| Hama and Israel -again 09:39 - May 12 with 5898 views | onehunglow |
The story goes on and on.
Both harking back to Biblical times claiming lands as their own bequeathed to them by a God that has overseen billions killed in his name .
Both intransigent ,both unrelenting,both unforgiving, both cause celebres for countries that should have nothing to do with either side.
Where is your loving God?
[Post edited 12 May 2021 9:40]
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| Hama and Israel -again on 21:17 - May 16 with 797 views | Catullus |
| Hama and Israel -again on 17:00 - May 16 by KeithHaynes |
What these threads need are less opinion and more discussion without any personal point of view.
It’s a step up I know. |
Isn't every debate based around people's points of view. If I don't have an opinion about something I don't post on the thread, it's kinda how it works. | |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 21:17 - May 16 with 797 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Hama and Israel -again on 21:11 - May 16 by trampie |
Politics or King David's hotel bombing or the Sergeants killings all years before never came into it for you back then did it ? [Post edited 16 May 2021 22:03]
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I worked with people from around the world, many people who were employed on the kibbutz were Arabs we all got on brilliantly. We drank tea in cafes in Gaza no one blinked an eye. Middle East history is long and complicated the ordinary people are fine and genetically identical. |  |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 21:21 - May 16 with 776 views | trampie |
| Hama and Israel -again on 21:17 - May 16 by JACKMANANDBOY |
I worked with people from around the world, many people who were employed on the kibbutz were Arabs we all got on brilliantly. We drank tea in cafes in Gaza no one blinked an eye. Middle East history is long and complicated the ordinary people are fine and genetically identical. |
That is all well and good but to actually go there after what Israeli terrorist organisations had done to British people including civilians I would have thought was a bold move. |  |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 21:26 - May 16 with 769 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Hama and Israel -again on 21:21 - May 16 by trampie |
That is all well and good but to actually go there after what Israeli terrorist organisations had done to British people including civilians I would have thought was a bold move. |
Worked in Belfast during the troubles, people were great, what we get told does not match real life. People have to live. Fatah are looking for peace and a two state solution Hammas ght now are in political pressure. Fatah not getting s look in..... | |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 21:34 - May 16 with 741 views | trampie |
| Hama and Israel -again on 21:26 - May 16 by JACKMANANDBOY |
Worked in Belfast during the troubles, people were great, what we get told does not match real life. People have to live. Fatah are looking for peace and a two state solution Hammas ght now are in political pressure. Fatah not getting s look in..... |
I've no doubt people are people and have more in common with each other than they often realise. | |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 21:35 - May 16 with 747 views | Catullus |
| Hama and Israel -again on 21:21 - May 16 by trampie |
That is all well and good but to actually go there after what Israeli terrorist organisations had done to British people including civilians I would have thought was a bold move. |
Any terrorist organisation will say there's going to be collateral damage. Look at ISIS, they didn't care how many Muslims they killed saying they would all be martyrs. | |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 21:50 - May 16 with 728 views | Jack123 |
| Hama and Israel -again on 21:38 - May 16 by Groo |
There you go, It wasn't shown on that map as its to the right.
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Wow look at the Gaza, right by the sea, they need to stop the fighting. A good few hotels and theme parks, they could do better than Spain for a destination. |  |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 22:11 - May 16 with 703 views | trampie |
| Hama and Israel -again on 21:35 - May 16 by Catullus |
Any terrorist organisation will say there's going to be collateral damage. Look at ISIS, they didn't care how many Muslims they killed saying they would all be martyrs. |
I don't know what you mean by collateral damage in this context. [Post edited 16 May 2021 22:58]
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| Hama and Israel -again on 22:59 - May 16 with 674 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Hama and Israel -again on 21:38 - May 16 by Groo |
There you go, It wasn't shown on that map as its to the right.
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The history here is very complicated but the establishment of Trans Jordan as an independent Arab state was seen as a counterbalance to establishing a Jewish State in the Balfour agreement. In establishing Jordan a huge area of land was allocated regardless of its history, some of it was historically Hebrew land.
