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One of the biggest arguments I hear Vegans make is eating meat is cruelty to the animals but consider this, what if plants are intelligent and feel distress? Well wake up folks because they are and they do.
Just watch the Green planet, Trees communicate and some are called "Mother trees" and its been shown they recognise their offspring and send food to them,
So the plants all around us communicate, they give warnings of attack and they help their 'chldren' which proves a level of intelligence so eating only plant based food can be seen as cruel to. We are all part of the food chain, like it or not.
Why Vegans are wrong on 13:50 - Jan 28 by Dr_Parnassus
Yep taste, it’s sensory pleasure.
You don’t need to eat animals to survive. If I and countless other people survive without harming animals then I am sure you can do it too.
You wouldn’t because you don’t want to. You don’t want to because you like the taste. That’s pleasure not necessity and no different to inflicting pain on animals for sensory pleasure in other aspects.
Yes I do say plants don’t feel pain, the research on that is extensive. They have no brain and no central nervous system. Hence why you wouldn’t stop someone picking a flower but would stop someone slicing a dogs throat… am I right?
Food for thought (no pun intended)
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Why Vegans are wrong on 18:24 - Jan 28 with 1221 views
Why Vegans are wrong on 13:50 - Jan 28 by Dr_Parnassus
Yep taste, it’s sensory pleasure.
You don’t need to eat animals to survive. If I and countless other people survive without harming animals then I am sure you can do it too.
You wouldn’t because you don’t want to. You don’t want to because you like the taste. That’s pleasure not necessity and no different to inflicting pain on animals for sensory pleasure in other aspects.
Yes I do say plants don’t feel pain, the research on that is extensive. They have no brain and no central nervous system. Hence why you wouldn’t stop someone picking a flower but would stop someone slicing a dogs throat… am I right?
Yes taste is a sensory pleasure but it doesn't equate to taking pleasure in killing the animal, that's a loopy assertion.
Humans have been eating animals for thousands of years, to survive. Ancient man would not have risked his life trying to kill dangerous animals if they could survive on plants alone. We have evolved to be omnivores.
Yes I like the taste, why would I eat something I don't like? it doesnt mean I like the thought of any unnecessary suffering, that's why abattoirs have rules and any cruelty should be punished.
The research is extensive and it has begun to show the is much more to plants than humans first imagined. You have to deny the possibility of course or your dietary choice is thrown a curveball. Slicing a dogs throat for the sheer pleasure is obviously wrong but as a loving dog owner I have had to take my best friends on their last trips to the vet, do you think I take any pleasure in that? Nature is best served by maintaining the balance, it all has balance but humanity is doing it's best to subvert that. Animals eat other animals, that's just the way it is, it's called the food chain and there is a top and bottom to it, we are at the top...most of the time!
Why Vegans are wrong on 18:24 - Jan 28 by Catullus
Yes taste is a sensory pleasure but it doesn't equate to taking pleasure in killing the animal, that's a loopy assertion.
Humans have been eating animals for thousands of years, to survive. Ancient man would not have risked his life trying to kill dangerous animals if they could survive on plants alone. We have evolved to be omnivores.
Yes I like the taste, why would I eat something I don't like? it doesnt mean I like the thought of any unnecessary suffering, that's why abattoirs have rules and any cruelty should be punished.
The research is extensive and it has begun to show the is much more to plants than humans first imagined. You have to deny the possibility of course or your dietary choice is thrown a curveball. Slicing a dogs throat for the sheer pleasure is obviously wrong but as a loving dog owner I have had to take my best friends on their last trips to the vet, do you think I take any pleasure in that? Nature is best served by maintaining the balance, it all has balance but humanity is doing it's best to subvert that. Animals eat other animals, that's just the way it is, it's called the food chain and there is a top and bottom to it, we are at the top...most of the time!
Killing an animal is a horrible thing to have to do Cat.
