| The possession fallacy 22:10 - Feb 19 with 2304 views | Dr_Parnassus |
I have said a few times that our possession stats aren't through ability and dominance (rarely anyway) but as a product of both our tactics and the oppositions.
Allowing us to have possession and play the way we do is sometimes as good for the opposition as them having it. The high press is deployed and instead of creating excellent chances themselves, they allow us to create them for them.
Sheffield United certainly used this understanding to do just that as confirmed by the manager.
Heckingbottom said: “(There are) different way to create chances.
“If you compare it with Hull when all our chances came from us and our good play.
“You can sometimes get the best opportunities winning the ball high when a team’s split. Swansea give you that.”
So when we come away with 70% possession and a defeat and Martin claims we dominated as a result, we probably haven't. My concern is he doesn't seem to recognise this. |  |
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| The possession fallacy on 07:31 - Feb 20 with 1716 views | felixstowe_jack |
He is sadly deluded. His obsession with possession blinds him to anything else. The only statistic that count are goals scored and goals conceded. Score more than the opposition and you win. |  |
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| The possession fallacy on 10:00 - Feb 20 with 1660 views | Catullus |
I think it depends on the quality of the oppo, against the Bristols it is our good play, against the better teams they can use it against us.
Why should teams worry about making good chances when we do it for them, the inevitable mistake or three has gifted the oppo far too many goals.
We should split the pitch into thirds, in our last third, take no chances, if closed down then send the ball, middle third, try and keep possession, front third we should be very prepared to try the risky balls forward.
That's basic summing up but that's where we need to be. We cannot keep throwing goals away. Martin doesn't want to see that though. I know many rail against OHL's opinion of him because he'd made his mind up before giving Martin any chance but it is looking to be fairly accurate, Martin is too stubborn and/or arrogant to change.
Short of 30 million to spend on players good enough, this is what his tenure is going to be about. As a result the good players we have signed will want to leave, better clubs will pick them off and we'll struggle to sign replacements good enough because people won't trust the manager or see a club in turmoil.
Martin has to change, he has to adapt, if he can't then he's no good to us. | |
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| The possession fallacy on 12:24 - Feb 20 with 1621 views | onehunglow |
| The possession fallacy on 10:00 - Feb 20 by Catullus |
I think it depends on the quality of the oppo, against the Bristols it is our good play, against the better teams they can use it against us.
Why should teams worry about making good chances when we do it for them, the inevitable mistake or three has gifted the oppo far too many goals.
We should split the pitch into thirds, in our last third, take no chances, if closed down then send the ball, middle third, try and keep possession, front third we should be very prepared to try the risky balls forward.
That's basic summing up but that's where we need to be. We cannot keep throwing goals away. Martin doesn't want to see that though. I know many rail against OHL's opinion of him because he'd made his mind up before giving Martin any chance but it is looking to be fairly accurate, Martin is too stubborn and/or arrogant to change.
Short of 30 million to spend on players good enough, this is what his tenure is going to be about. As a result the good players we have signed will want to leave, better clubs will pick them off and we'll struggle to sign replacements good enough because people won't trust the manager or see a club in turmoil.
Martin has to change, he has to adapt, if he can't then he's no good to us. |
Preston was enough Cat.
People should never underestimate me
Being out on a limb is ok.
I care not what others think at all.
Never have
Martin has been the same from day 1 and the plan should have meant us improving.
There is no plan ,no improvement.
I was also told he would be given time.
Keith tells me he won’t be going anywhere . Now why is that . .
There are more questions than answers
What angers me more are good lads like Whits getting dumped, Joseph being treated like Whittaker and Downes being mismanaged at a grotesque level.
It is incredulous anyone at all does not want this chap out of our club | |
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| The possession fallacy on 12:25 - Feb 20 with 1620 views | onehunglow |
| The possession fallacy on 10:00 - Feb 20 by Catullus |
I think it depends on the quality of the oppo, against the Bristols it is our good play, against the better teams they can use it against us.
Why should teams worry about making good chances when we do it for them, the inevitable mistake or three has gifted the oppo far too many goals.
We should split the pitch into thirds, in our last third, take no chances, if closed down then send the ball, middle third, try and keep possession, front third we should be very prepared to try the risky balls forward.
That's basic summing up but that's where we need to be. We cannot keep throwing goals away. Martin doesn't want to see that though. I know many rail against OHL's opinion of him because he'd made his mind up before giving Martin any chance but it is looking to be fairly accurate, Martin is too stubborn and/or arrogant to change.
