| Match thread: Accrington home 14:03 - Nov 24 with 24297 views | 442Dale |
Lillis in. Welch and Conroy must be injured. |  |
| |  |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 19:12 - Nov 26 with 2036 views | TVOS1907 |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 15:47 - Nov 26 by dingdangblue |
Yes it's bad PR and totally unavoidable - Hill is a complex character so it's hard to fathom out why he feels the need to say what he says at times. It's only a week ago he was publicly slating Brendan Moore! "too quick to criticise - too slow to support"!?! [Post edited 26 Nov 2018 15:56]
|
How is it "totally unavoidable"? |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
| |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 19:42 - Nov 26 with 1992 views | DaleiLama |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 21:16 - Nov 25 by D_Alien |
It really is a case of "Better the devil you know"
It's fine to pose the question, refreshing even, but past experience suggests taking that step will just as likely result in a downward spiral as an upward one
I posted a few days ago about the club settling for stability and relative financial security rather than any intention to push towards the championship; not that that couldn't happen, but it wouldn't be either at the forefront of planning or any issue if it doesn't
The same applies to the fanbase. It's good to see upwards of 2500+ now attending on a regular basis due to the ST sales but the idea that the club exists to entertain us just isn't a priority, or even considered at all. Attractive, winning football has taken second place to maintaining finances through the production line of young talent (or young talent acquired from elsewhere) whilst providing a reasonable standard of football within which they can grow. I firmly believe that's what motivates Keith Hill nowadays, and the reasoning behind his attitude to fans who display quite normal fan behaviour, which to him will come across as neanderthal, irrational and counterproductive |
Been thinking about this post for a good part of the day (one of the best aspects of this forum - different opinions which give different perspectives) whilst driving around in between work. Now sat in the Minerva in Hull Marina with a pint of Twisted Rider, and here's my twopennorth. I have thought of Dale as a selling club ever since Hilly started working his magic. I know we sold before then, but mainly out of necessity rather than a revenue stream and business model as you suggested (and I tend towards).
I certainly know you are not stating that this model and success on the pitch are mutually exclusive. What I never considered, however, is that ambition could be given such a relatively low priority that it could become secondary to fiscal success. We have to survive - that's clear. I would, however, hope that CD, KH and to a lesser extent JM, the new recruit, would still retain the passion that drew them (and us) to football in the first place and this would drive them to strive to target success as being at least as important as balancing the books (though the way we play sometimes doesn't support this). The memory of seeing CD and KH (separately) celebrating SD's equaliser will go with me to the grave. The heart vs. the head arguement.
One final comment. Success on the pitch actually enhances the business model. It encourages talent in and gives it a better stage on which to shine (and for young players like Dan And Luke etc. to get their deserved payday).
I think the next 18 months will be at least as defining as the last for the future of the club. We have talent aplenty coming through so what will the ambition associated with that talent be? Never a dull moment to be sure. |  |
| |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 20:06 - Nov 26 with 1953 views | kiwidale |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 19:42 - Nov 26 by DaleiLama |
Been thinking about this post for a good part of the day (one of the best aspects of this forum - different opinions which give different perspectives) whilst driving around in between work. Now sat in the Minerva in Hull Marina with a pint of Twisted Rider, and here's my twopennorth. I have thought of Dale as a selling club ever since Hilly started working his magic. I know we sold before then, but mainly out of necessity rather than a revenue stream and business model as you suggested (and I tend towards).
I certainly know you are not stating that this model and success on the pitch are mutually exclusive. What I never considered, however, is that ambition could be given such a relatively low priority that it could become secondary to fiscal success. We have to survive - that's clear. I would, however, hope that CD, KH and to a lesser extent JM, the new recruit, would still retain the passion that drew them (and us) to football in the first place and this would drive them to strive to target success as being at least as important as balancing the books (though the way we play sometimes doesn't support this). The memory of seeing CD and KH (separately) celebrating SD's equaliser will go with me to the grave. The heart vs. the head arguement.