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Why Vegans are wrong on 19:45 - Jan 28 with 1188 views
I have 4 hens. They leave eggs lying around. I take the eggs and cook them in a pan and eat them on some lightly buttered toast (is yeast vegan?). How is that harming the hens? Yet vegans would disapprove of this.
Some vegans would disapprove, I wouldn’t.
If people had their own hens, looked after them well and ate the eggs. That’s fine as far as I’m concerned.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Why Vegans are wrong on 15:36 - Jan 28 by Professor
Meat sales are not falling though. Look through the trend and the reality is veganiism is still a tiny proportion of people. Still will take grass fed Welsh beef over that. As JM &B says then McPlant is highly professed and far from natural
Meat consumption will absolutely fall, not even in question.
It’s completely unsustainable, horrendous for the environment, causing a lot of disease and poor health and alternatives are being sought. The shift has happened too, so many want to go vegan/vegetarian or at least recognise that they should.
People get very defensive when their way of life is questioned (you may well know yourself deep down to be one of them), but the fact is killing animals needlessly has awful ramifications on so many levels.
Governments will be forced to step in soon as it simply cannot continue this way, for a variety of reasons.
[Post edited 29 Jan 2022 0:57]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Why Vegans are wrong on 18:24 - Jan 28 by Catullus
Yes taste is a sensory pleasure but it doesn't equate to taking pleasure in killing the animal, that's a loopy assertion.
Humans have been eating animals for thousands of years, to survive. Ancient man would not have risked his life trying to kill dangerous animals if they could survive on plants alone. We have evolved to be omnivores.
Yes I like the taste, why would I eat something I don't like? it doesnt mean I like the thought of any unnecessary suffering, that's why abattoirs have rules and any cruelty should be punished.
The research is extensive and it has begun to show the is much more to plants than humans first imagined. You have to deny the possibility of course or your dietary choice is thrown a curveball. Slicing a dogs throat for the sheer pleasure is obviously wrong but as a loving dog owner I have had to take my best friends on their last trips to the vet, do you think I take any pleasure in that? Nature is best served by maintaining the balance, it all has balance but humanity is doing it's best to subvert that. Animals eat other animals, that's just the way it is, it's called the food chain and there is a top and bottom to it, we are at the top...most of the time!
It does equate.
If someone kills a dog because it brings them sensory pleasure to their brain...
How is that worse than someone killing an animal because it brings them sensory pleasure to their tongue?
Both completely needless. Both done for pleasure.
Man has been raping each other, living in caves and killing each other for thousands of years, when do you move out of your home out of interest? Or are you just picking and choosing which parts to emulate?
We don’t do the above because we have evolved to live better, healthier and more morally acceptable ways.
I can’t think of too many other violent things that someone justifies by saying man did it for thousands of years…
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Why Vegans are wrong on 17:36 - Jan 28 by Treforys_Jack
Food for thought (no pun intended)
Yep there is no argument against it.
If you eat animals, then you have to accept you partake in a system that kills them needlessly for pleasure. It’s as simple as that.
If you can live with that and square that away in your mind knowing that you are contributing to the needless killing of billions of land and sea animals every single year then it is what it is, and you are making that choice based on a willingness and a recognition that you are in that process.
The issue I have with it is when people who eat meat suggest they are doing it to survive. There is more chance their meat consumption is harming their health as opposed to enhancing it. Vegans have a 10 year longer life span, so the notion of doing it to survive is just bonkers and completely flawed.
If it comes to an issue of actual survival, I would have no issue killing and eating an animal. Well I would, I’d hate doing it, but my conscience would be easy to clear.
In terms of our biology, I don’t think we are designed to eat meat, certainly not on the scale humans do. We harbour very little of the characteristics of meat eaters. We have brittle nails, long digestion organs, our jaw composition and teeth structure that can barely open a packet of nuts and get extremely sick if we eat the meat without treating it first.
Then we go to our brains. We feel compassion for animals, that isn’t something an apex predator tends to do with it prey. We feel disgusted at the sight of blood and guts and slaughter, where as an apex predator would be into overdrive wanting to devour the bloody mess. We only look at an animal and get hungry and see it as food when it’s been processed and packaged to look like a burger or steak as you have come to recognise, that’s a social construction not nature.