Short of 30 million to spend on players good enough, this is what his tenure is going to be about. As a result the good players we have signed will want to leave, better clubs will pick them off and we'll struggle to sign replacements good enough because people won't trust the manager or see a club in turmoil.
Martin has to change, he has to adapt, if he can't then he's no good to us. |
But if he carries on as he is,then what ?
We need to face this head on. | |
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| The possession fallacy on 12:41 - Feb 20 with 1605 views | SwaneeRiver |
Possession for possession sake, going backwards and sideways, a keeper who doesn't look comfortable with his defence or the system.
Martin us going nowhere only because the Yanks won't want to pay him and his staff off.
Otherwise I think enough is enough
Perhaps the only way forward is to bring in an experienced coach to give him some guidance.
However that would mean him accepting he needs to change his thinking. Not sure he would | | | |
| The possession fallacy on 13:12 - Feb 20 with 1577 views | onehunglow |
| The possession fallacy on 12:41 - Feb 20 by SwaneeRiver |
Possession for possession sake, going backwards and sideways, a keeper who doesn't look comfortable with his defence or the system.
Martin us going nowhere only because the Yanks won't want to pay him and his staff off.
Otherwise I think enough is enough
Perhaps the only way forward is to bring in an experienced coach to give him some guidance.
However that would mean him accepting he needs to change his thinking. Not sure he would |
Indeed so | |
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| The possession fallacy on 16:15 - Feb 20 with 1504 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
Possession football is not some weird idea thought up by crackpots. it is the football style of a large number of teams worldwide. Youth teams in advance football nations play in this style. It is the chosen style of Swansea city under Huw jenkins in the main since the sacking of Kenny Jackett. Club icons like Lee Trundle and Leon Britton lived by these principles . Players in the Swansea academy should have been brought up playing it . I watch the Croatian u19 play it v a tough high press Wales team featuring young Savage and Henry Jones. Wales could not lay a glove on them.
Kistian O'Leary is applying it in the u23s and after a difficult start things are improving. Rushesha has been playing like this from the age of 11 or so. Kai Ludvigsen on the u18. Abdulai has been brought in and looks the part.
BCabang o has been highlighted by martin as the one acadmey player in the first team. Bid g strong determined. If he is a fully rounded centre bck in the modern top class style he will develop into the next Ashley Williams. The Weslh team captain and star defender £30m not a penny less. If he does not develop he will not get in the Welsh team and stay in the Championship or below.
Swansea played this game v Sheffield and have not got it perfected. The old pros of Sheffield Utd were able to hassle them out of it. 12 months later hopefully they will not be able to do this. Cabango, Grimes, Downes, Christie, LatiB, Naughton Manning have nowhere to hide. Perfect the style or 'on yer bike'. Once perfected Swansea are flying.
The question is not the style of play . The question is can Martin deliver it? Williams could not and is on his way. The u18 coach the same.
Its this way or the highway. At present it can only deliver mid table inconsistency, |  |
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| The possession fallacy on 16:20 - Feb 20 with 1501 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| The possession fallacy on 12:41 - Feb 20 by SwaneeRiver |
Possession for possession sake, going backwards and sideways, a keeper who doesn't look comfortable with his defence or the system.
Martin us going nowhere only because the Yanks won't want to pay him and his staff off.
Otherwise I think enough is enough
Perhaps the only way forward is to bring in an experienced coach to give him some guidance.
However that would mean him accepting he needs to change his thinking. Not sure he would |
As you say "Possession for possession sake", which is worthless unless it meets 2 criteria.
Denies your opposition goal scoring opportunities and/or creates your team goal scoring opportunities.
They way we use it it does neither against decent teams and is far too easy to negate anyway as it is very slow in attack and too easy to make mistakes.
It is not the same as fast flowing football. | | | |
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| The possession fallacy on 16:26 - Feb 20 with 1496 views | SwaneeRiver |
| The possession fallacy on 16:15 - Feb 20 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Possession football is not some weird idea thought up by crackpots. it is the football style of a large number of teams worldwide. Youth teams in advance football nations play in this style. It is the chosen style of Swansea city under Huw jenkins in the main since the sacking of Kenny Jackett. Club icons like Lee Trundle and Leon Britton lived by these principles . Players in the Swansea academy should have been brought up playing it . I watch the Croatian u19 play it v a tough high press Wales team featuring young Savage and Henry Jones. Wales could not lay a glove on them.