One final comment. Success on the pitch actually enhances the business model. It encourages talent in and gives it a better stage on which to shine (and for young players like Dan And Luke etc. to get their deserved payday).
I think the next 18 months will be at least as defining as the last for the future of the club. We have talent aplenty coming through so what will the ambition associated with that talent be? Never a dull moment to be sure. |
Ambition is relative its doesn't have to be championship or failure. We have had top ten finishes that were seen as hugely successful. Why cant success allow for the football we have had under Hill in the past instead of the turgid stuff at present where wins are seen as being hard fought and ground out. I remember when the phrase "footballed to death" was used regularly on here so what happened.
A question have we got a better squad now than when we was playing free flowing football that was recognised by home and opposition fans? |  |
| This is not the time for bickering.
|
| |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 20:16 - Nov 26 with 1923 views | D_Alien |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 19:42 - Nov 26 by DaleiLama |
Been thinking about this post for a good part of the day (one of the best aspects of this forum - different opinions which give different perspectives) whilst driving around in between work. Now sat in the Minerva in Hull Marina with a pint of Twisted Rider, and here's my twopennorth. I have thought of Dale as a selling club ever since Hilly started working his magic. I know we sold before then, but mainly out of necessity rather than a revenue stream and business model as you suggested (and I tend towards).
I certainly know you are not stating that this model and success on the pitch are mutually exclusive. What I never considered, however, is that ambition could be given such a relatively low priority that it could become secondary to fiscal success. We have to survive - that's clear. I would, however, hope that CD, KH and to a lesser extent JM, the new recruit, would still retain the passion that drew them (and us) to football in the first place and this would drive them to strive to target success as being at least as important as balancing the books (though the way we play sometimes doesn't support this). The memory of seeing CD and KH (separately) celebrating SD's equaliser will go with me to the grave. The heart vs. the head arguement.
One final comment. Success on the pitch actually enhances the business model. It encourages talent in and gives it a better stage on which to shine (and for young players like Dan And Luke etc. to get their deserved payday).
I think the next 18 months will be at least as defining as the last for the future of the club. We have talent aplenty coming through so what will the ambition associated with that talent be? Never a dull moment to be sure. |
Good post. Having sampled some of Elland's Winterfell today, i'm inclined to agree that success on the pitch isn't secondary to financial success, but that the former won't become achievable without the latter. In other words, first things first, and not putting finances at risk through seeking promotion without a very stable balance sheet (no comments please from finance "experts" if the terminology isn't bang on)
It's probably impossible to try to maintain stable positioning in a league such as L1 without constantly striving to improve the game plan. We probably got the balance wrong last season but have improved and i've no doubt the passion you refer to still exists. But that can be expressed in different ways and i'd be surprised if KH hasn't rationalised how far Dale could be taken up the pyramid (not much further) and how to mitigate that against his own ambitions around nurturing young talent
None of the above, or in my previous posts, is a criticism of the club so much as an attempt to rationalise why KH reacts the way he does towards fans. The psychology of individuals in such situations fascinates me - maybe even more than the actual performances. I've never claimed that was normal! |  |
| |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 20:55 - Nov 26 with 1831 views | soulboy |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 11:37 - Nov 26 by SuddenLad |
Keith Hill has laid down the basis for how every team at every level of the club plays, whether at academy level or 1st team.
He has recruited staff, and excellent staff it has to be said, who will implement his ideas, plans, methods etc, to allow the juniors/youth/academy staff to progress through to the first team.
If you look at Dan Adshead, Luke Mathieson or any other youngster who has played in the Checkatrade matches, (for those who could be bothered to attend) they are all products of the methods employed and instilled by Keith Hill, which permeates through to all playing levels. Almost everyone, without exception is complimentary about the way they are progressing and the likelihood that they will all progress to better things.