Put a baby animal in a child’s hands, they nurture it. Their instincts aren’t to kill and eat it. Put a baby chicken in with a lion cub and the outcome would be much different. Our natural instincts are to protect animals, not harm them.
We have evolved to eat small amounts of meat in survival situations. Our teeth are similar to primates that eat fruit and nuts and our hands are designed for picking not destroying. Colon cancer being directly linked to meat consumption because of the long digestive tract. You don’t see many lions getting colon cancer and heart disease. Their bodies thrive off meat.
Ours thrive on plants. Being able to process small quantities of meat doesn’t mean we should when we don’t have to.
That’s my tuppenceworth
[Post edited 29 Jan 2022 0:09]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Why Vegans are wrong on 00:05 - Jan 29 by Dr_Parnassus
Yep there is no argument against it.
If you eat animals, then you have to accept you partake in a system that kills them needlessly for pleasure. It’s as simple as that.
If you can live with that and square that away in your mind knowing that you are contributing to the needless killing of billions of land and sea animals every single year then it is what it is, and you are making that choice based on a willingness and a recognition that you are in that process.
The issue I have with it is when people who eat meat suggest they are doing it to survive. There is more chance their meat consumption is harming their health as opposed to enhancing it. Vegans have a 10 year longer life span, so the notion of doing it to survive is just bonkers and completely flawed.
If it comes to an issue of actual survival, I would have no issue killing and eating an animal. Well I would, I’d hate doing it, but my conscience would be easy to clear.
In terms of our biology, I don’t think we are designed to eat meat, certainly not on the scale humans do. We harbour very little of the characteristics of meat eaters. We have brittle nails, long digestion organs, our jaw composition and teeth structure that can barely open a packet of nuts and get extremely sick if we eat the meat without treating it first.
Then we go to our brains. We feel compassion for animals, that isn’t something an apex predator tends to do with it prey. We feel disgusted at the sight of blood and guts and slaughter, where as an apex predator would be into overdrive wanting to devour the bloody mess. We only look at an animal and get hungry and see it as food when it’s been processed and packaged to look like a burger or steak as you have come to recognise, that’s a social construction not nature.
Put a baby animal in a child’s hands, they nurture it. Their instincts aren’t to kill and eat it. Put a baby chicken in with a lion cub and the outcome would be much different. Our natural instincts are to protect animals, not harm them.
We have evolved to eat small amounts of meat in survival situations. Our teeth are similar to primates that eat fruit and nuts and our hands are designed for picking not destroying. Colon cancer being directly linked to meat consumption because of the long digestive tract. You don’t see many lions getting colon cancer and heart disease. Their bodies thrive off meat.
Ours thrive on plants. Being able to process small quantities of meat doesn’t mean we should when we don’t have to.
That’s my tuppenceworth
[Post edited 29 Jan 2022 0:09]
What prompted you to become a vegan? was it a long time coming or a moment where you just decided. Did you become a vegetarian before a vegan. Genuinely interested as it's something I've wrestled with for a number of years.
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Why Vegans are wrong on 07:46 - Jan 31 with 917 views
Why Vegans are wrong on 07:27 - Jan 31 by Treforys_Jack
What prompted you to become a vegan? was it a long time coming or a moment where you just decided. Did you become a vegetarian before a vegan. Genuinely interested as it's something I've wrestled with for a number of years.
Health was the main factor, that made me look into it more due to the clear links between cancer and a lot of meats. Well... it isn't even a link, they are group 1 carcinogenic.
Always loved animals and my actions didn't align with that, always made me feel a little uncomfortable and hated it when my food had blood in it or gristle, turned my stomach. Then it got me thinking, why as a meat eater am I disgusted by what meat is? That doesn't feel natural.
So then I looked into the animal side of it, and it was horrific. Even in places where you think the practices are ''humane'', they aren't in any way shape or form. Horrendous doesn't even come close.