So there was an intention to establish a two state solution. | |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 23:44 - May 16 with 651 views | Groo |
| Hama and Israel -again on 22:59 - May 16 by JACKMANANDBOY |
The history here is very complicated but the establishment of Trans Jordan as an independent Arab state was seen as a counterbalance to establishing a Jewish State in the Balfour agreement. In establishing Jordan a huge area of land was allocated regardless of its history, some of it was historically Hebrew land.
So there was an intention to establish a two state solution. |
The white bit on the left was not intended to be Israel, part of it was supposed to be Israel.
The issue for good old colonial Britain was trying to keep both sides happy, trying to give one side which contained about 35% of the population 65% of the land. Obviously the ones who had been living there since the Roman's left were not too happy.
Jewish immigration started in the early 1900's, to stop the locals from being too upset, the British, who took over the colonial reign from the Ottoman Empire after WWI restricted the immigration to 100,000 a year.
The Jewish contingent didn't like this, especially after WWII , so turned to terrorist action to take far more than the promised 65% of the land.
Since then they continue to push out, not able to contain the internal birthrate and immigration, they expand, removing the local people by force.
It doesn't make HAMAS actions correct, but at the end of the day, no-one helps the people there, Israel gets support across the World for heinous actions. |  |
| Groo does what Groo does best |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 09:01 - May 17 with 595 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Hama and Israel -again on 23:44 - May 16 by Groo |
The white bit on the left was not intended to be Israel, part of it was supposed to be Israel.
The issue for good old colonial Britain was trying to keep both sides happy, trying to give one side which contained about 35% of the population 65% of the land. Obviously the ones who had been living there since the Roman's left were not too happy.
Jewish immigration started in the early 1900's, to stop the locals from being too upset, the British, who took over the colonial reign from the Ottoman Empire after WWI restricted the immigration to 100,000 a year.
The Jewish contingent didn't like this, especially after WWII , so turned to terrorist action to take far more than the promised 65% of the land.
Since then they continue to push out, not able to contain the internal birthrate and immigration, they expand, removing the local people by force.
It doesn't make HAMAS actions correct, but at the end of the day, no-one helps the people there, Israel gets support across the World for heinous actions. |
The division of land was about the maintenance of colonial powers of which Britian and France were major players than appeasing any indiginous group.
The rhetoric of too many Jews breeding too quickly is that of the 1930s and is obviously rascist (try replacing the word Jew with Black). To see this as a Jewish problem after WW2 when their numbers had been reduced from 9.5 million to around 3.5 million In Europe, ignores the previous history, just go back 30 years and there's a different picture, go back 100 years etc. etc. | |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 09:09 - May 17 with 593 views | onehunglow |
Briefly,it is about both sides accepting history has left this region fractured and why they need to move on and accept that .
Israel should accept what it has as its orders now and the Palestinians need to agree Israel has a right to exist. | |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 09:22 - May 17 with 591 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Hama and Israel -again on 09:09 - May 17 by onehunglow |
Briefly,it is about both sides accepting history has left this region fractured and why they need to move on and accept that .
Israel should accept what it has as its orders now and the Palestinians need to agree Israel has a right to exist. |
Fatah recognises Israel and wants peace and a two state solution, Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel, there is a political impasse in Palestine which coincides with what we see today.
In our media Fatah gets no coverage? | |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 10:05 - May 17 with 569 views | Catullus |
| Hama and Israel -again on 22:11 - May 16 by trampie |
I don't know what you mean by collateral damage in this context. [Post edited 16 May 2021 22:58]
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Really? It means anything or anyone caught in the attack that wasn't the target.
Simply, if a terrorist tries to blow up an army vehicle and a school bus gets caught in the blast, the bus is collateral damage. | |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 11:49 - May 17 with 549 views | Ajack_Kerouac |
Israel has been Hebrew land for thousands of years.
They have been attacked and driven out by the Romans and the Muslims, yet still they have continuously occupied this area and suffered all kinds of disgusting treatment...because it is their homeland! Because it is the home of all of their holiest sites!
Islam was the cultural arm of an Arab Empire. Lefties are supposed to despise empires aren't they?
Lefties are supposed to despise genocide and the displacement of people aren't they?