Kistian O'Leary is applying it in the u23s and after a difficult start things are improving. Rushesha has been playing like this from the age of 11 or so. Kai Ludvigsen on the u18. Abdulai has been brought in and looks the part.
BCabang o has been highlighted by martin as the one acadmey player in the first team. Bid g strong determined. If he is a fully rounded centre bck in the modern top class style he will develop into the next Ashley Williams. The Weslh team captain and star defender £30m not a penny less. If he does not develop he will not get in the Welsh team and stay in the Championship or below.
Swansea played this game v Sheffield and have not got it perfected. The old pros of Sheffield Utd were able to hassle them out of it. 12 months later hopefully they will not be able to do this. Cabango, Grimes, Downes, Christie, LatiB, Naughton Manning have nowhere to hide. Perfect the style or 'on yer bike'. Once perfected Swansea are flying.
The question is not the style of play . The question is can Martin deliver it? Williams could not and is on his way. The u18 coach the same.
Its this way or the highway. At present it can only deliver mid table inconsistency, |
Agree but you have to play to your strengths surely ?
ATM we do not have enough players of the calibre to succeed at this.
If RM is able to bring in the players he needs and get them playing to the standard we all desire come August, then great.
My worry he is he needs to adapt and get the fans behind him for the rest of this season.
Otherwise he is under pressure from game one next season | | | |
| The possession fallacy on 16:45 - Feb 20 with 1481 views | onehunglow |
Our players ,for some reaon,eshew any afety play at all;by this I mean clearing your lines,which is basic football.
Every sport has basics.
Do them well and you have a chance
We are excreable | |
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| The possession fallacy on 17:38 - Feb 20 with 1457 views | Catullus |
| The possession fallacy on 16:26 - Feb 20 by SwaneeRiver |
Agree but you have to play to your strengths surely ?
ATM we do not have enough players of the calibre to succeed at this.
If RM is able to bring in the players he needs and get them playing to the standard we all desire come August, then great.
My worry he is he needs to adapt and get the fans behind him for the rest of this season.
Otherwise he is under pressure from game one next season |
Martin has been under pressure for a while, the pressure is only going to build.
If he refuses to adapt this probably won't end well for anyone. | |
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| The possession fallacy on 17:44 - Feb 20 with 1452 views | SwaneeRiver |
| The possession fallacy on 17:38 - Feb 20 by Catullus |
Martin has been under pressure for a while, the pressure is only going to build.
If he refuses to adapt this probably won't end well for anyone. |
Yes and by all accounts showed in his after match interview yesterday ? | | | |
| The possession fallacy on 22:52 - Feb 20 with 1361 views | builthjack |
| The possession fallacy on 12:24 - Feb 20 by onehunglow |
Preston was enough Cat.
People should never underestimate me
Being out on a limb is ok.
I care not what others think at all.
Never have
Martin has been the same from day 1 and the plan should have meant us improving.
There is no plan ,no improvement.
I was also told he would be given time.
Keith tells me he won’t be going anywhere . Now why is that . .
There are more questions than answers
What angers me more are good lads like Whits getting dumped, Joseph being treated like Whittaker and Downes being mismanaged at a grotesque level.
It is incredulous anyone at all does not want this chap out of our club |
We beat Preston. |  |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| The possession fallacy on 22:55 - Feb 20 with 1364 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The possession fallacy on 16:15 - Feb 20 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Possession football is not some weird idea thought up by crackpots. it is the football style of a large number of teams worldwide. Youth teams in advance football nations play in this style. It is the chosen style of Swansea city under Huw jenkins in the main since the sacking of Kenny Jackett. Club icons like Lee Trundle and Leon Britton lived by these principles . Players in the Swansea academy should have been brought up playing it . I watch the Croatian u19 play it v a tough high press Wales team featuring young Savage and Henry Jones. Wales could not lay a glove on them.
Kistian O'Leary is applying it in the u23s and after a difficult start things are improving. Rushesha has been playing like this from the age of 11 or so. Kai Ludvigsen on the u18. Abdulai has been brought in and looks the part.
BCabang o has been highlighted by martin as the one acadmey player in the first team. Bid g strong determined. If he is a fully rounded centre bck in the modern top class style he will develop into the next Ashley Williams. The Weslh team captain and star defender £30m not a penny less. If he does not develop he will not get in the Welsh team and stay in the Championship or below.