Me and my fiancée were then finally talking a walk in Melbourne and were about to cross the road and a truck pulled up carrying livestock. They were poking their heads out of the side clearly terrified, you could see it in their eyes.
Went vegan overnight.
If you are genuinely thinking about it then Ed Winters above (Earthling Ed) is fantastic to watch on YouTube, he's not one of those aggressive militant vegans. Passionate but thought process is very calm and clear, some of his discussions with meat eaters are fascinating.
Then I would recommend watching some things about it. Forks over knives was a smash hit on Netflix and is what prompted a lot of people, its about the health side of it. Then there is Earthlings, which I would only watch if you have a genuine interest in the animal side of things, its very upsetting but a great source of knowledge.
One of the things that stuck with me was a cow just gave birth, and because it was a male the farmer shot it in the head right there and then and dragged off because it is not profitable. The cow was frantic and crying for days before it collapsed, real grief.
The egg industry also shocked me. Again, as chicks were hatching they were checking the sex and if they were a boy they were thrown into a grinder alive as if it was nothing, which is normal practice. dozens at a time being tossed in like a piece of rubbish.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Why Vegans are wrong on 07:27 - Jan 31 by Treforys_Jack
What prompted you to become a vegan? was it a long time coming or a moment where you just decided. Did you become a vegetarian before a vegan. Genuinely interested as it's something I've wrestled with for a number of years.
I wrestled with it for a while too, my wife is a vege and we've had spells of being vegan, but I found it too difficult in the long term especially with children around. I'm now a flexitarian. It's not some sort of new age guff that makes me a member of extinction rebellion but really just gets you thinking about what you eat.
I need to eat a lot of protein so not eating meat, fish and dairy is really difficult. So I make sure I buy from sources that I know are sustainable.
Dr P is correct regarding some of the so called "humane" sources of food, they're anything but. So called "free range" eggs are usually not from hens pecking around a field, the dairy industry can be horrendous and some methods of commercial fishing are as bad.
I get meat from farmers markets and only eat line caught fish, but I see those as treats and usually have them once a week. My eggs are genuinely free range. By far the most difficult thing to get from a sustainable source is dairy.
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Why Vegans are wrong on 09:05 - Jan 31 with 890 views
I wrestled with it for a while too, my wife is a vege and we've had spells of being vegan, but I found it too difficult in the long term especially with children around. I'm now a flexitarian. It's not some sort of new age guff that makes me a member of extinction rebellion but really just gets you thinking about what you eat.
I need to eat a lot of protein so not eating meat, fish and dairy is really difficult. So I make sure I buy from sources that I know are sustainable.
Dr P is correct regarding some of the so called "humane" sources of food, they're anything but. So called "free range" eggs are usually not from hens pecking around a field, the dairy industry can be horrendous and some methods of commercial fishing are as bad.
I get meat from farmers markets and only eat line caught fish, but I see those as treats and usually have them once a week. My eggs are genuinely free range. By far the most difficult thing to get from a sustainable source is dairy.
They then brand the product “happy eggs” and “laughing cow” knowing the reality is anything but.
If people want to see what goes on in a slaughter house there are plenty of sources. Most people wouldn’t though, but then I would ask them… why wouldn’t they?
The reason is the process doesn’t align with their natural instincts.
It’s a massive giveaway.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Why Vegans are wrong on 17:13 - Jan 31 by Treforys_Jack
Thanks for input to my questions, definitely needs more looking into for myself but can definitely see me changing, just how far I'm not sure.
As a family we have been flexi for a while now. Everything we do, absolutely everything, must be far more sustainable.
I know killing animals isn't nice but there is a balance that must be maintained. All animals are part of the food chain. if I fell off a boat and a Great White was swimming by I might well be its lunch and if it was hungry it wouldn't care if I suffered while I died.
As new research comes through and we discover more about how clever, even intelligent, plants are, we may well find out a few home truths. After all, if a tree can really direct food to it's offspring, if the smell of cut grass is a chemical warning of danger, who can say plants aren't intelligent?
