| Nationality and Borders Bill 18:26 - Dec 11 with 2940 views | Catullus |
We haven't heard very much about clause 9 of this Priti Patel bill but we should. It's a shocking, devious and underhand bit of politics.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/
There's a petition linked in the story. Everybody should sign it. |  |
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| Nationality and Borders Bi on 22:07 - Dec 14 with 988 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Nationality and Borders Bi on 22:02 - Dec 14 by Flashberryjack |
From what I can see the legal costs amount to over £30 million. |
Where did you read that ? Over how many years ? How many cases ? What were the government layers paid ? Were those cases successful?
They’re all important questions. Like when you hear ‘x murderer gets handed £y it’s nonsense |  | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 22:39 - Dec 14 with 972 views | Sirjohnalot |
Oh and they’re also intent on removing the right to elect Crown Court trial, meaning for everything but the most serious cases, you’ll be tried in front of 3 non legally qualfied people. | | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 23:19 - Dec 14 with 966 views | max936 |
Signed |  | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bi on 23:39 - Dec 14 with 958 views | majorraglan |
| Nationality and Borders Bi on 21:51 - Dec 14 by Sirjohnalot |
Human Rights isn’t my area, so I’m not sure how it’s funded. Let’s say it is legally aided which means the fees would be low. Isn’t it worth it if someone is being illegally deported against international law, possibly being sent back to die ? As far as how much are we paying for those who don’t get the advice ? Well, it’s nothing as they didn’t have a lawyer.
The only reason they don’t like it is because they know they’re breaking the law and they know it There’s no ‘spurious actions’ as if there were they’d be struck out. The myth about someone not being deported because they have a cat eg, is a complete lie. Simply did not happen.
They’re also going after the Human Rights Act, which is dangerous for all of us. Patel is an appalling person.
Any government which attacks lawyers should make the public very wary. |
Good points and I agree with much of it. In a modern democratic society it’s a scandalous to think we could have secret legal processes where people are subject of proceedings they know nothing about.
I could live with small changes to the HRA, however most of the HRA should be completely out of bounds. Things I could support include making the right to a family life a qualified right which was dependent on being of good character, presence in the U.K. is non-conducive to the public good, danger to society, etc etc. The kind of people I’d be looking at removing would be murderers, sex offenders, drug dealers, violent offenders etc.
The Home Office doesn’t have a great record when it comes to immigration, deportation of criminals, management of borders and a few other things. They need to focus on doing their jobs more effectively instead of eroding the principles of justice and democracy. | | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bi on 00:06 - Dec 15 with 944 views | majorraglan |
| Nationality and Borders Bi on 23:39 - Dec 14 by majorraglan |
Good points and I agree with much of it. In a modern democratic society it’s a scandalous to think we could have secret legal processes where people are subject of proceedings they know nothing about.
I could live with small changes to the HRA, however most of the HRA should be completely out of bounds. Things I could support include making the right to a family life a qualified right which was dependent on being of good character, presence in the U.K. is non-conducive to the public good, danger to society, etc etc. The kind of people I’d be looking at removing would be murderers, sex offenders, drug dealers, violent offenders etc.
The Home Office doesn’t have a great record when it comes to immigration, deportation of criminals, management of borders and a few other things. They need to focus on doing their jobs more effectively instead of eroding the principles of justice and democracy. |
After posting the above and the below was the first article I saw. Comes to something when a watchdog and Statutory body takes the Governments to Court. aDir John is spot on.
https://www.theguardian.com/po | | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 09:00 - Dec 15 with 906 views | Catullus |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 21:58 - Dec 14 by felixstowe_jack |
Most of the criminals we need to deport have been found guilty in jury trials. If they are not British citizens and are convicted of serious crimes they should be deported once they have finished their sentence.
Victims and the safety of the public should be put first not the criminals. |
We're not talking about people who have been found guilty in court though, keep up mun. This bill gives the government the power to have secret courts where not even the accused know they are on trial.
If people have their day in a real court and are found guilty then we can and should deport them if they are not UK citizens. We should NOT be putting case through Kangaroo courts though. People should have the legal right to see and challenge the evidence against them.
It's about protecting the innocent and the rules of democracy and law and order. | |
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| Nationality and Borders Bill on 12:03 - Dec 15 with 899 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 09:00 - Dec 15 by Catullus |
We're not talking about people who have been found guilty in court though, keep up mun. This bill gives the government the power to have secret courts where not even the accused know they are on trial.
If people have their day in a real court and are found guilty then we can and should deport them if they are not UK citizens. We should NOT be putting case through Kangaroo courts though. People should have the legal right to see and challenge the evidence against them.