That's what Keith Hill is responsible for. Players come here either to the first team or academy BECAUSE of Keith Hill. If you looked at the two managers in the dugouts last Saturday, we saw the polar opposites of what we want at this club.
Keith Hill is not and never will be a media man. It's not his 'bag'. I always see him as very uncomfortable in front of a camera and he is a sucker for falling for the bait. Unless the club send him for professional media coaching more of the same will continue. As it always has.
The Keith Hill who appears on the pitchside prior to kick-off and dduring games on matchdays is friendly, joking with staff, approachable by supporters for selfies and autographs and chats with photographers, opposition staff et.al. He is in his 'own environment' and comfortable.
He's not here to be a PR man. A few weeks ago, he said in an interview that he thought this club was on the verge of something very special in terms of the future products reaching first team maturity and beyond. Since then, we have seen Dan Adshead picked for his (fantastic) England debut, the recent Youth Cup v MK Dons match saw several scouts in the stand poring their eyes over the Dale players on view, whilst Keith Hill watched his proteges from the Directors Box.
I haven't been bothered by anything he says post-match. It's largely irrelevant. So what if he calls Spotland a library ? It is. It's not like he's making it up. Who cares what other supporters do, what songs they sing or for how long ? Dale supporters are pretty vocal at away games. Except on big match days, Spotland has never been a particularly vocal place.
Instead of looking for criticism to throw at the manager and what seem to be petty gripes about his comments, why not concentrate on the bigger picture ?
Read the article in the Sun today about Dan Adshead to realise just how far this club has developed and grown in stature under this manager. We might have stuttered a bit in the League, but bloody hell, give me League One football against some decent teams as opposed to what became of Stockport, Torquay, Orient, Hartlepool or Chesterfield.
Keith Hill once said before fixture that we should aspire to be an established League One club, like Orient (then) were. Until they sacked Russell Slade that is, because a change of Directors demanded it, with no regard for the consequences, or the stability of the club.
Managers sacked on a whim, replaced multiple times and the situation deteriorating at every change. Disaster usually follows.
Give me what we've got. All day long. |
I agree 100%, Sudden. Its almost frightening some people on here constantly find fault with KH, either what he says, how he says it or his team management but between them have failed to come up with just one suitable replacement. |  | | |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 21:12 - Nov 26 with 1769 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 13:16 - Nov 26 by aleanddale |
Seriously what is your expectation of the season and what the club can achieve?.
Do you think in those 8 games we have a divine right to have won 1-0 and be sat at the top of the table with 47 points?
we will lose, we will concede, we will make mistakes and on occasions we will concede 3/4/5 ( sometimes at home )!!
Reality needs to bite - we are doing amazingly well as a club and it would be dull as dishwater if we were the finished article. |
How would cutting out most errors, and winning more games be dull? |  |
| |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 21:14 - Nov 26 with 1762 views | fitzochris |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 20:55 - Nov 26 by soulboy |
I agree 100%, Sudden. Its almost frightening some people on here constantly find fault with KH, either what he says, how he says it or his team management but between them have failed to come up with just one suitable replacement. |
There’s a difference between finding fault in what he says and wanting him replaced. A big difference. |  |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Match thread: Accrington home on 21:25 - Nov 26 with 1722 views | soulboy |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 21:14 - Nov 26 by fitzochris |
There’s a difference between finding fault in what he says and wanting him replaced. A big difference. |
Im aware of that, it doesnt alter the fact that some "supporters" want him replaced. | | | |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 21:28 - Nov 26 with 1714 views | sweetcorn |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 20:06 - Nov 26 by kiwidale |
Ambition is relative its doesn't have to be championship or failure. We have had top ten finishes that were seen as hugely successful. Why cant success allow for the football we have had under Hill in the past instead of the turgid stuff at present where wins are seen as being hard fought and ground out. I remember when the phrase "footballed to death" was used regularly on here so what happened.
