident is punished.
The Villa game, yes you can play advantage and then go back and card, and of course issue a card for anything else that happens after the advantage.
VAR - Pretty sure that subsequent misconduct after VAR IS still punished, even if play brought back for penalty/goal etc.
One further 'wrinkle' -if you play advantage for 'breaking up promising attack' ie shirt pull that the player 'escapes' from, then you can't go back and caution for that because the attack continued.
Phew! |
A few questions to this..
What is defined as 'at the same time' given the situation with the Southend player? As there is a certain time difference between the actual first offence (foul play) and the second (dissent) even though the awarding of the caution for the first took place a matter of seconds before the second offence occurred. I guess these come under 'close proximity' even though there may be a few minutes between the two offences.
It is interesting that the 'shirt pull" situation is different to a foul play situation, even though many would consider the two similar. That is, a dangerous tackle where the referee played on will see the referee return and caution the offender once play has stopped.
And to that, what happens if it is a goal-scoring opportunity - say a last defender rugby tackles the attacker and the ball runs free whereby a second attacker now attains possession before any defenders and has a direct run at the goal-keeper with the referee choosing to play on, scoring or not which would be irrelevant to the original offence? In the past I was told you can no longer send a player from the field as you as a referee played on but you can return to caution the player. I believe this is a similar situation as handball on the goal line but the goal is scored. The fun starts when if the referee chooses to play-on in that situation and the ball remains in play (i.e., no goal is scored) and without a stoppage of play the same situation as per the original rugby tackle takes place. Then is that defender now cautioned twice, once for each rugby tackle?
While we are at it, have you ever seen a situation where play is down one end of the field and a penalty is awarded down the other, and this is not a VAR situation but in a normal lower league game? Not sure this still applies with all the changes. If a defender say punched an attacker after the ball had been cleared up the field and that punch took place in the penalty area it becomes a send off and a penalty to the offended side. That was the case some years ago and, yes, I have seen it once but cannot remember where. | | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 20:26 - Nov 1 with 1278 views | queensparker |
Who’d be a f-king ref eh? Always had a load of respect for the lads who reffed our free for all Saturday / Sunday League games. Thankless but essential task in lonely circumstances.
Except for Keith Stroud, Gurnham Singh and a few others. F-k them. |  | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 04:22 - Nov 2 with 1151 views | Match82 |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 14:24 - Nov 1 by PinnerPaul |
Original question - yes you can give two yellows for 2 close proximity incidents.
1 caveat, the LOTG DO say if two offences are committed at the same time, then the more serious incident is punished.
The Villa game, yes you can play advantage and then go back and card, and of course issue a card for anything else that happens after the advantage.
VAR - Pretty sure that subsequent misconduct after VAR IS still punished, even if play brought back for penalty/goal etc.
One further 'wrinkle' -if you play advantage for 'breaking up promising attack' ie shirt pull that the player 'escapes' from, then you can't go back and caution for that because the attack continued.
Phew! |
"One further 'wrinkle' -if you play advantage for 'breaking up promising attack' ie shirt pull that the player 'escapes' from, then you can't go back and caution for that because the attack continued."
Presumably this logic does not apply for "denying a clear goalscoring opportunity" when a penalty is awarded? |  | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 10:13 - Nov 2 with 1045 views | terryb |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 20:03 - Nov 1 by ozranger |
A few questions to this..
What is defined as 'at the same time' given the situation with the Southend player? As there is a certain time difference between the actual first offence (foul play) and the second (dissent) even though the awarding of the caution for the first took place a matter of seconds before the second offence occurred. I guess these come under 'close proximity' even though there may be a few minutes between the two offences.
It is interesting that the 'shirt pull" situation is different to a foul play situation, even though many would consider the two similar. That is, a dangerous tackle where the referee played on will see the referee return and caution the offender once play has stopped.
And to that, what happens if it is a goal-scoring opportunity - say a last defender rugby tackles the attacker and the ball runs free whereby a second attacker now attains possession before any defenders and has a direct run at the goal-keeper with the referee choosing to play on, scoring or not which would be irrelevant to the original offence? In the past I was told you can no longer send a player from the field as you as a referee played on but you can return to caution the player. I believe this is a similar situation as handball on the goal line but the goal is scored. The fun starts when if the referee chooses to play-on in that situation and the ball remains in play (i.e., no goal is scored) and without a stoppage of play the same situation as per the original rugby tackle takes place. Then is that defender now cautioned twice, once for each rugby tackle?