It's about protecting the innocent and the rules of democracy and law and order. |
Also people that receive 12 m custody are already subject to automatic deportation | | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 15:18 - Dec 15 with 855 views | Flashberryjack |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 12:03 - Dec 15 by Sirjohnalot |
Also people that receive 12 m custody are already subject to automatic deportation |
Good. |  |
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| Nationality and Borders Bill on 17:50 - Dec 15 with 842 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 12:03 - Dec 15 by Sirjohnalot |
Also people that receive 12 m custody are already subject to automatic deportation |
Should be lowered to any custodial sentence in my opinion. We should welcome good people from all around the world with the one condition that if you misbehave your welcome is revoked. | | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 19:38 - Dec 15 with 817 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 17:50 - Dec 15 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
Should be lowered to any custodial sentence in my opinion. We should welcome good people from all around the world with the one condition that if you misbehave your welcome is revoked. |
Not sure I agree with that but it’s a perfectly arguably and understandable point | | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 19:46 - Dec 15 with 814 views | majorraglan |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 12:03 - Dec 15 by Sirjohnalot |
Also people that receive 12 m custody are already subject to automatic deportation |
Not sure the HO is actually putting that in to practice though.
I suspect quite a few of the proposed changes are to address shortcomings at the HO. | | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 19:51 - Dec 15 with 813 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 19:38 - Dec 15 by Sirjohnalot |
Not sure I agree with that but it’s a perfectly arguably and understandable point |
If the likes of you and I and millions of others could go several lifetimes without doing something bad enough that results in a custodial sentence I’m sure the immigrants can too.
It shouldn’t be hard for people to avoid stealing, killing, being violent, dealing drugs etc. | | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 19:59 - Dec 15 with 812 views | Catullus |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 17:50 - Dec 15 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
Should be lowered to any custodial sentence in my opinion. We should welcome good people from all around the world with the one condition that if you misbehave your welcome is revoked. |
I think in New Zealand they have a 3 strikes rule (it may be Aus) which makes sense to me. However, that includes any crime, even non custodial.
An old workmate of mine had a family member who moved to NZ, he was caught speeding twice and warned that another one would see him sent back to the UK. That was a long time back and things may have changed. I find it a bit harsh but maybe fair, as long as it is applied to everybody equally. | |
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| Nationality and Borders Bill on 20:04 - Dec 15 with 807 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 19:59 - Dec 15 by Catullus |
I think in New Zealand they have a 3 strikes rule (it may be Aus) which makes sense to me. However, that includes any crime, even non custodial.
An old workmate of mine had a family member who moved to NZ, he was caught speeding twice and warned that another one would see him sent back to the UK. That was a long time back and things may have changed. I find it a bit harsh but maybe fair, as long as it is applied to everybody equally. |
That’s the thing, a custodial sentence of any nature usually is the result of quite a serious act of violence. It’s not much to ask to require people not to commit serious acts of violence upon each other. Or at least it shouldn’t be.
The three strikes thing I also agree with. As somebody who has never committed a single crime the thought of committing three is completely beyond me. | | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 21:06 - Dec 15 with 796 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 20:04 - Dec 15 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
That’s the thing, a custodial sentence of any nature usually is the result of quite a serious act of violence. It’s not much to ask to require people not to commit serious acts of violence upon each other. Or at least it shouldn’t be.
The three strikes thing I also agree with. As somebody who has never committed a single crime the thought of committing three is completely beyond me. |
It should be but it’s not. I’ve had kids from Care homes or as a result of being sexually assaulted end up on the streets and become persistent shoplifters and end up in prison or commit thefts to get off the streets.
Some of the back stories of some young kids who commit offences is heartbreaking | | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 08:35 - Dec 16 with 730 views | Catullus |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 21:06 - Dec 15 by Sirjohnalot |
It should be but it’s not. I’ve had kids from Care homes or as a result of being sexually assaulted end up on the streets and become persistent shoplifters and end up in prison or commit thefts to get off the streets.
Some of the back stories of some young kids who commit offences is heartbreaking |
How about Katie Price?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/c
5 previous convictions, driving whilst banned and under the influence of alcohol AND drugs and still she doesn't get prison time.
Honest question Sirjohn, did she only avoid prison because of her "fame" because I'm pretty certain that I'd have ended up inside before my 6th offence if I was drink and drugs influenced and crashed. | |
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| Nationality and Borders Bill on 09:15 - Dec 16 with 715 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 08:35 - Dec 16 by Catullus |
How about Katie Price?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/c
5 previous convictions, driving whilst banned and under the influence of alcohol AND drugs and still she doesn't get prison time.