A question have we got a better squad now than when we was playing free flowing football that was recognised by home and opposition fans? |
You need the players to play that style of football.. we’ve sold or lost 3 players who every club in league one would miss (Lund, Allen and NML) and have struggled to replace them.
Given our finances, near enough every player we sign is a gamble to some extent, because we can’t go out and sign the finished article to allow us to play a particular style, so we have to delve into the bargain bucket and hope a manager somewhere was missing a trick with that player.
For the most part Hill’s recruitment has been great over his two tenures, however the last 2 seasons haven’t been great, but no one can expect Hill to keep pulling rabbits out of the hat in the transfer window. |  |
| Leader of the little gang of immature cretins. |
| |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 21:28 - Nov 26 with 1711 views | isitme |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 20:06 - Nov 26 by kiwidale |
Ambition is relative its doesn't have to be championship or failure. We have had top ten finishes that were seen as hugely successful. Why cant success allow for the football we have had under Hill in the past instead of the turgid stuff at present where wins are seen as being hard fought and ground out. I remember when the phrase "footballed to death" was used regularly on here so what happened.
A question have we got a better squad now than when we was playing free flowing football that was recognised by home and opposition fans? |
I would say that we have a better squad, but maybe not necessarily a better starting line up, or not a first eleven that is consistently better than what we have had in the past. One thing that has been missed is that even in the past couple of seasons the standard of player in league one has improved. With the number of overseas players increasing in the Championship, better English players have tricked down into League One and the route for some better League One players has been blocked. The average wage budget has also increased. Even ours has supposedly increased by 30% this season, hence the increased depth.
Personally I would be looking at a smaller squad, but of a better quality, supplemented by greater opportunities for the younger players. I suspect the likes of McNulty, Perkins and Wilbraham will be on a good wage, yet none would feature in most people's starting line ups. |  | | |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 21:37 - Nov 26 with 1673 views | James1980 |
From my tiny mind.
How hard would it be for Hilly to say he understands fans are frustrated with performances this season and that he is as well. But negativity isn't going to help, look at where we were and where we have come. | |
| |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 21:55 - Nov 26 with 1627 views | funkkk |
I wonder if there has ever been a fan base in football history with such a large percentage thinking the manager's a dick but not wanting him to leave. |  | | |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 22:14 - Nov 26 with 1585 views | DaleiLama |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 20:06 - Nov 26 by kiwidale |
Ambition is relative its doesn't have to be championship or failure. We have had top ten finishes that were seen as hugely successful. Why cant success allow for the football we have had under Hill in the past instead of the turgid stuff at present where wins are seen as being hard fought and ground out. I remember when the phrase "footballed to death" was used regularly on here so what happened.
A question have we got a better squad now than when we was playing free flowing football that was recognised by home and opposition fans? |
I agree that it should be possible to play well and develop players. Indeed if you have a current (u18) England International breaking into the team and a FB who may be even better, success ought to follow.
As Sweetcorn and Isitme alluded to later on in the thread, one of the things that KH has had an almost incomparable record at is unearthing or developing diamonds and built really good complementary teams. Now he has a bigger squad but not (yet) a better team. He did it (built good teams) too often in the past for it to be good luck. But he set a precedent which has led to an expectation in some people's eyes. I include myself in this as I am perhaps guilty - you are only as good as your record says you are - not as good as you think you are.