While we are at it, have you ever seen a situation where play is down one end of the field and a penalty is awarded down the other, and this is not a VAR situation but in a normal lower league game? Not sure this still applies with all the changes. If a defender say punched an attacker after the ball had been cleared up the field and that punch took place in the penalty area it becomes a send off and a penalty to the offended side. That was the case some years ago and, yes, I have seen it once but cannot remember where. |
"While we are at it, have you ever seen a situation where play is down one end of the field and a penalty is awarded down the other, and this is not a VAR situation but in a normal lower league game? Not sure this still applies with all the changes. If a defender say punched an attacker after the ball had been cleared up the field and that punch took place in the penalty area it becomes a send off and a penalty to the offended side. That was the case some years ago and, yes, I have seen it once but cannot remember where."
I was only talking about this last Friday at the Forest game!
In 1966/7 Chesham were in the first round proper of the FA Cup for the first time & had the worst draw possible - away to Enfield.
After 40 minutes we are outplaying them but the score is 0-0. An Enfield corner is cleared & it is a three against one breakaway. Yes we're going in front!
What? Why has the ref stopped the game? Why is he giving Enfield a penalty? Why is Dave Richards being sent off? The answer being that he thumped an opponent in the penalty area & instead of being one up we're one down.
Final score was 6-0! | | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 15:27 - Nov 2 with 950 views | PinnerPaul |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 19:24 - Nov 1 by paulhoop2 |
I’ve got one can a kit man or physio or doctor be sent off or yellow carded like a coach can ? |
Anyone named in the technical area can now be sent off.
If seen as a safety issue, they would be allowed to stay there for the purpose of providing medical assistance but the dismissal would still be reported. | | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 15:33 - Nov 2 with 937 views | PinnerPaul |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 04:22 - Nov 2 by Match82 |
"One further 'wrinkle' -if you play advantage for 'breaking up promising attack' ie shirt pull that the player 'escapes' from, then you can't go back and caution for that because the attack continued."
Presumably this logic does not apply for "denying a clear goalscoring opportunity" when a penalty is awarded? |
Correct.
For a red card AND penalty the challenge has to be either serious foul play, violent conduct or NOT a genuine attempt for the ball when denying an obvious gs opportunity.
Terry is correct - if you play advantage for denying an obvious gs opportunity outside penalty area and the opportunity still happens then its go back and give a yellow.
Terry correct again about where the ball is, as long as 'in play' if the offence occurs in own penalty area by the defender then its a pen. | | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 17:25 - Nov 2 with 866 views | Antti_Heinola |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 10:13 - Nov 2 by terryb |
"While we are at it, have you ever seen a situation where play is down one end of the field and a penalty is awarded down the other, and this is not a VAR situation but in a normal lower league game? Not sure this still applies with all the changes. If a defender say punched an attacker after the ball had been cleared up the field and that punch took place in the penalty area it becomes a send off and a penalty to the offended side. That was the case some years ago and, yes, I have seen it once but cannot remember where."
I was only talking about this last Friday at the Forest game!
In 1966/7 Chesham were in the first round proper of the FA Cup for the first time & had the worst draw possible - away to Enfield.
After 40 minutes we are outplaying them but the score is 0-0. An Enfield corner is cleared & it is a three against one breakaway. Yes we're going in front!
What? Why has the ref stopped the game? Why is he giving Enfield a penalty? Why is Dave Richards being sent off? The answer being that he thumped an opponent in the penalty area & instead of being one up we're one down.
Final score was 6-0! |
Before he became a bitter old man, Danny Baker did a fab phone in about what if someone with a prosthetic leg somehow loosened it, took a swing, it flew off and hit an opponent in the box. Wheres the free kick/ penalty given? | |
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| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 09:00 - Nov 3 with 707 views | francisbowles |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 17:25 - Nov 2 by Antti_Heinola |
Before he became a bitter old man, Danny Baker did a fab phone in about what if someone with a prosthetic leg somehow loosened it, took a swing, it flew off and hit an opponent in the box. Wheres the free kick/ penalty given? |
If I was hit in the box by a prosthetic then I would want a penalty but I might need about ten minutes before I could take it.  | | | |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 09:11 - Nov 3 with 704 views | derbyhoop |
| You are the Ref - Q for PinnerPaul on 19:24 - Nov 1 by paulhoop2 |
I’ve got one can a kit man or physio or doctor be sent off or yellow carded like a coach can ? |
I was watching Buckingham Athlwtic on Saturday and the physio got a yellow. At the end of a fracas when 1 of the Buckingham players got caught in the face. I think it was for encroaching without ref's permission. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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