When anti-semitism was on the rise in 19th century Europe a movement among Jews to return to Israel and fight for it, to defend those that had remained and suffered so much under Arab rule, began.
This movement accelerated and gained strength over the first 20 years of the 20th century.
Muslim Arabs who wanted out of the Ottoman Empire and wanted the creation of their own kingdoms (so they could get rich from the oil under the deserts rather than the Turks) cut a deal with the British Empire during WWI to help us defeat the Ottoman Empire (Who had sided with the Germans).
We helped them, they helped us.
Part of the deal was the formation of the state of Israel.
The Arabs got what they wanted (their kingdoms with descendents of 'the prophet' on the thrones...the oil money!) from us and then refused to recognise Israel.
They welched on the deal.
There followed years of Britain negotiating between the Jews and the Arabs (in effect we did the Arabs bidding, putting the Jews who were angry about the deal not being stuck to, off.
Promising them we would come good and hand over 'Palestine' to them one day ('Palestine' was the Roman word for the Hebrew lands, there had never been a state called Palestine).
Following WWII the Jews who survived the Holocaust poured into Israel, determined to fight for their own patch of land...now though the politics on Britain and USA's side were easier, it was hard to argue against the Jews right to their homeland given the recent holocaust.
The Arabs reacted by invading Israel again and again, promising to wipe Israel off the map, all of the new Arab states (that existed only because of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire) ganged up on Israel.
Again and again Israel won unlikely, heroic, victories.
The Left in Europe and America can hector Israel all they want. Israel has learnt not to trust you. Israel has learnt that in this world if you don't stand up for yourself there is always a pack of absolute b'stards waiting to take advantage of you.
The Arabs want to fire rockets? Israel will make sure they pay.
The Arabs want to start a war? Israel will win that war and they are playing for keeps.
Arabs are treated better in Israel than any Jews or Christians are treated in Arab countries. Now or in history.
Still they insist that Israel has no right to exist. That the Jewish people should not have their own state, that the Jewish lands that were taken from them by force are not allowed to be taken back by Israel, using force.
...and the Left in this country, as usual are on the wrong side. [Post edited 17 May 2021 11:58]
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| "It's what people know about themselves inside that makes them afraid" - "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - "The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it" |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 11:58 - May 17 with 538 views | trampie |
| Hama and Israel -again on 10:05 - May 17 by Catullus |
Really? It means anything or anyone caught in the attack that wasn't the target.
Simply, if a terrorist tries to blow up an army vehicle and a school bus gets caught in the blast, the bus is collateral damage. |
The British were the target mun, I thought you didn't get it. | |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 14:25 - May 17 with 503 views | Groo |
The problem with Israel is Israel continues to expand, backing settlers who move into Palestinian districts forcing the local people out.
I agree on the definition of HAMAS, that does not excuse the expansion.
If Israel did not continuously provoke then HAMAS wouldn't have the excuse. What we see is literally David against Goliath, only this time David is not Jewish.
The result as always is innocent people paying the price, how many children have died in the Israeli's air strikes? | |
| Groo does what Groo does best |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 14:51 - May 17 with 497 views | Groo |
| Hama and Israel -again on 11:49 - May 17 by Ajack_Kerouac |
Israel has been Hebrew land for thousands of years.
They have been attacked and driven out by the Romans and the Muslims, yet still they have continuously occupied this area and suffered all kinds of disgusting treatment...because it is their homeland! Because it is the home of all of their holiest sites!
Islam was the cultural arm of an Arab Empire. Lefties are supposed to despise empires aren't they?
Lefties are supposed to despise genocide and the displacement of people aren't they?
When anti-semitism was on the rise in 19th century Europe a movement among Jews to return to Israel and fight for it, to defend those that had remained and suffered so much under Arab rule, began.
This movement accelerated and gained strength over the first 20 years of the 20th century.
Muslim Arabs who wanted out of the Ottoman Empire and wanted the creation of their own kingdoms (so they could get rich from the oil under the deserts rather than the Turks) cut a deal with the British Empire during WWI to help us defeat the Ottoman Empire (Who had sided with the Germans).
We helped them, they helped us.
Part of the deal was the formation of the state of Israel.