Our record sees us as a bottom half team. I see us as a top half team and feel we ought to be challenging at the fringes of the play-offs each year rather than avoiding relegation. It's not dissimilar to games we have dominated but not won. You have to take advantage of your opportunities. Otherwise it's all fools gold and you are another also ran. Don't know about you, but I am a long way from giving up! | |
| |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 22:23 - Nov 26 with 1564 views | DaleiLama |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 20:16 - Nov 26 by D_Alien |
Good post. Having sampled some of Elland's Winterfell today, i'm inclined to agree that success on the pitch isn't secondary to financial success, but that the former won't become achievable without the latter. In other words, first things first, and not putting finances at risk through seeking promotion without a very stable balance sheet (no comments please from finance "experts" if the terminology isn't bang on)
It's probably impossible to try to maintain stable positioning in a league such as L1 without constantly striving to improve the game plan. We probably got the balance wrong last season but have improved and i've no doubt the passion you refer to still exists. But that can be expressed in different ways and i'd be surprised if KH hasn't rationalised how far Dale could be taken up the pyramid (not much further) and how to mitigate that against his own ambitions around nurturing young talent
None of the above, or in my previous posts, is a criticism of the club so much as an attempt to rationalise why KH reacts the way he does towards fans. The psychology of individuals in such situations fascinates me - maybe even more than the actual performances. I've never claimed that was normal! |
I share your fascination with the psychology of it all. Hilly alluded to that side of the job in the interview DDB posted. As an analogy, the psychology of coaching US footy players could be referenced. Nick Saban came to coach my pro-team and failed dismally. He's has unparalleled success in college football. The mindset of an aspiring athlete, who has not yet been paid until he turns pro, compared to a multimillionaire NFL player, is miles apart. I s'pose like a PL vs L1 footy player. Or an Alby vs. a Morley/Dan/Luke. Different psychologies, different pressures, different goals, different motivations. You can say what you like about Keith Hill but he usually works his players bloody hard, gets good results and not so many have a bad word for him. I've never been a man manager but that can't be easy! [Post edited 26 Nov 2018 22:28]
| |
| |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 00:13 - Nov 27 with 1454 views | James1980 |
Simple question have we been sussed out by the opposition coaches? | |
| |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 02:50 - Nov 27 with 1390 views | AussieDale |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 20:55 - Nov 26 by soulboy |
I agree 100%, Sudden. Its almost frightening some people on here constantly find fault with KH, either what he says, how he says it or his team management but between them have failed to come up with just one suitable replacement. |
Best post I've seen on here in ages Sudden. | | | |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 06:05 - Nov 27 with 1331 views | richfoad32 |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 00:13 - Nov 27 by James1980 |
Simple question have we been sussed out by the opposition coaches? |
It doesn't take a football genius to 'suss' us out, any opposing team just has to be organised and fit enough to press the defensive line as soon as Lillis/Moore/Norman bowls it out to them. Either we play it around for 2 minutes without threatening to cross the halfway line or one of the centre halves is harassed into just aimlessly lumping it forward, which they could easily have done initially. It might be an admirable way to try and play but I'm just not sure we have the personnel to do it. I don't know what the problem is with mixing it up and going more direct anyway, we looked instantly more threatening with the introduction of Calvin on Saturday and the second half against Scunnny when we just went for it and bombarded them was possibly the most exciting of the season. 'Hoofball' has its place. | | | |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 08:55 - Nov 27 with 1214 views | dingdangblue |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 00:13 - Nov 27 by James1980 |
Simple question have we been sussed out by the opposition coaches? |
Whoever has sussed Hilly out is a f@cking genius. |  |
| |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 09:16 - Nov 27 with 1191 views | Scunnydale |
| Match thread: Accrington home on 14:54 - Nov 26 by dingdangblue |
Im not sure you are a typical example though with your media background - I doubt many Dale fans get emails or messages about Keith Hill's comments? As way of a balance here is his official post match views which are very sensible and honest - rather than some Manc Radio agenda to wind Hill up.
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2018/november/interview-keithhillpostaccringt [Post edited 26 Nov 2018 14:55]
|
Last time it happened and got picked up by the BBC, I got a fair few messages. These were from supporters of Premier League teams who rarely look below Leeds (to laugh) in the pyramid. They know little of Rochdale other than, as Fitz said, we took Spurs to a replay. They then 'knew' we have fans who hate the guy who is, by far and away, our greatest manager. |  | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