Swansea played this game v Sheffield and have not got it perfected. The old pros of Sheffield Utd were able to hassle them out of it. 12 months later hopefully they will not be able to do this. Cabango, Grimes, Downes, Christie, LatiB, Naughton Manning have nowhere to hide. Perfect the style or 'on yer bike'. Once perfected Swansea are flying.
The question is not the style of play . The question is can Martin deliver it? Williams could not and is on his way. The u18 coach the same.
Its this way or the highway. At present it can only deliver mid table inconsistency, |
You keep talking about “possession football” as if the way we play is the way that everyone plays that deploys “possession football”.
If I send my team out to camp inside my own 18 yard box and pass it back and fore to each other with instructions to never venture out of the box, but to keep it… that is “possession football” too. I’d have 80% of the possession and probably lose 15-0.
To refuse to analyse that and say “we dominated possession and all the best teams do that” doesn’t quite cover the reality of the way we are playing. That is the same (but a less extreme) situation as what is happening this season, how we are being asked to play can’t work for very obvious technical and tactical reasons.
This version of possession football is completely senseless, flawed to the core and inexcusably stupid. It shows no understanding for the game, the level we are at and “why” possession football can be so effective.
Your mistake appears to be one that many make where you assume if you keep the ball more than the opposition do then no matter what the system is that you play or what you do with it, then it must be good.
Sadly football is a lot deeper than that. [Post edited 20 Feb 2022 23:20]
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| The possession fallacy on 23:14 - Feb 20 with 1341 views | builthjack |
We did the passing about at the back when Potter was in charge. But we had outlets to eventually give it to. | |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| The possession fallacy on 07:07 - Feb 21 with 1295 views | PawelAbbott |
| The possession fallacy on 16:15 - Feb 20 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Possession football is not some weird idea thought up by crackpots. it is the football style of a large number of teams worldwide. Youth teams in advance football nations play in this style. It is the chosen style of Swansea city under Huw jenkins in the main since the sacking of Kenny Jackett. Club icons like Lee Trundle and Leon Britton lived by these principles . Players in the Swansea academy should have been brought up playing it . I watch the Croatian u19 play it v a tough high press Wales team featuring young Savage and Henry Jones. Wales could not lay a glove on them.
Kistian O'Leary is applying it in the u23s and after a difficult start things are improving. Rushesha has been playing like this from the age of 11 or so. Kai Ludvigsen on the u18. Abdulai has been brought in and looks the part.
BCabang o has been highlighted by martin as the one acadmey player in the first team. Bid g strong determined. If he is a fully rounded centre bck in the modern top class style he will develop into the next Ashley Williams. The Weslh team captain and star defender £30m not a penny less. If he does not develop he will not get in the Welsh team and stay in the Championship or below.
Swansea played this game v Sheffield and have not got it perfected. The old pros of Sheffield Utd were able to hassle them out of it. 12 months later hopefully they will not be able to do this. Cabango, Grimes, Downes, Christie, LatiB, Naughton Manning have nowhere to hide. Perfect the style or 'on yer bike'. Once perfected Swansea are flying.
The question is not the style of play . The question is can Martin deliver it? Williams could not and is on his way. The u18 coach the same.
Its this way or the highway. At present it can only deliver mid table inconsistency, |
This isn't the same possession football that worked so well under Rogers, Martinez etc. That was pass and move. When under pressure they would play long. Ashley Williams wasn't adverse to playing a long diagonal ball when needed or it opened up the opposition. The midfield worked their arses off to create triangles for the defenders. That was also back in the days when teams didn't employ the high press.
Football has moved on and tactics to beat the slow possession have stopped even the best teams from sticking religiously to it.
Secondly, our midfield are not supporting the defence. There's no movement to give easy options. There's no tracking back to recover lost possession.
The only thing our possession achieves is it gives the opposition a rest. | | | |
| The possession fallacy on 09:17 - Feb 21 with 1266 views | onehunglow |
| The possession fallacy on 17:38 - Feb 20 by Catullus |
Martin has been under pressure for a while, the pressure is only going to build.
If he refuses to adapt this probably won't end well for anyone. |
He can solve matter immediately on the training field.
Work with what he has
First step is to bring back Hamer ,then bench Grimes | |
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| The possession fallacy on 09:44 - Feb 21 with 1252 views | STID2017 |
| The possession fallacy on 09:17 - Feb 21 by onehunglow |
He can solve matter immediately on the training field.