I wrestled with it for a while too, my wife is a vege and we've had spells of being vegan, but I found it too difficult in the long term especially with children around. I'm now a flexitarian. It's not some sort of new age guff that makes me a member of extinction rebellion but really just gets you thinking about what you eat.
I need to eat a lot of protein so not eating meat, fish and dairy is really difficult. So I make sure I buy from sources that I know are sustainable.
Dr P is correct regarding some of the so called "humane" sources of food, they're anything but. So called "free range" eggs are usually not from hens pecking around a field, the dairy industry can be horrendous and some methods of commercial fishing are as bad.
I get meat from farmers markets and only eat line caught fish, but I see those as treats and usually have them once a week. My eggs are genuinely free range. By far the most difficult thing to get from a sustainable source is dairy.
Chickens should not be in fields, not pigs. Both woodland/jungle animals, so free range/outdoor production systems are wrong anyway.
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Why Vegans are wrong on 13:33 - Feb 1 with 786 views
Why Vegans are wrong on 09:05 - Jan 31 by Dr_Parnassus
They then brand the product “happy eggs” and “laughing cow” knowing the reality is anything but.
If people want to see what goes on in a slaughter house there are plenty of sources. Most people wouldn’t though, but then I would ask them… why wouldn’t they?
The reason is the process doesn’t align with their natural instincts.
It’s a massive giveaway.
I've been in slaughterhouses in Africa and Latin America as well as the UK. It's not pleasant and you are right that people should be aware of the nature of production and death of animals. Does it stop me eating meat? No, and I would kill an animal for meat without hesitation. But equally that animal should be reared to the highest standard. Unfortunately the UK seems to content to lower its standards to those of the US and Australia.
I admire your viewpoint-we have been here before of course.
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Why Vegans are wrong on 14:04 - Feb 1 with 771 views
As a family we have been flexi for a while now. Everything we do, absolutely everything, must be far more sustainable.
I know killing animals isn't nice but there is a balance that must be maintained. All animals are part of the food chain. if I fell off a boat and a Great White was swimming by I might well be its lunch and if it was hungry it wouldn't care if I suffered while I died.
As new research comes through and we discover more about how clever, even intelligent, plants are, we may well find out a few home truths. After all, if a tree can really direct food to it's offspring, if the smell of cut grass is a chemical warning of danger, who can say plants aren't intelligent?
The Great White doesn’t have moral agency though, it’s instinct is just to survive. It’s an apex predator.
You have a moral agency which I’m sure would come into practice if you saw an animal in pain or you would step in if someone was being violent to an animal.
So basing your morals towards other forms of life on the morals of a wild animal is barking mad isn’t it. “Behaving like a wild animal” is often a sentence we use to describe terrible behaviour. We don’t use wild animals as justification for our behaviour, we use them as justification not to act like them.
The food chain argument doesn’t really stand up to scrutiny because you don’t have to kill animals to thrive and be healthy, others in that food chain do. The food chain is also something which shows an ecosystem and the way it’s evolved to be harmonious to the planet.
Humans breeding billions of animals into existence and killing them often ruins those ecosystems and doesn’t help it, humans have added themselves into that chain as opposed to being put there naturally.
The ecosystem of the sea being a prime example of man putting themselves in a position in the food chain that nature clearly didn’t want.
The food chain just shows you are able to kill and eat animals, but we can do a lot of things we probably shouldn’t if we can avoid.
I can skin a dog alive and wear it if I want, but I wouldn’t because there are options out there that cause far less harm. Eating meat to me is no different to wearing fur, you can say both are done “to survive”, but neither are really required for survival in the western world.
We already know an incredible amount about plants. You are talking chemical stimuli and interpreting that as pre meditated thought processes. You are anthropomorphising plants, which isn’t a smart thing to do considering they have no brain or central nervous system.
I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t stop someone mowing their lawn but would stop someone beating a dog, am I right?
There is a reason for that.
[Post edited 1 Feb 2022 14:19]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
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