The Arabs got what they wanted (their kingdoms with descendents of 'the prophet' on the thrones...the oil money!) from us and then refused to recognise Israel.
They welched on the deal.
There followed years of Britain negotiating between the Jews and the Arabs (in effect we did the Arabs bidding, putting the Jews who were angry about the deal not being stuck to, off.
Promising them we would come good and hand over 'Palestine' to them one day ('Palestine' was the Roman word for the Hebrew lands, there had never been a state called Palestine).
Following WWII the Jews who survived the Holocaust poured into Israel, determined to fight for their own patch of land...now though the politics on Britain and USA's side were easier, it was hard to argue against the Jews right to their homeland given the recent holocaust.
The Arabs reacted by invading Israel again and again, promising to wipe Israel off the map, all of the new Arab states (that existed only because of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire) ganged up on Israel.
Again and again Israel won unlikely, heroic, victories.
The Left in Europe and America can hector Israel all they want. Israel has learnt not to trust you. Israel has learnt that in this world if you don't stand up for yourself there is always a pack of absolute b'stards waiting to take advantage of you.
The Arabs want to fire rockets? Israel will make sure they pay.
The Arabs want to start a war? Israel will win that war and they are playing for keeps.
Arabs are treated better in Israel than any Jews or Christians are treated in Arab countries. Now or in history.
Still they insist that Israel has no right to exist. That the Jewish people should not have their own state, that the Jewish lands that were taken from them by force are not allowed to be taken back by Israel, using force.
...and the Left in this country, as usual are on the wrong side. [Post edited 17 May 2021 11:58]
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What, you believe it belongs to them because its their land historically?
There were two Jewish Kingdoms, the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah.
The Kingdom of Israel existing for a blink of an eye in historic terms.
From abut 900 to 700BC during the Iron Age, let me repeat that, THE IRON AGE!! It was destroyed by the Assyrian Empire.
Judah was invaded by Persians, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece before the Romans tipped up. After that the Byzatine Empire, the rise of Islam, then the real killers, the Crusaders. The Jewish communities fought against the Crusaders side by side with the Muslims.
From about 500BC until the 1920's the Jewish population was limited to a small number of communities, 10% of the population counted during the last Ottoman Empire census of the area.
So I'm interested, what other regions of the World should be reverted to as it was in the Iron Age, I believe the Beaker People should take the UK.
As for British involvement, Britain took control after WWI, a 30 year period at the dying end of the Empire. I fully agree the British at that time had selfish reasons regarding control of oil but even without that they would have been between a rock and a hard place. | |
| Groo does what Groo does best |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 14:56 - May 17 with 489 views | controversial_jack |
| Hama and Israel -again on 14:51 - May 17 by Groo |
What, you believe it belongs to them because its their land historically?
There were two Jewish Kingdoms, the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah.
The Kingdom of Israel existing for a blink of an eye in historic terms.
From abut 900 to 700BC during the Iron Age, let me repeat that, THE IRON AGE!! It was destroyed by the Assyrian Empire.
Judah was invaded by Persians, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece before the Romans tipped up. After that the Byzatine Empire, the rise of Islam, then the real killers, the Crusaders. The Jewish communities fought against the Crusaders side by side with the Muslims.
From about 500BC until the 1920's the Jewish population was limited to a small number of communities, 10% of the population counted during the last Ottoman Empire census of the area.
So I'm interested, what other regions of the World should be reverted to as it was in the Iron Age, I believe the Beaker People should take the UK.
As for British involvement, Britain took control after WWI, a 30 year period at the dying end of the Empire. I fully agree the British at that time had selfish reasons regarding control of oil but even without that they would have been between a rock and a hard place. |
i'm sure Britain was given control by the UN and didn't just take it. | | | |
| Hama and Israel -again on 16:24 - May 17 with 445 views | Ajack_Kerouac |
| Hama and Israel -again on 14:51 - May 17 by Groo |
What, you believe it belongs to them because its their land historically?
There were two Jewish Kingdoms, the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah.
The Kingdom of Israel existing for a blink of an eye in historic terms.
From abut 900 to 700BC during the Iron Age, let me repeat that, THE IRON AGE!! It was destroyed by the Assyrian Empire.