Work with what he has
First step is to bring back Hamer ,then bench Grimes |
Agreed |  |
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| The possession fallacy on 10:19 - Feb 21 with 1229 views | union_jack |
| The possession fallacy on 09:44 - Feb 21 by STID2017 |
Agreed |
Yes, but won’t happen. |  |
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| The possession fallacy on 10:33 - Feb 21 with 1218 views | onehunglow |
| The possession fallacy on 10:19 - Feb 21 by union_jack |
Yes, but won’t happen. |
And there is our problem.
It’s right there facing us | |
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| The possession fallacy on 11:41 - Feb 21 with 1190 views | union_jack |
| The possession fallacy on 10:33 - Feb 21 by onehunglow |
And there is our problem.
It’s right there facing us |
I agree but he’d have to eat a lot of humble pie to drop his choice of keeper (who in my opinion is not to the required standard). As for Grimes, I’ve no idea why he’s not been benched yet. He’s the captain (well in name anyway) but should not be exempt from being dropped even if he has to be ‘rested’ . | |
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| The possession fallacy on 12:08 - Feb 21 with 1178 views | Catullus |
| The possession fallacy on 11:41 - Feb 21 by union_jack |
I agree but he’d have to eat a lot of humble pie to drop his choice of keeper (who in my opinion is not to the required standard). As for Grimes, I’ve no idea why he’s not been benched yet. He’s the captain (well in name anyway) but should not be exempt from being dropped even if he has to be ‘rested’ . |
Grimes must be incredible in training, is all I can say about him anymore. | |
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| The possession fallacy on 15:02 - Feb 21 with 1153 views | EagleEye |
| The possession fallacy on 16:15 - Feb 20 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Possession football is not some weird idea thought up by crackpots. it is the football style of a large number of teams worldwide. Youth teams in advance football nations play in this style. It is the chosen style of Swansea city under Huw jenkins in the main since the sacking of Kenny Jackett. Club icons like Lee Trundle and Leon Britton lived by these principles . Players in the Swansea academy should have been brought up playing it . I watch the Croatian u19 play it v a tough high press Wales team featuring young Savage and Henry Jones. Wales could not lay a glove on them.
Kistian O'Leary is applying it in the u23s and after a difficult start things are improving. Rushesha has been playing like this from the age of 11 or so. Kai Ludvigsen on the u18. Abdulai has been brought in and looks the part.
BCabang o has been highlighted by martin as the one acadmey player in the first team. Bid g strong determined. If he is a fully rounded centre bck in the modern top class style he will develop into the next Ashley Williams. The Weslh team captain and star defender £30m not a penny less. If he does not develop he will not get in the Welsh team and stay in the Championship or below.
Swansea played this game v Sheffield and have not got it perfected. The old pros of Sheffield Utd were able to hassle them out of it. 12 months later hopefully they will not be able to do this. Cabango, Grimes, Downes, Christie, LatiB, Naughton Manning have nowhere to hide. Perfect the style or 'on yer bike'. Once perfected Swansea are flying.
The question is not the style of play . The question is can Martin deliver it? Williams could not and is on his way. The u18 coach the same.
Its this way or the highway. At present it can only deliver mid table inconsistency, |
You may be disappointed to know that it is the coach who decides on chosen style of football of his team.
Huw Jenkins made some great appointments & some major errors during his tenure but he did not directly implement “the chosen style of Swansea City” whatever that means. Players like Trundle & Britton played whatever style they were trained for by the coach, not Jenkins. |  | | |
| The possession fallacy on 15:06 - Feb 21 with 1132 views | onehunglow |
| The possession fallacy on 11:41 - Feb 21 by union_jack |
I agree but he’d have to eat a lot of humble pie to drop his choice of keeper (who in my opinion is not to the required standard). As for Grimes, I’ve no idea why he’s not been benched yet. He’s the captain (well in name anyway) but should not be exempt from being dropped even if he has to be ‘rested’ . |
It’s tough to admit defeat but Martin should and do it now.
We can reform and stop this rot overnight and he can do it .
It means a change though
WTching Tottenham play out from the back then stab Citeh in the back was brilliant to behold .
It’s about speed | |
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| The possession fallacy on 16:34 - Feb 21 with 1109 views | STID2017 |
| The possession fallacy on 10:19 - Feb 21 by union_jack |
Yes, but won’t happen. |
That is the biggest worry.
Two of the things that need fixing I feel everyone can see yet he cannot or will not change
If he does not see it then he needs assistants with him to point it out
If he can see it and is ignoring it then that is arrogance beyond belief and will be his undoing | |
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