Honest question Sirjohn, did she only avoid prison because of her "fame" because I'm pretty certain that I'd have ended up inside before my 6th offence if I was drink and drugs influenced and crashed. |
Her fame would have nothing to do with it, if anything It makes it worse (supposedly role model ?) The district judge here had no choice, she wanted to send her down but as the previous bench adjourned for her to attend a rehab unit which she completed successfully, her hands were tied.
This is pretty standard in these types of case, the law says that a suspended sentence should be given if there are reasonable prospects of rehabilitation, legally, she completed a rehab, the sentence was adjourned to test compliance, she compiled, she gets a suspended sentence. The sentence may also include supervision, unpaid work, working with the probation service on drink drugs. Any breach will be reneged to this judge, and she will lock her up.
Max she can get is 6 months, she entered a plea at the 1st hearing, so max is 4, she’d have served 2. No rehab, 8 weeks, court will see this as a tougher and more beneficial sentence to her and society. Also you would have innocent kids being without mum over Christmas,
I’m not commenting on her case as I wasn’t there, don’t know much about what happened, but that’s the line I’d have argued had I been representing her (subject to knowing more) | | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 09:16 - Dec 16 with 715 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 09:00 - Dec 15 by Catullus |
We're not talking about people who have been found guilty in court though, keep up mun. This bill gives the government the power to have secret courts where not even the accused know they are on trial.
If people have their day in a real court and are found guilty then we can and should deport them if they are not UK citizens. We should NOT be putting case through Kangaroo courts though. People should have the legal right to see and challenge the evidence against them.
It's about protecting the innocent and the rules of democracy and law and order. |
Of course we are we give immigrants the opportunity to better their lives and they abuse our hospitality committing serious crimes. Once they have completed their sentence they should be automatically deported. They can appeal from their home country as long as they fund their own legal costs.
Currently our human rights are clogging up the system with endless appeals at the tax payers expense. Would be better if these lawyers got proper jobs rather than becoming millionaires at the tax payers expense.
Once criminals know they consequences are deportation this might act as a deterrent. | |
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| Nationality and Borders Bill on 13:58 - Dec 17 with 664 views | Catullus |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 09:16 - Dec 16 by felixstowe_jack |
Of course we are we give immigrants the opportunity to better their lives and they abuse our hospitality committing serious crimes. Once they have completed their sentence they should be automatically deported. They can appeal from their home country as long as they fund their own legal costs.
Currently our human rights are clogging up the system with endless appeals at the tax payers expense. Would be better if these lawyers got proper jobs rather than becoming millionaires at the tax payers expense.
Once criminals know they consequences are deportation this might act as a deterrent. |
Ok then, so secret courts, secret judgements are all. people can be tried, found guilty and have punishment declared without them even having a clue they are on trial.
If that's a world you are happy to live in, maybe North Korea is the place for you. Justice should not just be done, it should be seen to be done.
As someone once put it, anybody who would give up some freedoms for some security deserves neither. | |
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| Nationality and Borders Bill on 16:34 - Dec 17 with 635 views | pencoedjack |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 13:58 - Dec 14 by Flashberryjack |
When we are struggling to deport murderers, rapists, drug dealers and many others that have entered the UK illegally, you really think that we are going to deport an NHS doctor that has been here since a child ?
This is headline shyte for the left and naive. |
Spot on 👠|  | | |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 17:04 - Dec 17 with 625 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 13:58 - Dec 17 by Catullus |
Ok then, so secret courts, secret judgements are all. people can be tried, found guilty and have punishment declared without them even having a clue they are on trial.
If that's a world you are happy to live in, maybe North Korea is the place for you. Justice should not just be done, it should be seen to be done.
As someone once put it, anybody who would give up some freedoms for some security deserves neither. |
All the criminals have been judged guilty in a UK Court of law, found guilty by jury.
Do you suppose people in North Korea, Russia, China, and any of the Middle East countries actually get a trial let alone a fair one. | |
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| Nationality and Borders Bill on 17:34 - Dec 17 with 617 views | Catullus |
| Nationality and Borders Bill on 17:04 - Dec 17 by felixstowe_jack |
All the criminals have been judged guilty in a UK Court of law, found guilty by jury.
Do you suppose people in North Korea, Russia, China, and any of the Middle East countries actually get a trial let alone a fair one. |
Again, we are not talking about people found guilty in a proper court, we are talking about secret hearings behind closed doors, what is fair about that?
Even someone found guilty in a "normal" court should have the right t a fair hearing when deportation is the likely outcome of losing. | |
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| Nationality and Borders Bill on 17:36 - Dec 17 with 617 views | Gwyn737 |
Of course this could all be sorted by properly funding the chronically strapped justice system.
It always amazes me that its the same group who want everybody locked up also get their knickers in a twist over legal aid. | | | |
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