Judah was invaded by Persians, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece before the Romans tipped up. After that the Byzatine Empire, the rise of Islam, then the real killers, the Crusaders. The Jewish communities fought against the Crusaders side by side with the Muslims.
From about 500BC until the 1920's the Jewish population was limited to a small number of communities, 10% of the population counted during the last Ottoman Empire census of the area.
So I'm interested, what other regions of the World should be reverted to as it was in the Iron Age, I believe the Beaker People should take the UK.
As for British involvement, Britain took control after WWI, a 30 year period at the dying end of the Empire. I fully agree the British at that time had selfish reasons regarding control of oil but even without that they would have been between a rock and a hard place. |
Let's take your point seriously...
...so now the Jews have made a comeback and smashed the Arabs to restore their 'Kingdom'.
Nothing immoral, nothing unique in history. So the Left and the Arabs can belt up then can't they...or try and take it back. Be prepared to die though. | |
| "It's what people know about themselves inside that makes them afraid" - "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - "The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it" |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 16:41 - May 17 with 440 views | Groo |
| Hama and Israel -again on 16:24 - May 17 by Ajack_Kerouac |
Let's take your point seriously...
...so now the Jews have made a comeback and smashed the Arabs to restore their 'Kingdom'.
Nothing immoral, nothing unique in history. So the Left and the Arabs can belt up then can't they...or try and take it back. Be prepared to die though. |
Lets look at it another way.
Taking land by force, by war was once common.
That's been changing and the final nail being the formation of first the failed League of Nations and since WWII, the UN. International dispute's over land have a place to be fought, its called the International Court of Justice.
The Israeli's should stop encroaching and taking more land, maybe peace will come to the region if they maintained what they have and didn't take more.
I find it great in these forums to be called both left wing and right wing, depending on what s being argued at the time, I just like to be on the side of the right and justice.
I don't support HAMAS or their actions by the way, like any right minded person I feel for the ordinary people who are the victims, through no fault of their own.
Oh and Israeli's actions will no doubt lead to further bloodshed of innocents in the future. | |
| Groo does what Groo does best |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 16:51 - May 17 with 438 views | Ajack_Kerouac |
| Hama and Israel -again on 16:41 - May 17 by Groo |
Lets look at it another way.
Taking land by force, by war was once common.
That's been changing and the final nail being the formation of first the failed League of Nations and since WWII, the UN. International dispute's over land have a place to be fought, its called the International Court of Justice.
The Israeli's should stop encroaching and taking more land, maybe peace will come to the region if they maintained what they have and didn't take more.
I find it great in these forums to be called both left wing and right wing, depending on what s being argued at the time, I just like to be on the side of the right and justice.
I don't support HAMAS or their actions by the way, like any right minded person I feel for the ordinary people who are the victims, through no fault of their own.
Oh and Israeli's actions will no doubt lead to further bloodshed of innocents in the future. |
Ok until the end of your post.
The Palestinians fired the rockets first. They are responsible for the bloodshed therefore.. The Israeli's are defending their citizens.
The end.
The Palestinians have been offered a 2 state solution many times...they want it ALL.
It is for them to change. | |
| "It's what people know about themselves inside that makes them afraid" - "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - "The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it" |
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| Hama and Israel -again on 17:11 - May 27 with 310 views | trampie |
vivien burke #🌹🥀🇮🇪🇬🇧 🇵🇸🇪🇺 (@vivienburke) Tweeted: https://t.co/tkShblJTCA well done Ireland 🇮🇪 ðŸ‘ðŸ‘
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| Hama and Israel -again on 17:46 - May 27 with 294 views | Catullus |
| Hama and Israel -again on 11:58 - May 17 by trampie |
The British were the target mun, I thought you didn't get it. |
I was talkinga about terrorists, Israel, as far as I know isn't considered a terrorist organisation.
British citizens have died, ian Hook, James Miller, Tom Hurndall. An Israeli soldier was found guilty of manslaughter for the latter but Israel always denied the Brits were targetted.
So I'm sorry if I'm ill informed Trampie but you'll have to provide me with the evidence that Israel has or is targetting British people. | |
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